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Coronavirus

Z Buck McFate

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NYT: Trump Administration Strips C.D.C. of Control of Coronavirus Data

The Trump administration has ordered hospitals to bypass the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and send all Covid-19 patient information to a central database in Washington beginning on Wednesday. The move has alarmed health experts who fear the data will be politicized or withheld from the public.

The new instructions were posted recently in a little-noticed document on the Department of Health and Human Services website. From now on, the department — not the C.D.C. — will collect daily reports about the patients that each hospital is treating, the number of available beds and ventilators, and other information vital to tracking the pandemic.

This is full on Ministry of Truth dystopian.
 

Jaguar

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Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt (R) announced on Wednesday he has tested positive for the coronavirus and will self-isolate, Tulsa World reports.

The 47-year-old Stitt is believed to be the first governor in the U.S. to test positive. He attended President Trump's rally in Tulsa last month, which the county's health department director said likely contributed to a surge in cases in the region.

Stitt led one of the most aggressive reopening plans out of any state and rarely wears a mask in public, according to AP.
He has also resisted a statewide mask mandate and said Wednesday after testing positive that he's still "not thinking about a mask mandate at all."

Oklahoma Gov. Kevin Stitt tests positive for coronavirus - Axios



Fucking idiot.
 

Maou

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You =/= they.

No shit.

I don't think its fake, never have. I just have the ability to actually empathize with people I disagree with. People are getting angry at the sheer incompetence of the CDC, and the inaccuracy of the reporting which may or may not be being used for political gain. Look at it from their perspective. All they see is numbers on TV, and see nothing in their lives that even hint at Covid besides signs and masks. They are told they cannot work or do anything, despite no tangible threat in their immediate lives. They don't know anyone with Covid, or anyone who has even gotten it. They research it, and find shakey at best with approximations, that may or may not be as bad as they said. They see shady shit going on, such as "politically aware virus". Then there are a lot of questions left unanswered due to the medias fetish on the presidency and fear mongering. Such as why are they not condeming riots in fear of Covid if it was such big deal? These people look back at their lives, and don't see the sevarity the news is claiming. All they see is lost jobs, livelihoods, riots, and authoritarian measures being used against them. Even if you know better than them, and think they are wrong. You should at least also be empathetic towards their reasoning as a decent human being. Insulting them accomplishes absolutely nothing.
 

Jaguar

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All they see is numbers on TV, and see nothing in their lives that even hint at Covid besides signs and masks. They are told they cannot work or do anything, despite no tangible threat in their immediate lives.

Are you posting drunk again?
 

Vendrah

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I think "the truth frees" is a really great phrase here.

I dont think that the 'forced by the state' quarantine are really a need.
For Brazil, its more complicated than that, but I think that for US and many countries, but specially US that is still suffering a lot from COVID, that people would quarantine themselves and do all the measures if the truth information, and there is such a thing, would be clearly out there instructing people. I think the only move from the government would be to support those who opted to stay at home, and let people do the rest - but that was if truth was solid out there.

Authoritarian measures ends up together, or even correlates with truth. Maybe there is some relation back, I mean freedom brings truth too. Some lack of freedom is the direct the consequences of lies.

And what I learned here is that it seems to be a liar strategy to call those who are telling the truth a liars as well.
 

Virtual ghost

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I think "the truth frees" is a really great phrase here.

I dont think that the 'forced by the state' quarantine are really a need.
For Brazil, its more complicated than that, but I think that for US and many countries, but specially US that is still suffering a lot from COVID, that people would quarantine themselves and do all the measures if the truth information, and there is such a thing, would be clearly out there instructing people. I think the only move from the government would be to support those who opted to stay at home, and let people do the rest - but that was if truth was solid out there.

Authoritarian measures ends up together, or even correlates with truth. Maybe there is some relation back, I mean freedom brings truth too. Some lack of freedom is the direct the consequences of lies.

