Coronavirus

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm more inclined to see it as human frailty than stupidity. There's a strong tendency in people to defer to sources we trust - which, when done correctly, is actually the smartest thing we can do (outsourcing our problems to the right experts will help us function and thrive exponentially more than if we attempt to figure EVERYTHING out on our own; for example, going to an emergency room for a broken leg will yield better results than not seeking any outside help for it).

But we can get sleepy about which sources to trust. A lot of those sources people have come to trust are telling them that masks are basically like how the left would perceive government mandated maga hats. When I look at it that way, things as shitheaded as this:

...(posted by shithead on my Fb list) *almost* make sense. I say "almost" because these people are literally gambling with the lives and possible permanent organ damage of other people. And it seems to me like when the stakes are that high, maybe a bit more energy should be put into researching it than going whole hog with what neighbors/friends/leaders feel cocksure about - which is how I feel about climate change too - but human frailty is such that when sources we trust are super cocksure about something, that confidence (regardless of how unmerited it is) is contagious.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

'It's propaganda': Anti-mask crowd rallies at Ohio capital, derides doctors, claims government overreach

They said infection and mortality data are being manipulated.

They said — through bullhorns and with signs and on T-shirts — that Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine is a helicopter parent who’s got it all wrong.

“It’s not connecting to the science. It’s propaganda,” said Cherrelyn Pierson of Marysville, Ohio, who said she works in a health-related field and understands virus transmission.

“I trust myself,” Pierson said. “I am the science.”
​

Imagine saying "I am the science" and feeling like it makes sense.

 

[ceecee]

'It's propaganda': Anti-mask crowd rallies at Ohio capital, derides doctors, claims government overreach

They said infection and mortality data are being manipulated.

They said — through bullhorns and with signs and on T-shirts — that Ohio Gov. Mike DeWine is a helicopter parent who’s got it all wrong.

“It’s not connecting to the science. It’s propaganda,” said Cherrelyn Pierson of Marysville, Ohio, who said she works in a health-related field and understands virus transmission.

“I trust myself,” Pierson said. “I am the science.”
​

Imagine saying "I am the science" and feeling like it makes sense.

The thing is, this sort of stuff appears to have happened in 1918 - 1920 too. Not on this level and not to this degree of crazy but the same sorts of thing.

Like the mass graves and dead bodies actually meant the left is unleashing a poison that only looks like the virus and they're infecting big cities but are targeting Trump voters and conservatives because the left are the actual fascists and want to have a world full of gay and lesbian orgies in the street doing drugs and dancing or some other subversive things that they can't talk about because QAnon said the awakening is right around the corner, then the world will know the truth.

 

[anticlimatic]

Honesty this mask looks about as effective to me as most of the government sanctioned masks/bandannas I see people wearing around made of stretchy pretty cheese cloth or breathable cotton. Listening to the government can be just as dumb as ignoring it, and people are not made more special or intelligent based on their brand of partisanship. That all boils down to individual thinking, and the sooner people realize this the sooner they can actually begin to enjoy their lives instead of clinging to their rage like it's doing them or society any good.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Honesty this mask looks about as effective to me as most of the government sanctioned masks/bandannas I see people wearing around made of stretchy pretty cheese cloth or breathable cotton. Listening to the government can be just as dumb as ignoring it, and people are not made more special or intelligent based on their brand of partisanship. That all boils down to individual thinking, and the sooner people realize this the sooner they can actually begin to enjoy their lives instead of clinging to their rage like it's doing them or society any good.

Please stick to the no contact request you started.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

The thing is, this sort of stuff appears to have happened in 1918 - 1920 too. Not on this level and not to this degree of crazy but the same sorts of thing.

I've seen references to it but haven't read much about it. Did they also feel like it was political propaganda? I should look that up at some point.

 

[ceecee]

I've seen references to it but haven't read much about it. Did they also feel like it was political propaganda? I should look that up at some point.

Mask resistance during a pandemic isn't new – in 1918 many Americans were 'slackers'

Utah’s board of health considered issuing a mandatory statewide mask order but decided against it, arguing that citizens would take false security in the effectiveness of masks and relax their vigilance. As the epidemic resurged, Oakland tabled its debate over a second mask order after the mayor angrily recounted his arrest in Sacramento for not wearing a mask. A prominent physician in attendance commented that “if a cave man should appear…he would think the masked citizens all lunatics.”

