Coronavirus

[cascadeco]

Obviously we don't know if she does or doesn't have insurance but even some plans even have coverage limits, so who knows. I can only imagine being that every single thing in a hospital has itemized charge, and over a two month period on a ventilator before the cost of the surgery, I can't imagine her total bill being less than $100,000.

I mean... back in like 2006 or so I had an *outpatient* procedure - arrived around 7am, left around 4pm - for a kidney stone blasting procedure. The charge for the urologist plus the anesthesiologist plus the hospital stuff totaled $11,000-ish. And that was for a single non-overnight day, thirteen years ago. My insurance covered most of it of course but I probably payed $200-$400 (I don't remember any longer - I just know whatever it was, it was a relief compared to what the actual charges were for everything) out of pocket for all of that.

With insurance, there is a deductible so one wouldn't have to pay over that, in theory; with good insurance, maybe that would be 1,000 or 1,500. With bare-bones 'emergency' insurance, it might end up being $7,500 or something. But as you say, some things aren't considered covered.

But yeah - for a couple of months of respirator + hospital stay, that alone would probably be in the 500K-1 million range, at least, for pre-insurance charges.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Obviously we don't know if she does or doesn't have insurance but even some plans even have coverage limits, so who knows. I can only imagine being that every single thing in a hospital has itemized charge, and over a two month period on a ventilator before the cost of the surgery, I can't imagine her total bill being less than $100,000.

With insurance, you mean? That sounds about right to me, if you mean with insurance.

A one hour emergency room visit (with a CT scan) runs $10k before insurance/$300 after insurance for me, so I just really can't imagine what 2 months on a ventilator PLUS 10 hour lung transplant would be.

eta: And there's also the issue of doctors/locations being out of network that can surface as a surprise charge after the fact. I mean, even with insurance, it's possible to get seriously fucked.

 

[Stigmata]

Universal healthcare in the USA:

Politicians: bUt HoW WILL wE pAY fOR iT!?!?!?

coronavirus has entered the chat...

Same politicians conjure a 2.2 trillion dollar golden egg, mostly died to bail out/prop up various sectors of industry.

 

[cascadeco]

Universal healthcare in the USA:

Politicians: bUt HoW WILL wE pAY fOR iT!?!?!?

coronavirus has entered the chat...

Same politicians conjure a 2.2 trillion dollar golden egg, mostly died to bail out/prop up various sectors of industry.

As I sadly chuckled with my brother, we all got 'fake money'.

 

[ceecee]

Universal healthcare in the USA:

Politicians: bUt HoW WILL wE pAY fOR iT!?!?!?

coronavirus has entered the chat...

Same politicians conjure a 2.2 trillion dollar golden egg, mostly died to bail out/prop up various sectors of industry.

That's going to be kept a secret. The outcry from conservatives is deafening, much like it is for human rights.

Mnuchin is Keeping $500 Billion in Bailout Funds Secret - Public Citizen

Even better.

This Treasury Official Is Running the Bailout. It’s Been Great for His Family. — ProPublica

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Even though it was explicitly part of the agreement for there to be some form of oversight - they're still refusing.

I fucking hate these people.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah, exposure to what the reality is in other countries definitely helps. I think if more people here (in the U.S.) were more familiar with the way other countries handle health care, then universal healthcare wouldn't be such an unreachable, super-communist, "pie in the sky" radical pipe dream.

Plus it is worth to note that I am from country that has multiple times lower average income. Although our prices and the cost of living are also lower. While on the third hand we have much less natural resources in amount and diversity, which really help in building good healthcare system. On the map of the world my country is "nobody" next to US.


Plus the country is small so when a disease hits it usually hits the whole country at once. What doesn't have to be the case with truly huge countries like US. So it should be easier for US to cover problems since not everyone should be in the problem at once in most situations. This system requires careful attention of people that the politicians don't mess it up but if you can manage to sort that out this totally dominates in solving medical problems for average people. What actually helps small business and freelancers quite a bit since massive medical bills can't disrupt local economic chain(s). Nations that have this truly consider such systems "national treasure". Since it saves lives, family and friends even if you lose everything. (what again saves money in the terms of therapy, alcohol and drunk driving, drugs ... etc)

 

[cascadeco]

+1900 for Florida, what should be fairly clearly the worst day since the start. (while yesterday also had a record of 1700)



Worldometer - Florida

Outside of NY, a lot of states are now entering record high numbers compared to the first few months; North Carolina, Texas, California, and Arizona are also in four digits now, and have been for several days. Earlier on, TX and AZ at least were on the lower side. And, many of the other southeastern states seem to be experiencing a second wave.