And what I learned here is that it seems to be a liar strategy to call those who are telling the truth a liars as well.



The problem is that in the equation there is plenty of people that are completely broke. That is the main reason why so many go to work or why they want to go there. In the case that someone wants to provide them with the money to stay home pretty much everyone would do that. However since government in US didn't really do that they created certain resistance movement that acts on impulse, not logic.
 

ceecee

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I think "the truth frees" is a really great phrase here.

I dont think that the 'forced by the state' quarantine are really a need.
For Brazil, its more complicated than that, but I think that for US and many countries, but specially US that is still suffering a lot from COVID, that people would quarantine themselves and do all the measures if the truth information, and there is such a thing, would be clearly out there instructing people. I think the only move from the government would be to support those who opted to stay at home, and let people do the rest - but that was if truth was solid out there.

Authoritarian measures ends up together, or even correlates with truth. Maybe there is some relation back, I mean freedom brings truth too. Some lack of freedom is the direct the consequences of lies.

And what I learned here is that it seems to be a liar strategy to call those who are telling the truth a liars as well.

They will try to convince you that the reason for the lies, is the lack of freedom. Which is also a lie. in the US, conservatives and the right in general know they are unpopular, their policies suck ass and are a huge failures. Lies are all they have.
 

Vendrah

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The problem is that in the equation there is plenty of people that are completely broke. That is the main reason why so many go to work or why they want to go there. In the case that someone wants to provide them with the money to stay home pretty much everyone would do that. However since government in US didn't really do that they created certain resistance movement that acts on impulse, not logic.

That has to do with what I said - the forced quarantine is not needed if the truth is solid out there and if almost everybody had a way to keep themselves at home without starvation - being the government giving the money for those who could not save and/or did fall into high and excessive consumerism probably the only short-term solution for that.

They will try to convince you that the reason for the lies, is the lack of freedom. Which is also a lie. in the US, conservatives and the right in general know they are unpopular, their policies suck ass and are a huge failures. Lies are all they have.

I dont know if for your context that is incorrect, but there are context what I had said apply. For example, if a dicatorship government did come to you to make you tell where your mom (supposing she is alive) is, so they can get her killed just because they want, would you tell the truth? Staying silent is not an option here.
I would deceive them as much as I could. That is why I said that.

Another factor is... Is it wrong to take out the freedom of speech of a liar? For me, it seems right. That decreases freedom and lie has everything to do with it.

CDC is counting both confirmed, and probable (not lab tested) cases/deaths of Covid. Wouldn't that make the numbers pretty stupid high even though a lot were not confirmed to be actually covid? This is on top of of the fact the covid tests were scrambled together, and have a high error margin, due to flagging positive on other corona viruses. Antibody tests for example, are error-prone. How are they even testing for Covid? The amount of variances due to these error margins is emmense. No wonder people think it's bullshit. We might just be flipping out over flu deaths mixed in with Corona. It would explain why there are "Asymptomatics" that were said to be rare spreading it around.

Well, one thing I like stats is that they make our lifes easier - sometimes.
Big question for your country is... How total deaths are?
I cant even answer that for my country tbh, but, in my case, I tell you a story...

At one day a few months ago there was whatsapp videos with people showing empty hospitals claiming that the virus was a hoax. Then, another video telling that doctors were putting people who died from flu as COVID deaths. These are the 'local republicans' (lots of local republicans here are pro-authoritanism).
And at almost the same time there were 'local democrats', I say that like in '' because these people were probably not even 'democrats' by the way, were showing that some COVID patients who got themselves killed were being listed with other respiratory diseases.
How do I know who is telling the truth?
Well, for this case, numerical reasoning and logic.
If the 'local republicans' were telling the truth, then the difference for the respiratory diseases from 2020 and 2019 would be negative - respiratory diseases deaths for this year would be lower than the last year because people with these diseases are supposed to be redirected to Corona as a death cause.
if the 'local democrats' were telling the truth, then the difference for the respiratory diseases from 2020 and 2019 would be positive - respiratory diseases diseases deaths for this year would be higher than the last year because people with Corona are supposed to be redirected to the respiratory diseases.
From different sources, and as some few serious journalists or journalists on serious moments pointed out, the latter was truth. Some different diseases (some respiratory but there were some others too - I dont remember which diseases are anymore) did already had like 3-5x more deaths than last year. And since these diseases did not have any reason outside COVID to give a big raise, I did found out that my 'local republicans' were lying (actually, the more accurate is using 'are' here, since they still do). And I did some job looking at sources like two months ago to try to determinate a ratio for official COVID deaths and real COVID deaths, and I did estimated that the difference is a little bit less than double, with alternative diseases being one way to bring the numbers down.