I've not read anything about political propaganda exactly but much of the attitudes mirror the ones held by the right now. Had they possessed social media the way we do, yes I'm totally sure they would have claimed the H1N1 outbreak was fake news, exactly like they do now.

 

[anticlimatic]

While everyone is bitching about masks, please remember to continue bitching about social distancing too- since masks barely work without it. I see a lot of people masked up and packed into restaurants. Focusing strictly on the mask part is giving a lot of people a false sense of security by putting one on, and one form of ignorance is just as dangerous as another.

 

[Stigmata]

Trump Supporter co-worker: "Watch what I tell you, bro. After the election all this covid stuff is just gonna disappear..."

Me:

 

[Lexicon]

Trump Supporter co-worker: "Watch what I tell you, bro. After the election all this covid stuff is just gonna disappear..."

Me:

It’s beyond bonkers that these people believe the entire world is punking them to impact the USA presidential election. I mean, that’s gotta be part of their ‘logic,’ right?

 

[Stigmata]

It’s beyond bonkers that these people believe the entire world is punking them to impact the USA presidential election. I mean, that’s gotta be part of their ‘logic,’ right?

What kills me the most are just the sheer amount of people I've come across that seem to believe this stuff. It almost makes me feel like I'm losing my mind -- I guess I just never realized just how deep the right-wing propaganda machine goes down here.

 

[ceecee]

What kills me the most are just the sheer amount of people I've come across that seem to believe this stuff. It almost makes me feel like I'm losing my mind -- I guess I just never realized just how deep the right-wing propaganda machine goes down here.

I think so many right wingers/conservatives are rage-a-holics, they have to have something to be pissed about 24/7. So the right wing propaganda machine goes into overdrive just to keep them pissed. Why does Fox News report on irrelevant shit daily?

That's also why they lecture people about social distancing in a Captain Obvious way - they'l never get the cultural respect they feel entitled to so they have to dip into the left rhetoric just a little. They seriously believe that COVID is part of the culture war and the right wingers/conservatives are going to win it by not wearing masks, packing restaurants, even dying. To own the libs. That's why it feels so insane.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

It’s beyond bonkers that these people believe the entire world is punking them to impact the USA presidential election. I mean, that’s gotta be part of their ‘logic,’ right?

Cause nobody ever lies and conspires, except if it has something to do with Russia and Donald Trump. The WHO and China suppressed information from us. China quarantined Wuhan from the rest of China but allowed them to travel to America.

How China Corrupted the World Health Organization’s Response to COVID-19 – Reason.com

The World Health Organization (WHO) put out questionable guidance on how to deal with the coronavirus, it was slow to communicate the magnitude of the threat, and it whitewashed the Chinese government's early handling of the crisis.

President Donald Trump, who put a hold on WHO funding yesterday, isn't absolved of his own failures in confronting COVID-19. But there's no doubt that the WHO's response destroyed much of its credibility, damaged the field of public health, and failed to contain the pandemic.

The WHO's actions in response to COVID-19, in part, stemmed from its overly deferential stance towards China, which is its second-biggest financial contributor among 194 member states.

"A phenomenal collective action by the people of China to this response" is how Bruce Aylward, head of the joint WHO-China mission, described China's handling of the outbreak on February 25, 2020, a day after WHO Director-General Tedros Adhanom Ghebreyesus praised China's "rapid response," which he claimed "changed the course of this epidemic."

The WHO also praised China for releasing the virus's genome while neglecting to mention that it took them at least 17 days to do so. It didn't report human-to-human transmission until late January—even though Chinese doctors suspected it at least a month earlier. Although the extreme lockdown of Wuhan likely saved thousands of lives, WHO scientists weren't allowed into Wuhan until 3 weeks after the outbreak first came to light, leaving open many questions about measures the government took in the interim. Meanwhile, the WHO praised the country for its supposed openness.

"China took action at the epicenter, and that helped prevent the spread to other provinces and the rest of the world," Ghebreyesus said on February 15.

