Coronavirus

[anticlimatic]

Ok if you want to reduce this to logic I will play. Over the last few weeks this virus killed about the same number of Europeans as 6 years of war in Ukraine (and the numbers will continue to increase). This is because the response was done too late but still at the time too prevent complete pandemic over the whole continent, what halted the exponential growth in cases. The problem is that mortality rate isn't 1 or 3 percent when there is out of control pandemic since healthcare system can't take everybody. Which is exactly what happened in some parts of Italy and the death cases skyrocketed there. Since you just can't hospitalize large numbers of people, especially since patients for all other diseases are still on the table in this crisis. So if you don't protect your people you will have a complete disaster in the number of cases not that far down the road. Therefore the dilemma behind economy vs. pandemic is actually a false one. If you send everyone to work normally you are just going to deliver people to the virus and the structure will crash anyway in a matter of weeks, and then recovery will last much much longer. Especially if people on various important positions die or people die in very large numbers. What is likely since you can't hospitalize literally half of the country. Plus out of control pandemic will quickly start to chip away healthcare workers or upper management in general. What indicates certain crash in the end even if we overlook "pay to play" healthcare system. Therefore I am sorry but this situation simply doesn't have a strict Capitalistic solution, since this is basically a sub-type of war. It is probably true when people say that USA wasn't built for full stop but in current situation this is more of a structural defect than anything else. Therefore this situations simply require solutions that are out of the box by US standards. However that also implies that those that wasted trillions over the decades should be blamed for the fact that there is no room for maneuvering at this point. Therefore as my authorities that are led by healthcare experts say: Stay at home! (and these are right-wingers)

The fiscal irresponsibility by the American government over the years, which conservatives have long decried and which Trump has done absolutely nothing to curb (his biggest failing in most conservative minds) is finally seeing real on the ground consequences. Spending money like there's no tomorrow is a big problem when tomorrow finally shows up. I agree with you there.

To be clear on why some people in America are worried about the economy though- nobody sees that as a solution to the pandemic, except in the idea that halting the economy (capitalism) can slow it. The problem Americans face is that doing this creates a new pandemic of poverty, which is also deadly.

Its like we are on a space ship with a fire moving through various parts of it at different rates, and we have shut off the oxygen to put it out. There's no easy solution to this. The best we can do is start using doors- keeping the oxygen low in general, and off in areas of the ship that are burning the hardest- but that oxygen can't stay off until the fire is out (vaccine arrival), because the people will suffocate before that happens anyway.

 

[ceecee]

Off Topic.
The man who died after taking Cloroquine didn't consult to any doctor. This could be probably due to different regulation. In Indonesia, Cloroquine cannot be purchased without doctor's prescription although some e-commerce store has begun selling it, breaking the rule. When customers want to buy such medicine, Pharmacist must ask them show the prescription given by physician. CMIIW, In the US, as long as the FDA approves a kind of drugs, they can be freely purchased at the local Pharmacy? So US Citizens don't have to consult to any doctor or ask to write prescription for them, allowing them purchase a specific medication. If from past experience, ill people know that a spesific medicine given by a doctor have helped them recovered, and want to take it again, they are legally allowed to purchase that again expecting the same recovery effect, without having to visit their physician anymore and Pharmacy legally sell it to them

 

[ceecee]

Someone has suggested separate bills, one for the affected workers, one for corporates. The first can be pushed through ASAP. Refusing to do so and putting everything together in an all-or-nothing manner suggests dishonest intentions. Why has no one done this?

They won't do it in this order - it's stupid to give up that kind of leverage. The GOP and lots of Dems aren't interested in helping workers. They're not corporations and they aren't donors of any magnitude - they don't matter. That's why most of the conversation has been about the $500b slush fund for corporations and CEO's.

 

[Jaguar]

Let's get real here. The two sides have different priorities

I'm not on a side. Individuals and businesses—small and large—need to be taken into consideration. All of them. As for Trump? Only a criminal would suggest 'filling churches on Easter' to infect even more people at close range.

 

[Red Herring]

Edmund Stoiber, the former governor of Bavaria, is trying to spread some optimism by reminding people that Germany got through the world financial crisis of 2008 with the GDP only shrinking by 5% and recovered after just one year. We'll see ...

While I share his longterm optimism, I've recently used different language. The German economy is like a cockroach. Almost impossible to kill and around since the dinosaurs they survived. There have been bad times but they always recovered and usually quicker and better than others - often at the cost of others.

The population will suffer, small businesses (and maybe one two big ones) might suffer but the system will stay afloat (independent of whether that is a good or a bad thing). Especially as they are alread putting some money into both companies and freelancers like myself as well as social concerns (you can't be thrown out of your home if you missed rent due to corona, etc). The last few couple of years have been good and public debt could be reduced for several years in a row. It is currently at about 60% of GDP. Unemployment is currently reletively low. They can afford to channel some cash into the economy and help people through this.