The take from my story is that you can easily do the same. My best guess is that your result should be the same as mine here.
 

Vendrah

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Bolsonaro tested positive today. Again.

About that, a good part of population think he is lying.
That is because, while 2 months ago he was resisting to deliver a test result of his own, now he just showed up in a day that he had COVID and that he was already getting better - in just one day - with Chloroquine.
There is one thing, however, few international people know. Bolsonaro was called to - I dont know this word so Im going to put some google translations of it - testify/depose about some corrupt scandal involving one of his sons, and the COVID positive medical certificate would make him (I think that already happened, Im not sure, I have been a lot uninformed for a week due to emotional reasons - I just needed a break) be able to evade the testimonial so he would not be forced to lie or to end up contributing to incriminate/accuse and charge his own son. Basically the whole left think that is the reason summed up with the fact that we have plenty of Chloroquine and some enterpreneurs who invested on it have to win and not lose money (and that Bolsonaro family has links with them) but this last part is very speculative, while the testimonial was factual.
 

Jaguar

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About that, a good part of population think he is lying.
That is because, while 2 months ago he was resisting to deliver a test result of his own, now he just showed up in a day that he had COVID and that he was already getting better - in just one day - with Chloroquine.
There is one thing, however, few international people know. Bolsonaro was called to - I dont know this word so Im going to put some google translations of it - testify/depose about some corrupt scandal involving one of his sons, and the COVID positive medical certificate would make him (I think that already happened, Im not sure, I have been a lot uninformed for a week due to emotional reasons - I just needed a break) be able to evade the testimonial so he would not be forced to lie or to end up contributing to incriminate/accuse and charge his own son. Basically the whole left think that is the reason summed up with the fact that we have plenty of Chloroquine and some enterpreneurs who invested on it have to win and not lose money (and that Bolsonaro family has links with them) but this last part is very speculative, while the testimonial was factual.

I get it. He's fucking lying about it, then. ;)
 

Virtual ghost

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That has to do with what I said - the forced quarantine is not needed if the truth is solid out there and if almost everybody had a way to keep themselves at home without starvation - being the government giving the money for those who could not save and/or did fall into high and excessive consumerism probably the only short-term solution for that.



I said what I said exactly because I don't really 100% agree with you. In the countries where social "discipline" isn't too developed you will surely have about 10 to 20 percent of the population that requires more of a nudge and persuasion to play along. However if not everyone is on board you don't have a serious lockdown. Since the point is that everyone is separated from others so that the virus can't spread and that infected recover at home if they aren't a heavy case. While only the most basic stuff work, in the case something goes wrong and that vital supplies get produced. However if not everyone is playing that part of the population will stay pretty vulnerable to the virus and therefore they will carry it through the lockdown. Therefore once you end the lockdown that can't really last more than 2 months you will once again have a good starting point from which the infection will quickly spread, especially since many will feel as they were missing things in life. What means that the lockdown failed in it's main task. In 100% ideal situation you are probably right but the world doesn't really work like that. The government should be as clear as possible and make it as painless as possible, but even with that it will almost surely need to intervene in certain situations. If anything simply because failed lockdowns are ultra costly.
 
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