"As China has shown, this does not need to be a pandemic if we take action," WHO Executive Director Michael Ryan said on February 28.

As the virus continued spreading across Europe and reached America, the WHO recommended "no interference with international travel."

One country that ignored this advice was Taiwan, which also warned the WHO that it suspected that the virus was spreading through human-to-human transmission, yet was ignored. Taiwan, which has one of the lowest rates of known COVID-19 infections per capita, was prevented from joining the WHO as a member country in 2015 by China, which refuses to acknowledge Taiwan's independence.

In late March, World Health Organization epidemiologist Bruce Aylward declined to answer a Hong Kong reporter's question about Taiwan—or even acknowledge its existence.

As Taiwan was distributing face masks to its citizens, the WHO was advising the rest of the world that they were unnecessary—and initially, the Centers for Disease Control and U.S. Surgeon General followed its lead.

But health experts pointed to mounting evidence that masks can help slow the spread of respiratory disease, especially among asymptomatic carriers, a population that the WHO maintains is virtually nonexistent despite mounting evidence to the contrary.

In mid-February, the WHO trumpeted good news from China, claiming confirmed and suspected cases of COVID-19 had declined, ignoring evidence that it may have been a statistical anomaly. U.S. intelligence, meanwhile, believes that China has entirely misrepresented both case numbers and death tolls, according to Bloomberg News.

Finally on March 11, after Italy was already in full national lockdown with more than 10,000 cases, the WHO finally acknowledged the true magnitude of the crisis, declaring a global pandemic.

As the death toll climbs above 100,000, the global economy remains in crisis, and billions of lives are disrupted, it's important to remember that if the World Health Organization had done its job, the nightmare we're living through might not have happened at all.

 

[Lexicon]

Cause nobody ever lies and conspires, except if it has something to do with Russia and Donald Trump.

I’m really not sure how you got that out of my statement.

The WHO and China suppressed information from us. China quarantined Wuhan from the rest of China but allowed them to travel to America.

How China Corrupted the World Health Organization’s Response to COVID-19 – Reason.com

While I appreciate the effort to add context, I don’t consider political magazine sites like Reason.com to be a reputable source for medical information. I’m sure this whole thing could’ve been handled better by many, but that wasn’t what I was referring to in my previous post. I was referring to how crazy it is that anyone thinks this pandemic shouldn’t be taken seriously. Sounded to me like the guy Stig was talking about was doing just that, & his reasoning for downplaying the severity makes no sense to me.

 

[Coriolis]

Why am I seeing people wearing masks while alone in their cars in traffic?

I have heard several people remark that having a mask on reminds them not to touch their face when they have been out in public and might be unable to wash or sanitize their hands. There might be other reasons as well.

While everyone is bitching about masks, please remember to continue bitching about social distancing too- since masks barely work without it. I see a lot of people masked up and packed into restaurants. Focusing strictly on the mask part is giving a lot of people a false sense of security by putting one on, and one form of ignorance is just as dangerous as another.

Of course. Distancing comes first. I bitched about that even before the pandemic. Masks are just for when that isn't possible. And masks do help. There are more and more data to support that.

In a recent study, even mosquito netting placed over the bell of a brass musical instrument significantly reduces the number of particles expelled, with minimal impact to the sound. Yes, there are groups studying the aerosol particles emitted during performing arts activities such as instrument playing, singing, and stage acting, to provide data on which to base guidelines for conducting performances safely. They started with brass and woodwind instruments first to support attempts to reopen schools with band programs.

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I’m really not sure how you got that out of my statement.





While I appreciate the effort to add context, I don’t consider political magazine sites like Reason.com to be a reputable source for medical information. I’m sure this whole thing could’ve been handled better by many, but that wasn’t what I was referring to in my previous post. I was referring to how crazy it is that anyone thinks this pandemic shouldn’t be taken seriously. Sounded to me like the guy Stig was talking about was doing just that, & his reasoning for downplaying the severity makes no sense to me.

You said something along the lines "I don't understand why people think the whole world is punking America." We are being lied to by people in the field of public health. That makes people take it less seriously. And we all know that WHO has had consistency problems in their statements and they've lied. One day they say it is "very rare" for asymptomatic people to spread it (during the protests). The next day, everyone feels conned and they walk it back. These things are a problem and it isn't just the WHO doing it.