 

[Jonny]

I'm not on a side.

Yes, but our governing body does, hence the reference. And of course, we can all agree that "Individuals and businesses—small and large—need to be taken into consideration." That wasn't the disagreement. The disagreement was about specifics.

 

[typologyenthusiast]

[MENTION=20035]anticlimatic[/MENTION][MENTION=20035]Virtual ghost [/MENTION]If governments are confident that they can save both the health and of course life of their people and the economy as well, then why not?. Despite hardly affected, South Korea has chosen not to impose lock down. However, If the government could only choose between the economy or people's health and life, decision that they they would take probably has been apparent: Lock down is imposed in China, France, Italy, UK, Germany, Spain, Malaysia, New Zealand,etc
Such decision is hard one to make. On the health care side, Many factors may influence the decisions. Concerns of overwhelmed health care system because they can't serve more and more patients due to its capacity limit, which is happening in Italy, making health care professional have to choose who they will take care and who they will just leave. This lead to high fatalities number. Unavailability of vaccines, which probably will not available for this pandemic, making people are vulnerable to be infected because of not artificially immune. Non compliance of social or physical distancing also counts. People who don't take this seriously nor listen to it, still gather together: have party, attend concert, religious activities, get packed in public transport for commuting , watch cinema, play some sports, queuing in groceries cashier, holding conferences and meeting for professionals, etc, as they usually do, as if we didn't have a pandemic situation, all of which is predictably making infected cases increasing, to the level of probably no longer manageable to especially hospitals .
Probably how fast the increase of infection cases in each country has also to be taken into account. If the country has decent transportation infrastructure, that allows people to travel arround the country the virus might spread faster within it than country without.
But on the economy side, if people are no longer work, they won't get paid, how will they make a living?If people must stay at home, because of the government restriction, the gov must prepare for aid for them. Travel restrictions, for example, has been affected the aviation company. Without the travelers that use their transportation service, they can't make revenue and will highly likely lay their employees off. Can you imagine if this happens also with other sectors? Who will be able to pay the income tax if no professional is working, corporate tax if aviation companies don't make any revenue. How long government administrations will last, if taxpayers who don't work anylonger failed to pay tax.
But I suppose every Government has their own calculation of How long that they can hold the lock down. I read a news that President of Indonesia has inspected rice warehouse to check how long rice stock approximately will be available, just in case lock down scenario takes place.

 

[Jaguar]

And of course, we can all agree that "Individuals and businesses—small and large—need to be taken into consideration." That wasn't the disagreement. The disagreement was about specifics.

There is no "we can all agree" going on. Not in the forum, and not in the government.

 

[Vendrah]

Brazil president Bolsonaro (far right) goes to media press to campaign against the quarantine.

Brazil's Jair Bolsonaro says coronavirus crisis is a media trick | World news | The Guardian

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...127c48-6e35-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html

Brazil'''s Bolsonaro Again Says Coronavirus Concern Overblown - The New York Times

Directly aligned with the brazilian super rich that doesnt want quarantine either.

 

[Mind Maverick]

More senators join in on the chorus of people calling out Rand Paul....Rand Paul absolutely belongs in Jail. They put people in jail left and right for this kind of stuff. No reason to give Rand Paul a pass. If anything, he deserves an even higher penalty given that he is a Senator.

'''Absolutely irresponsible''': Rand Paul'''s colleagues are calling him out after he reportedly went to the gym after testing for coronavirus

Tbh there needs to be a penalty for anyone doing this kind of shit.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Brazil president Bolsonaro (far right) goes to media press to campaign against the quarantine.

Brazil's Jair Bolsonaro says coronavirus crisis is a media trick | World news | The Guardian

https://www.washingtonpost.com/poli...127c48-6e35-11ea-a156-0048b62cdb51_story.html

Brazil'''s Bolsonaro Again Says Coronavirus Concern Overblown - The New York Times

Directly aligned with the brazilian super rich that doesnt want quarantine either.

What the fuck is wrong with this guy...every day he proves that yes, someone actually can get worse, just when you think he can't get any worse

 

[Mind Maverick]

I wonder how long it's going to take for the economy to bounce back.

 

[Maou]

I wonder how long it's going to take for the economy to bounce back.

I think as soon as people return to work, it will come back quickly. If you compare this to WW2, and their economic retooling. It also bounced back really well.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The fiscal irresponsibility by the American government over the years, which conservatives have long decried and which Trump has done absolutely nothing to curb (his biggest failing in most conservative minds) is finally seeing real on the ground consequences. Spending money like there's no tomorrow is a big problem when tomorrow finally shows up. I agree with you there.