 

[Lexicon]

Obviously we don't know if she does or doesn't have insurance but even some plans even have coverage limits, so who knows. I can only imagine being that every single thing in a hospital has itemized charge, and over a two month period on a ventilator before the cost of the surgery, I can't imagine her total bill being less than $100,000.

Bolded- even gauze pads & the single use suture scissors/forceps are charged. When my roommate stayed in the hospital for a week/had laparoscopic surgery [to address a tiny ulcer that made a hole in her small intestine/remove 2-3 liters of pus/clean her peritoneal cavity], her itemized bill prior to insurance deduction was approx $34,000.00 (which is where I saw the gauze, tape, etc charges). She paid a $2,000.00 co-pay/deductible.


Another example of high medical costs here— my single-day outpatient hip surgery bill:

(Personal info redacted)

*the 3rd line up from the bottom w/a multi-date range was just the cost of my CPM machine rental [$950] for post op-passive motion, but the procedure/hospital time itself was just a 1-day outpatient ambulatory surgery visit.

I’m financially poor enough to be on Medicaid, so it cost me $0, but most people with actual lives & livelihood will have a hefty co-pay they’re responsible for.

^^^
That said, I can’t imagine the cost of a lung transplant.
Being on a ventilator for just an hour or so for surgery is included in my bill (but I can’t see it itemized online), so the cost for Covid19 patients to be on one for days-months must be unfathomably astronomical.

Also factoring in prescription pain meds post op, & anti-rejection meds for life, along with all the follow-up doctor visits (probably also for life)... this virus can take a enormous, lifelong financial & physical toll on just one individual.

And, unfortunately, transplanted lungs don’t last terribly long, from what I understand. 10-15yrs until she may need another dual transplant.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Outside of NY, a lot of states are now entering record high numbers compared to the first few months; North Carolina, Texas, California, and Arizona are also in four digits now, and have been for several days. Earlier on, TX and AZ at least were on the lower side. And, many of the other southeastern states seem to be experiencing a second wave.

I know.
While in my book this it is more of a worsening of the first wave, since the problem is fairly present all the time.


Also:
For today US passed +25 000 what means this will be the worst day lately.
While global record from yesterday will probably also be overrun again today. Only 10 000 more to go and plenty of places from where they can come. Since the third world is kicking in even formally.
How will we clean up that I am not fully sure.

 

[Virtual ghost]

+139 500, new global daily record in recorded cases. Next to yesterday's 137 900.



But there are chances that just Brazil throws in another 10 000. (when compared with the last few days)

 

[Vendrah]

I can't even guess. I mean, *sometimes* the hospital will waive the fee - and with so much publicity on this, I wouldn't be super surprised if that's what happens. But otherwise, if it were a quiet event and she had the same treatment, I can guarantee the 'no insurance' cost would be well over $500k. And insurance plans vary wildly, so I wouldn't begin to know how to guess that.

Jesus, $500k to be treated for Corona and all of that stuff?
OMG!
That value is astronomical in any country, even considering that the US has a good purchase power and higher living costs. Now I get it, even people from middle class or mid-high class who doesnt use a public health system does gets the benefit from it, because when the private sector monopolize it they take advantage of a life and death situation to absurdly charge huge amounts of money. And then later they wanted to be called heros, what a joke... Although I know that is more fault of entrepreneurs then people hired to work on hospitals.

Free market = less price (always), another big flat lie.

 

[ceecee]

Even though it was explicitly part of the agreement for there to be some form of oversight - they're still refusing.

I fucking hate these people.

*nods* I now understand much more about populist governments/administrations. Populist governments are useless at handling complex problems of governance, almost by definition. If leaders are fit to govern, they generally don’t need populism to get elected.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Jesus, $500k to be treated for Corona and all of that stuff?
OMG!
That value is astronomical in any country, even considering that the US has a good purchase power and higher living costs. Now I get it, even people from middle class or mid-high class who doesnt use a public health system does gets the benefit from it, because when the private sector monopolize it they take advantage of a life and death situation to absurdly charge huge amounts of money. And then later they wanted to be called heros, what a joke... Although I know that is more fault of entrepreneurs then people hired to work on hospitals.

Free market = less price (always), another big flat lie.

If she doesn't have insurance (and if the hospital doesn't waive a huge part of the cost) then she'll almost certainly have to declare bankruptcy. In her 20s. (Unless she's wealthy, but then if she/her family has wealth then she'd have health insurance).