 

[Lexicon]

You said something along the lines "I don't understand why people think the whole world is punking America." We are being lied to by people in the field of public health. That makes people take it less seriously. And we all know that WHO has had consistency problems in their statements and they've lied. One day they say it is "very rare" for asymptomatic people to spread it (during the protests). The next day, everyone feels conned and they walk it back. These things are a problem and it isn't just the WHO doing it.

I said it’s bonkers for people to believe Covid19 will magically disappear after the election. My question about the poor logic behind that idea was more rhetorical than anything else. Whatever the reasoning, to believe a pandemic that’s killed so many worldwide in such a short amount of time is going to simply evaporate after ballots are counted in one measly country is just absurd by any standard, whatever your political leanings might be.

 

[anticlimatic]

I have heard several people remark that having a mask on reminds them not to touch their face when they have been out in public and might be unable to wash or sanitize their hands. There might be other reasons as well. Of course. Distancing comes first. I bitched about that even before the pandemic. Masks are just for when that isn't possible. And masks do help. There are more and more data to support that. In a recent study, even mosquito netting placed over the bell of a brass musical instrument significantly reduces the number of particles expelled, with minimal impact to the sound. Yes, there are groups studying the aerosol particles emitted during performing arts activities such as instrument playing, singing, and stage acting, to provide data on which to base guidelines for conducting performances safely. They started with brass and woodwind instruments first to support attempts to reopen schools with band programs.

A little is better than nothing. Since we recently discovered that the virus is airborne in micro droplets, and cloth face masks do not protect against micro droplets, I'd really like to see more encouragement towards a better caliber of mask though. In a pinch maybe keep the cloth ones as a better than nothing approach, but if we are trying to keep up with the science in regards to protocol I'd like to see the bar raised on a general recommendations level. That way people who want to take it seriously can do so with accurate data, instead of everyone having to deal with data that has been tainted to manipulate people (likely, in the case of masks, to prevent citizens buying out all the N95s over a weekend). I'd rather have a temporary shortage followed by increased production than bad data for months instead.

The new thing im seeing now is just a plastic cup shield hovering in front of the mouth like a visor. The bar seems to be going in the opposite direction as the evidence. I also think we would see a lot more social distancing if people wore quality masks, since it's not very easy to breathe in them, and nobody would want to hang around wearing them for any longer than they absolutely had to.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Mask resistance during a pandemic isn't new – in 1918 many Americans were 'slackers'



I've not read anything about political propaganda exactly but much of the attitudes mirror the ones held by the right now. Had they possessed social media the way we do, yes I'm totally sure they would have claimed the H1N1 outbreak was fake news, exactly like they do now.

LOL @ caveman comment. And:

Denver salesperson refused because she said her “nose went to sleep” every time she put one on.
​

I recently started a book about the history of the U.S. postal system (Start Spreading the News), and the author told the story about how Tocqueville explored the U.S. in the early 1800s expecting to find uneducated savages - and he was surprised to discover that even those who lived most remotely were well educated about current events in the world. He gave credit to the postal system for timely delivery of newspapers. I wonder how an early 1800s pandemic would have played out. (Granted, there was *a lot* more physical distancing between people, but I mean specifically in regard to 'making use of education' vs. 'FREEDOM!!1!').

 

[Grand Admiral Crunch]

I said it’s bonkers for people to believe Covid19 will magically disappear after the election. My question about the poor logic behind that idea was more rhetorical than anything else. Whatever the reasoning, to believe a pandemic that’s killed so many worldwide in such a short amount of time is going to simply evaporate after ballots are counted in one measly country is just absurd by any standard, whatever your political leanings might be.

A while back, I was watching a White House press conference on CSPAN. All the reporters were out on the lawn, wearing masks and social distancing 6 feet from each other. When the news conference was over and most cameras were put away, the reporters started huddling together to chat and they took off their masks. That tells me all I need to know about what they think of coronavirus. It's been politicized for sure.

I don't think the after effects of this are ever going away though. This is part of our culture now.