Coronavirus

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Politicians like DeSantis also have to consider the deaths that will result from not opening up the economy. Fauci is only looking at deaths from Covid-19 while ignoring the deaths from suicide here in the USA and starvation (300,000 are projected to die of starvation because of the economic shut-down) in 3rd World nations because of the economic shut-down.

Compared to the governors of NY, NJ, MA,CT, IL, MI, MD, RI, DE, and PA, DeSantis has done a terrific job. Florida is still under 200 deaths/million while NJ is at 1757 deaths/million.

damn democrat party texas gold standard trump jesus democrat party cult

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

He likely has some extreme political pressure on his choices. From what I understand Disney is a brutal corporation, so I'm sure he has mobster-level pressure from them. He might also prioritize his power relationships over the lives of his constituents.

damn democrat party make it illegal to charge cops with crimes libertarian fascism 2020

 

[Jaguar]

Joe Biden builds 5-point lead over Donald Trump in red Texas as some voters sour on handling of virus

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

As long as our public officials prioritize politics over science, COVID will have the upper hand.

What I am also having trouble understanding is how many people, who have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by dismissing COVID-19, are embracing these leaders. The attitudes that are happening among great numbers of people are inconceivable. They will trade their lives or the lives of people they love for a few moments in an imaginary world of safety?

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

What I am also having trouble understanding is how many people, who have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by dismissing COVID-19, are embracing these leaders. The attitudes that are happening among great numbers of people are inconceivable. They will trade their lives or the lives of people they love for a few moments in an imaginary world of safety?

They wish to gain power by sacrificing to yog-sothoth.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

What I am also having trouble understanding is how many people, who have absolutely nothing to gain and everything to lose by dismissing COVID-19, are embracing these leaders. The attitudes that are happening among great numbers of people are inconceivable. They will trade their lives or the lives of people they love for a few moments in an imaginary world of safety?

I think what happens (and this isn't coming from me, I've read this analysis elsewhere a couple times now and it resonates) is that the other side tosses their own "expert science opinion" into the pot and - since most people haven't been following virology or epidemiology themselves (typically we lend credit to those who have systematically proven their competence over a span of time in the background of our purview) - the credit is extended by proxy (with a nod from those to whom we do give credit), instead of considering the experts credentials. I'm not even confident most people know how to evaluate credentials in this context. But anyway, so much "expert opinion" is being thrown into the pot so thick and fast that I think it stuns people into believing that NO "expert opinion" is clearly more trustworthy and so they simply back the horse of their tribe.

This is mostly extrapolated from theories that people like Trump don't actually expect their supporters to believe every word they say so much as they pathologically lie with the goal of making people feel like there is no actual truth - or that no one actually knows the truth, and/or that *all* politicians lie so you may as well back the liar with your values. Or something. It's late, I'm tired and probably explaining this poorly. In short, I think these leaders have a way of throwing shade that effectively projects their own dishonesty onto the leaders who have shown caution. It's all just a power game to the shitheads who want to open things up, and they have effectively made it look (to their base) like it's a power game to those who want to exercise caution. Reality is starting to prove them wrong.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Globally yesterday was a day bellow +200 000 after a week of really bad numbers.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

I think what happens (and this isn't coming from me, I've read this analysis elsewhere a couple times now and it resonates) is that the other side tosses their own "expert science opinion" into the pot and - since most people haven't been following virology or epidemiology themselves (typically we lend credit to those who have systematically proven their competence over a span of time in the background of our purview) - the credit is extended by proxy (with a nod from those to whom we do give credit), instead of considering the experts credentials. I'm not even confident most people know how to evaluate credentials in this context. But anyway, so much "expert opinion" is being thrown into the pot so thick and fast that I think it stuns people into believing that NO "expert opinion" is clearly more trustworthy and so they simply back the horse of their tribe.