To be clear on why some people in America are worried about the economy though- nobody sees that as a solution to the pandemic, except in the idea that halting the economy (capitalism) can slow it. The problem Americans face is that doing this creates a new pandemic of poverty, which is also deadly.

Its like we are on a space ship with a fire moving through various parts of it at different rates, and we have shut off the oxygen to put it out. There's no easy solution to this. The best we can do is start using doors- keeping the oxygen low in general, and off in areas of the ship that are burning the hardest- but that oxygen can't stay off until the fire is out (vaccine arrival), because the people will suffocate before that happens anyway.

Well, despite all things I generally support I am still relatively fiscally conservative, since bankrupting the system will not help anyone. Plus it seems that my government is smart enough to give money on the basis of how much workers you keep. So the money will mostly go to minimal wages as it seems.


So the story goes something like this:

From what I gathered here the plan is to impose very strong lock-down so that all cases get localizes and cured if possible (what shouldn't take too long). Therefore even if the world is strongly hit we should be able to have our country operational and perhaps even make some gains. For that reason getting in and out of the country isn't really possible for individuals. Also for the traveling outside of your city/town you need a permit that confirms that this is justified, everything but most essential is closed down (like food production/distribution, public safety, drug stores etc), all public gatherings from sports, culture or religion are forbidden. Loans, mortgages, rents and similar are or will be frozen. Here the private sector isn't that big so the government can pay minimum wage for some time, especially since the public debt isn't in the red (and good chunk is essential and therefore it will work anyway). The catch is that if the country is basically in complete hibernation that also means that the costs as well will be low since you are killing both income and the costs. Therefore expenses will be reduced to food and similar basic stuff, which you can place on a credit card if you are broke. Plus the government has to cover all of my medical bills if there are any, however since we are all mostly at home there wouldn't be any for the most. In genuinely capitalistic country this isn't really possible but being able to just freeze everything can be gold when shit really hits. In a way I am blessed to be in the country that was legally built in a way to keep in mind that eventually there will be another major crisis (since the country was forged in even deeper crisis than what we currently have).




Plus if you think that your current situation is bad just wait that some wild cards hit on the top of all this. My city the other day got rocked by strongest earthquake in 140 years, it wasn't ultra powerful but it really did damage plenty of infrastructure (parliament building is out). Plus on the top of that the snow is falling for the last 3 days. Therefore I don't even want to think what would have happened in the case that we don't have deeply developed "welfare culture and welfare system" in this situation. This would really be the end since no one is really accepting refugees at this point. Therefore for me all this talk about money, poverty or whatever is BS if it doesn't lead to physical survival. Since at the end of the day all money is monopoly money in these digital days. Through my life I went through 3 different currencies and 4th is on the way, even if I am living in the same city entire life. Therefore for me once you survive the apocalypse it is easy to restart everything, especially if infrastructure stands and people are ok. In a way this is a lot like the story of 3 pigs, which are trying to resist the wolf through building houses. While in the end only the robust/complex system protected from serious crisis, from which America was spared for the most part. Therefore I am unapologetic into the face of very pro-market liberal people, since they are likely to be those whose houses will not hold when wolf finally shows up.




Plus this is just so that it doesn't look as if I am making stuff up. Corona, plus earthquake, plus economy, plus the loss of parliament, plus windy snowstorm for day ... and we still hold things together (only 2 people died thus far, teen in earthquake and one old guy from still unclear medical reasons).

The survival is fundamentally the question of will and competence, not money.


Just my 2 cents on the issue.

 

[Luminous]

My heart is breaking for all the people in countries who are so much worse off than China, Italy, or America, and for those who are homeless in the ones I listed. People who have to choose between getting and/or spreading the virus and possibly starving to death. People in Brazil where the organized crime drug gangs care more about people's health than their own president. I wish there were ways to help them all. I feel so powerless.

 

[EcK]

I think as soon as people return to work, it will come back quickly. If you compare this to WW2, and their economic retooling. It also bounced back really well.

Yeah, the issue is that when people get back to work so will the epidemic. Very virulent strains usually only die off because of herd immunity (they spread too fast for their own good basically) - there is only a point to imposed isolation if it's done to built up capacity in hospitals etc. but that's not how we'll stop the epidemic. Anyone who says otherwise is a fucking idiot.

 

[Virtual ghost]

My heart is breaking for all the people in countries who are so much worse off than China, Italy, or America, and for those who are homeless in the ones I listed. People who have to choose between getting and/or spreading the virus and possibly starving to death. People in Brazil where the organized crime drug gangs care more about people's health than their own president. I wish there were ways to help them all. I feel so powerless.