I'm not exactly sure how this would have been handled if she were on Medicaid. My understanding is that it's next to impossible to get something covered retrospectively by Medicaid - you must be on Medicaid before the issue happens, and I'd be surprised if Medicaid recipients get the same 'above and beyond' options (even if life-saving). And not all places/doctors accept Medicaid. (When I was on Medicaid 20+ years ago, very few doctors accepted it - that may or may not have changed).

 

[Lexicon]

Seattle coronavirus survivor gets a $1.1 million, 181-page hospital bill | The Seattle Times

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm actually relieved to learn a significant amount of the covid hospital bills will be paid. I didn't realize that was part of the agreement. Now I can stop reading stories thinking about the bills. (And I mean, with a ten hour double lung transplant addition, that young woman's bill is probably guaranteed over a million as well).

 

[EcK]

I mean... back in like 2006 or so I had an *outpatient* procedure - arrived around 7am, left around 4pm - for a kidney stone blasting procedure. The charge for the urologist plus the anesthesiologist plus the hospital stuff totaled $11,000-ish. And that was for a single non-overnight day, thirteen years ago. My insurance covered most of it of course but I probably payed $200-$400 (I don't remember any longer - I just know whatever it was, it was a relief compared to what the actual charges were for everything) out of pocket for all of that.

With insurance, there is a deductible so one wouldn't have to pay over that, in theory; with good insurance, maybe that would be 1,000 or 1,500. With bare-bones 'emergency' insurance, it might end up being $7,500 or something. But as you say, some things aren't considered covered.

But yeah - for a couple of months of respirator + hospital stay, that alone would probably be in the 500K-1 million range, at least, for pre-insurance charges.

yeah... 200/300 is the actual cost of the procedure. I have no fucking clue what the rest of the 11,000 is supposed to cover. I'm assuming the insurance only really paid a fraction of that.
It's a sweet deal these ppl get in the USA. Hospitals get to charge absurd amounts to insurance companies, and everyone has to have insurance to have somewhat affordable healthcare, but the insurances only pay a fraction of the fake prices quoted to patients. If that's not a massive price fixing Fraud I don't know what is.

If i went to a private clinic in france to have the same thing they might charge me 1000 euros in total. In Eastern Europe probably less than half that. This is insanity.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Jesus, $500k to be treated for Corona and all of that stuff?
OMG!
That value is astronomical in any country, even considering that the US has a good purchase power and higher living costs. Now I get it, even people from middle class or mid-high class who doesnt use a public health system does gets the benefit from it, because when the private sector monopolize it they take advantage of a life and death situation to absurdly charge huge amounts of money. And then later they wanted to be called heros, what a joke... Although I know that is more fault of entrepreneurs then people hired to work on hospitals.

Free market = less price (always), another big flat lie.

Yeap, here as well. In the case that average person gets 500 000 $ bill they are basically already dead. Here you can buy a decent house in rural area for 20 000, or abandoned for 12 000. (if I am not mistaken). But even if you adjust for the general standard of living this will clearly "distort" your entire life and family.

I'm actually relieved to learn a significant amount of the covid hospital bills will be paid. I didn't realize that was part of the agreement. Now I can stop reading stories thinking about the bills. (And I mean, with a ten hour double lung transplant addition, that young woman's bill is probably guaranteed over a million as well).

Well it was said in the start that the government will help with Covid medical bills. However I never really had too much faith in that because this is too easy to game. Since instead they could charge people for using hospital toilets, for food, for air conditioning, risk management .... etc. On the other hand the key problem is interaction of preconditions and COVID-19. What is something where you can game and distort with ease. After all in current economy most will not be able to afford their none Covid treatments, what is the subject that isn't mentioned all that much from what I see. 10 000 diseases from pre-covid era didn't magically went away with the pandemic (even if that is media narrative). Therefore at the end of the day your best bet is still in trying not to get this virus in the first place. Especially since hospitals are generally number one place where you can catch something, since they are full of sick people. This simply isn't the time for being "clumsy".


I know I am bad at comforting people and I leave that to the others for the most part. I simply prefer to judge based on what I see as likely or problematic.

 

[ceecee]

Seattle coronavirus survivor gets a $1.1 million, 181-page hospital bill | The Seattle Times

Flor said he’s hyper-aware that somebody is paying his million-dollar bill — taxpayers, other insurance customers and so on. “Fears of socialism” have always stopped us from guaranteeing full health care for everyone, he said. But there’s also the gold-plated costs here, twice as expensive per capita as anywhere else in the world.

But there is really nothing left to say. I mean how are insurance company executives going to get huge bonuses and congress get their kickbacks from lobbyists if they have government regulated health care cost?

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

COVID-19: Straight Answers from Top Epidemiologist Who Predicted the Pandemic - Blue Zones