This is mostly extrapolated from theories that people like Trump don't actually expect their supporters to believe every word they say so much as they pathologically lie with the goal of making people feel like there is no actual truth - or that no one actually knows the truth, and/or that *all* politicians lie so you may as well back the liar with your values. Or something. It's late, I'm tired and probably explaining this poorly. In short, I think these leaders have a way of throwing shade that effectively projects their own dishonesty onto the leaders who have shown caution. It's all just a power game to the shitheads who want to open things up, and they have effectively made it look (to their base) like it's a power game to those who want to exercise caution. Reality is starting to prove them wrong.

That is a good explanation. It sounds related to projection or transference. Enough confusion is thrown into the mix that the lowest common denominator is assumed, and people freely project the lies and ineptitude of what is often heard from people with social power, but not intellectual power/ability, onto people who do have intellectual power because it is all assumed to be a social dynamic.

I do sense a pervasive social reasoning being imposed onto the virus. It sometimes feels like people are using social tactics for power with the virus. Dismissal and bullying are effective in gaining social power, but a virus can't response socially. It even appears that people use this subconscious social negotiation with a feeling that "I already quarantined, I've done x, y, z, and now it's your turn to give a little", but of course the virus isn't going to back down. It may "require" more than is socially reasonable.

To survive this you do have to "submit" to the virus by operating entirely on its terms. The word choice isn't fitting, but it is meant to convey this pervasive social reasoning and the only way it can relate to the virus. Perhaps this is why people fight it - to not feel powerless. This entire situation has made me realize the predominance of human thinking is based on social power dynamics and appearances. Negotiation of "truth" is based on whose construct of reality can dominate by using social power dynamics. Then along comes a virus that operates outside of this.

 

[ceecee]

I think what happens (and this isn't coming from me, I've read this analysis elsewhere a couple times now and it resonates) is that the other side tosses their own "expert science opinion" into the pot and - since most people haven't been following virology or epidemiology themselves (typically we lend credit to those who have systematically proven their competence over a span of time in the background of our purview) - the credit is extended by proxy (with a nod from those to whom we do give credit), instead of considering the experts credentials. I'm not even confident most people know how to evaluate credentials in this context. But anyway, so much "expert opinion" is being thrown into the pot so thick and fast that I think it stuns people into believing that NO "expert opinion" is clearly more trustworthy and so they simply back the horse of their tribe.

This is mostly extrapolated from theories that people like Trump don't actually expect their supporters to believe every word they say so much as they pathologically lie with the goal of making people feel like there is no actual truth - or that no one actually knows the truth, and/or that *all* politicians lie so you may as well back the liar with your values. Or something. It's late, I'm tired and probably explaining this poorly. In short, I think these leaders have a way of throwing shade that effectively projects their own dishonesty onto the leaders who have shown caution. It's all just a power game to the shitheads who want to open things up, and they have effectively made it look (to their base) like it's a power game to those who want to exercise caution. Reality is starting to prove them wrong.

Right. So they have to resort to attacking the reality, there isn't much left for them to attack.

White House attacks Fauci as states see record new coronavirus cases – live updates | US news | The Guardian

Or distracting. Or outright lies. I assume Trump and the Republicans felt people would simply get use to it and not question at some point. Since that's not working either, they'll try anything. But I think people are at the point where they are sick of this administration and their bullshit and the supporters living in some fantasy world.

 

[Mind Maverick]

Lol good god...IDK why my state keeps trying to put a curfew on my city...every time they try they have to cancel after only a few days due to violent protests about it...I knew the people here were crazy, but damn...considering I'm living out of my car though, this makes me very happy.