Well, the good news is that at least it is spring, so we will probably have easier time with food supply in the incoming months.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah, send them to work.

 

[á´…eparted]

Its about fucking time some groups are realizing that parroting falsehoods is actually dangerous.

Washington state radio station won't air Trump briefings because of 'false or misleading information' | TheHill

 

[Vendrah]

What the fuck is wrong with this guy...every day he proves that yes, someone actually can get worse, just when you think he can't get any worse

Yes, exactly...

But the worse thing to understand is his supporters.. Today many Whatsapp groups on my phone bombed messages against the quarantine, including a article from New York Time supporting the end of quarantine, except that it wasnt an article from New York Times at all, people just faked it to make an impact.

The catch is that if the country is basically in complete hibernation that also means that the costs as well will be low since you are killing both income and the costs. Therefore expenses will be reduced to food and similar basic stuff, which you can place on a credit card if you are broke. Plus the government has to cover all of my medical bills if there are any, however since we are all mostly at home there wouldn't be any for the most. In genuinely capitalistic country this isn't really possible but being able to just freeze everything can be gold when shit really hits. In a way I am blessed to be in the country that was legally built in a way to keep in mind that eventually there will be another major crisis (since the country was forged in even deeper crisis than what we currently have).

Plus if you think that your current situation is bad just wait that some wild cards hit on the top of all this. My city the other day got rocked by strongest earthquake in 140 years, it wasn't ultra powerful but it really did damage plenty of infrastructure (parliament building is out). Plus on the top of that the snow is falling for the last 3 days. Therefore I don't even want to think what would have happened in the case that we don't have deeply developed "welfare culture and welfare system" in this situation. This would really be the end since no one is really accepting refugees at this point. Therefore for me all this talk about money, poverty or whatever is BS if it doesn't lead to physical survival. Since at the end of the day all money is monopoly money in these digital days. Through my life I went through 3 different currencies and 4th is on the way, even if I am living in the same city entire life. Therefore for me once you survive the apocalypse it is easy to restart everything, especially if infrastructure stands and people are ok. In a way this is a lot like the story of 3 pigs, which are trying to resist the wolf through building houses. While in the end only the robust/complex system protected from serious crisis, from which America was spared for the most part. Therefore I am unapologetic into the face of very pro-market liberal people, since they are likely to be those whose houses will not hold when wolf finally shows up.

(...)

The survival is fundamentally the question of will and competence, not money.


Just my 2 cents on the issue.

Thanks for explaining the issue in a calm, patient, friendly and rational way.

Your catch is something that people should be catching... It is just a matter of hibernation. Im sorry if I repeat a little bit but I want to do a highlight here. If the market were that super B, then hibernate shouldnt be an issue. The market, on its own will, should be able to hibernate until necessary without any crisis created after the hibernation is gone. However, most pro-market people seems to be really desperate, to the point of making whole nations sick in long term, just to save a system that seems to collapse just because things have to freeze for a while. In these days, we have good food preservatives (that same ones criticized so much in these last years), many things we already buy normally last months, and focused food on that matter can even last an year or two. Just keeping the essential services, hibernation is something that could be possible (without crashes after comeback) even for an year or two.

My pro-market people on my country are desperate and doing whatever they can for non-stopping. They want even jewerly and (think any non-essential store) opens because, you know, they say its just a flu. They will, as usual, ruin statistics to serve their purposes as their support (is not for nothing that sometimes I am criticized for using and backing stuff with statistics, even in gaming; is not for nothing that some people see statistics as useless, because with bad use it is, really). Im sorry to be this direct, but I think there is a lesson to be learned here: In the end, not even them believe in the market for real. They wouldnt be freaking out and pointing themselves several bad stuff that going to happen: Unemployment even if there is effectively more work to be done after the quarantine than in years (market failing to allocate and structure work), hunger/starving (market failing to properly distribute food; This links with too much Gini coefficient and bad income and wealth distribution), company´s bankrupting (the reduce of income by NOT being followed by reduces of cost as you pointed, even if that is just logical) and other stuff they eventually like to point out. Actually, even I had a more optimistic view of the market, since as [MENTION=37565]Maou[/MENTION] I also believed that it will bounce back well, but pro-market people, specially the brazilian ones, actually disagrees.

My heart is breaking for all the people in countries who are so much worse off than China, Italy, or America, and for those who are homeless in the ones I listed. People who have to choose between getting and/or spreading the virus and possibly starving to death. People in Brazil where the organized crime drug gangs care more about people's health than their own president. I wish there were ways to help them all. I feel so powerless.

Thanks for your consideration, really.
I feel powerless as well, but I already been feeling that for a long time.