 

[Virtual ghost]

The American story that you have to consider hunger deaths before you consider limiting economy is incomplete picture (after all this is where the government should come in). On other words if you focus purely on economy as nothing is going on you are basically ignoring the pandemic problem. While the numbers are rising and therefore in the end you will get plenty of corona deaths by basically ignoring the issue, since you placed the focus on the wrong thing. What basically happened when you don't have a coordinated brief response and thus you ended with the saga of pandemic. Problem is that just because economy is open that doesn't mean that it can work with profit. Since now people tend to buy only the most basic stuff and therefore everyone who isn't in that business is in problems. However as you keep things open in uncontrolled fashion and defy medical science regarding how the virus is spreading you only make sure that demand remains low on the long run. Therefore you are running businesses to the ground on the long run if you don't focus on cutting the virus, even if that damages economy to some degree on the short run. Since otherwise the numbers will be climbing to the point that even masks and gloves aren't really working, even if people used them. Therefore in that case you have to close again, what is economic death since the whole saga is taking too long. As long as the virus is heavily in the mix you just can't really save the economy, that is just how it is. At best you can keep most of it on life support and even that eventually will fail if you don't bring down the number of active cases in time. Since they evidently suppresses the demand for many goods and services, because people don't dare to spend anything. Therefore masks and globes, government support to the people, regulation of behavior with limited and controlled opening of economy is basically only mix that can eventually drag this mess out of the mud. Since vaccines are probably still too far away.



However not only deaths count, many people who survived have many permanent damages, while in US many ended with huge medical bills that will change their lives. Plus there is one hidden factor, if hospitals get full of covid patients others will be placed on hold or they will deliberately skip treatments and tests due to very high risk of catching the thing. What is also creating death tool on it's own. Therefore if business start to fall in mass because the whole pandemic turned into the saga that also diverts people from getting their treatments. This is why it is very important to keep your own people away from the virus as much as possible, since otherwise the whole social, medical and economic chain is deformed. Plus the crime will spike as well. In other words pushing the people into the virus wouldn't solve anything on the long run and will eat away what little was perhaps gained. The virus is simply a parasite in the whole mix and you can't really fix the dynamic before you focus heavily on wiping it out from the population (more recovered than infected). Once that is done the economy will basically fix itself for the most part in time.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Not sure how accurate this site is, but it gives a transmission rate for each county and state in the U.S.: Covid Act Now

 

[ceecee]

I completely agree that for a long while, rural communities and people looked at the pandemic through a view of non-reality, I live in one so I see it myself. Because it wasn't impacting them, because news travels less quickly. Some definitely have a very false sense of safety and security about health, although that's not solely a rural area/people issue either.

The Commune and the Virus - Inhabit: Territories

I also think rural areas should get ready for the gentrification that has impacted urban areas, coming to a town near you.

The right has really laid claim to the rural US for so long. So far, the polarization that’s happened during the pandemic has perfectly mirrored that, where the people who take it seriously are mapped almost one-to-one with urban areas, which are mapped almost one-to-one with liberal elites in the imagination of the right. And the places where people don’t believe in it haven’t been hit as hard. So there’s a lot of confirmation bias happening right now and it’s entrenching people more. I’m curious to see whether that changes when or if rural areas get hit harder.

Indeed. But thus far many on the right have made it clear they don't care so impacts on them or their family won't matter. Not enough to actually think and act logically.

 

[Lark]

I completely agree that for a long while, rural communities and people looked at the pandemic through a view of non-reality, I live in one so I see it myself. Because it wasn't impacting them, because news travels less quickly. Some definitely have a very false sense of safety and security about health, although that's not solely a rural area/people issue either.

The Commune and the Virus - Inhabit: Territories

I also think rural areas should get ready for the gentrification that has impacted urban areas, coming to a town near you.



Indeed. But thus far many on the right have made it clear they don't care so impacts on them or their family won't matter. Not enough to actually think and act logically.

I just think its amazing the extent to which Americans seem to have thought that this whole thing is a hoax, I mean did they seriously think the ENTIRE WORLD was trying to Punk them or something?

 

[ceecee]

I just think its amazing the extent to which Americans seem to have thought that this whole thing is a hoax, I mean did they seriously think the ENTIRE WORLD was trying to Punk them or something?

Well, I know more than a few people that have said this all along - they parrot whatever Trump says word for word. Even when people around them start dying. Fun fact: the sheriff in the county where I live calls himself a "Constitutional sheriff". COVID ripped through an assisted living community (condos/apartments not a nursing home), I think 20 people died. Meat processing plant had over 100 cases. He still walks around with no mask and proclaims he won't enforce a mask mandate because this is a hoax and people have a constitutional right to not be inconvenienced in any way, apparently.

 

[Lark]

Well, I know more than a few people that have said this all along - they parrot whatever Trump says word for word. Even when people around them start dying. Fun fact: the sheriff in the county where I live calls himself a "Constitutional sheriff". COVID ripped through an assisted living community (condos/apartments not a nursing home), I think 20 people died. Meat processing plant had over 100 cases. He still walks around with no mask and proclaims he won't enforce a mask mandate because this is a hoax and people have a constitutional right to not be inconvenienced in any way, apparently.

I find these things absolutely ludicrous as in the past the people who would have taken a strong stance against any kind of government coercion or mandatory action would have insisted upon a voluntary action as a sort of non-governmental best course of action.

You know a sort of we cant wait on the government to tell us the best course of action so we are going to preemptively act and he'd be wearing the mask as an example to others of personal responsibility and handing out masks to everyone encouraging them to do likewise.

Its all mixed up now though, so, so much of it is insanely confused, I read about a guy in the UK insisting its all being caused by 5G masts and that national health services are all death camps involving secret plots for sterilization and extermination. Bizarre. Although I can see how those ideas will serve a certain agenda, one that does want the population to thinned out by deaths, one that does want get rid of public health services as a break upon sickness and death in the wider population.

What is sick about it all is that no one can be straight anymore, no one can honestly set out a stall and say this is what I think and do you think likewise, instead its all a sophisticated game of duping people into acting or supporting policies or actions which are not in their interests.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I just think its amazing the extent to which Americans seem to have thought that this whole thing is a hoax, I mean did they seriously think the ENTIRE WORLD was trying to Punk them or something?

Actually good chunk of them doesn't really care or observes what is going outside of their borders. Even if that is the key factor in everything that is going on in US, since decisions and values are mostly out of touch with huge amount of things that are going on in the world lately. What in the end means those two sphere aren't in sync and that is why there are so many problems all over the country. While the idea that the country is directly vulnerable to anything coming from outside is seen almost as half heresy in most cases (based in what I seen). In the case that the nation really cared about "what is going on in China" this entire pandemic would look much more differently, just based on that.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Heartbreaking especially in light of Trump cutting funding to any school that doesn't open.

U.S. students are at '''higher risk''' from the coronavirus than kids in other countries, Dr. Scott Gottlieb says

Quoted from link above:

President Donald Trump tweeted last week that schools in “Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, along with many other countries” were “open with no problems.”
But young people in the U.S. are at higher risk of getting sicker than young people in those countries, former FDA chief Dr. Scott Gottlieb said.
About 6 million U.S. children under the age of 18 have asthma, according to the CDC, and the agency notes that Black children suffer from asthma at more than double the rate of White children.

Children in the U.S. are more likely than kids in other countries to have underlying conditions that place them at an increased risk of becoming severely sick with Covid-19, complicating the U.S. debate over how and whether to reopen schools this fall, former Food and Drug Administration Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb said Monday.

President Donald Trump has been pressuring U.S. schools to reopen this fall, tweeting last week that schools in “Germany, Denmark, Norway and Sweden, along with many other countries” were “open with no problems.” But Gottlieb said Monday it’s difficult to compare the U.S. to most of those countries because they were able to bring the level of daily infection down to a manageable degree before reopening schools.

The outbreak in the U.S., in contrast, continues to set daily new records as the Trump administration ramps up pressure on local officials to commit to reopening schools. The U.S. is suffering from the worst Covid-19 outbreak in the world with more than 3.3 million confirmed cases so far and at least 135,200 deaths, according to data compiled by Johns Hopkins University.

“The only country that had schools open against a backdrop of a fair degree of spread was Sweden, and that’s what everyone extrapolates from,” he said on “Squawk Box.” “We didn’t study that systematically. We don’t know how many kids were really infected.”

Young people are much less likely than elderly people to become severely sick and die of Covid-19, though some children have died of the disease. Health officials also have warned of severe complications in children that appear to be associated with the virus as well as possible long-term health effects.

It remains unclear exactly how the virus affects children and whether young people, many of whom never develop symptoms or develop only mild symptoms, play a primary role in spreading the virus. Because of limited testing among young people, scientists have struggled to draw firm conclusions about how easily young people might pass the virus on to one another and to older, more vulnerable people.

 

[Mad Hatter]

Politicians like DeSantis also have to consider the deaths that will result from not opening up the economy. Fauci is only looking at deaths from Covid-19 while ignoring the deaths from suicide here in the USA and starvation (300,000 are projected to die of starvation because of the economic shut-down) in 3rd World nations because of the economic shut-down.

Compared to the governors of NY, NJ, MA,CT, IL, MI, MD, RI, DE, and PA, DeSantis has done a terrific job. Florida is still under 200 deaths/million while NJ is at 1757 deaths/million.

A couple of months ago, there was an interview with the leading German virologist councelling the government here. He explained how the envisaged reproduction factor of 0.7 was a carefully calculated compromise between health and economic considerations. It's not that these people want to shut down the economy to kill it or anything like that, it's about getting out of the situation with the least possible damage to the people and the economy. I'm positive that experts in the US have done the very same calculations and based their recommendations on them.
What so many people still don't understand is that the virus won't go away if you just want it really really hard enough.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Enough confusion is thrown into the mix that the lowest common denominator is assumed, and people freely project the lies and ineptitude of what is often heard from people with social power, but not intellectual power/ability, onto people who do have intellectual power because it is all assumed to be a social dynamic.

I do sense a pervasive social reasoning being imposed onto the virus. It sometimes feels like people are using social tactics for power with the virus. Dismissal and bullying are effective in gaining social power, but a virus can't response socially. It even appears that people use this subconscious social negotiation with a feeling that "I already quarantined, I've done x, y, z, and now it's your turn to give a little", but of course the virus isn't going to back down. It may "require" more than is socially reasonable.

To survive this you do have to "submit" to the virus by operating entirely on its terms. The word choice isn't fitting, but it is meant to convey this pervasive social reasoning and the only way it can relate to the virus. Perhaps this is why people fight it - to not feel powerless. This entire situation has made me realize the predominance of human thinking is based on social power dynamics and appearances. Negotiation of "truth" is based on whose construct of reality can dominate by using social power dynamics. Then along comes a virus that operates outside of this.

Right. So they have to resort to attacking the reality, there isn't much left for them to attack.

White House attacks Fauci as states see record new coronavirus cases – live updates | US news | The Guardian

Or distracting. Or outright lies. I assume Trump and the Republicans felt people would simply get use to it and not question at some point. Since that's not working either, they'll try anything. But I think people are at the point where they are sick of this administration and their bullshit and the supporters living in some fantasy world.

Yes, exactly. "Reality is a collective hunch" is one of my favorite quotes (it's probably still in my sig), and it's true *a lot* of the time. This is how narcissists who have a sense of entitlement to writing over the reality of others can actually accomplish it, and can succeed in gaslighting to control shared reality. But it has a ceiling, there are some aspects of reality they can't control, and Trump is just totally out of his depth with reality that he can't control. Because he just doesn't have the capacity to discern the difference (between discerning reality and determining it - he only knows how to determine it and apply force until it gives way, which the virus obviously isn't going to do).

I find it mind-numbing that it's taking his supporters so long to catch on. Ideally it'd be nice if enough people finally caught on that Trump's defeat in November was absolutely record-breaking and only those who lived in a completely sheltered news bubble would believe the propaganda about 'election interference'. But I'll settle for enough to vote him out.