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Coronavirus

ygolo

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For those of you interested in genetics. Here is another interesting source:

auspice

It shows the genetic tracking of COVID-19 across regions.

Edit: The visualization I like the most is the clock, by region:
auspice

Mainly because the mutation rate is another way of establishing chronology.
Also, the region based coloring is less overwhelming to me than the country based coloring.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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The IRS site says they will be dispersed mid-April and they are attempting to direct deposit everything. They are using information from the 2018 or 2019 tax returns, whichever is the last filed. A finance professor told me that for people without direct deposit they are using some type of debit cards connected with newly created accounts.

Economic impact payments: What you need to know | Internal Revenue Service

This site says the first round go out April 13
How to track your coronavirus stimulus check on April 17: Here's what we know - CNET
 

Lexicon

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This has been reported for discussion by the modstaff. The ongoing COVID-19 situation is a global pandemic that goes well beyond the medical situations usually discussed here. If this forum cannot be part of the solution, we should at least ensure we do not exacerbate the problem.

As with anything else, prompt and thoughtful self-regulation may forestall the need for imposed regulation by the "authorities". Translation: please consider carefully the soundness of what you post, and provide links where possible so readers can follow up. Remember, just because someone has "M.D." after their name doesn't guarantee they are infallible, free from bias, or even know what they are talking about.

More later.



The forum will follow the example of Facebook in removing misinformation and warning members who post it. Continuing to post will result in a tempban.



To follow up on this a bit (and tentatively)

I just spent the last... 3-4 hours cleaning this thread.

Any Off-Topic derails, petty bickering, misinformation, & speculation on cures/treatments that are potentially hazardous have been transferred to Off Topic Posts. Of the 1500+ posts in this thread, 297 have been removed.


As things stand presently: Keep speculative discussion about experimental medical treatments to personal blogs and private conversation. We cannot in good conscience perpetuate the spread of misinformation here, particularly in the case of an extraordinary pandemic like this.

If you have an issue about a post that was removed that you feel was taken down unjustly or in error, open a Private Feedback thread or PM a moderator about it. Do include a link to the post. Do not address it here & derail the topic of this pandemic any further.


If you see any posts that you feel do not belong here - please report it. Don't become part of the problem. This is too important. We are all in this together.

Mods may continue to add on or adjust these statements later, as discussions are ongoing.



Lastly on a personal note: I don't particularly give a damn about your political leanings one way or the other, nor do I care about your conspiracy theories, or uneducated guesses about how to "resolve" this global crisis. More importantly - neither does Covid19.

*mic drop*


:offtobed:
 

anticlimatic

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I think Hillary would have listened to the experts sooner and taken them seriously (and she wouldn't have been downplaying it to the public, saying it would go away "like a miracle" for those first two months), been more focused on making tests happen sooner and more widely, and there likely would still have been a pandemic team in place to make informed choices in those first crucial days/weeks. Compared to that, the difference it would make (for the new breed of Republican to spitefully ignore her leadership) is almost negligible.

I think weighing and judging reality against an imaginary fantasy is less effectual than weighing and judging an imaginary fantasy against reality. Let me elaborate.

If you are buying a car and narrow it down to two choices, a Ford and a Toyota, and you go with the Toyota- and then 2 years later you have to pay to have the head gaskets replaced, you might assume that everything would have been completely fine had you only bought the ford. Tempting, yet bad logic. Similarly, if you're on Tinder talking to two new dudes, and you decided to get serious with one- and then a year later it doesn't work out, it may also be tempting to think that if you had chosen the other guy you would probably be married to him and happy with children right now. For an in-practice example, when someone calls me with a problem- something they have is broken down- often I will construct a best-case-scenario fantasy in which I only need to twist one little thing to fix it, but upon arrival with insufficient materials and tools, 99.9999% of the time the fantasy fails to play out, the situation is much more complicatedly common, and I have to leave to get more parts.

The reality, and I keep saying this, is that this was a black swan event, and governments are slow lumbering forces with all the precision of a falling brick. Having Hillary in the white house wouldn't have changed the speed or effectiveness of the initial too-little-data-to-work-with vs the inertia-of-life-and-society response. I just can't summon a fantasy based on reality in which that would be plausible with a single person swap-out. The baked in failings of governments across the globe to something this sudden and unexpected were far too broad and systemic. If avoiding a mistake involves contradicting the entire inertia of a society's life and expectation there is no other way to learn how to avoid that mistake than the hard way. The only reason south korea seemed to be handing this really well compared to other nations was because they already had their hard lesson with the less communicable and more local SARS epidemic, therefore their lumbering government had plenty of time to construct 'antibodies' if you will (government level protocols) to address the next similar situation. This epidemic will do the same thing for the rest of the world, and we should all be very grateful that the wake up call we needed wasn't far more deadly than this one is.

If you factor in the systemic failings of government in general, the inertia and expectations of global society, and the incredible speed with which this virus has outpaced failed human efforts to control and understand it across the board, Trump's handling of this has been great. He started doing the daily briefings, providing the public with full transparency and much needed knowledge about what was going on. He listened to the right experts and took the right steps. He activated governmental intervention and coordination on unprecedented levels, especially for someone on the right side of the isle. Once government finally caught up to the fact that there was a problem- which I believe is a built in delay, not something that is directly Trump's fault- it responded very well and with ferocity.

If people don't understand that the fantasy in which Trump is responsible for COVID19 is just a projected manifestation of older biases and frustrations with the man, they need to do a bit of soul searching.
 

ceecee

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If people don't understand that the fantasy in which Trump is responsible for COVID19 is just a projected manifestation of older biases and frustrations with the man, they need to do a bit of soul searching.

Trump is not responsible for COVID-19. Big enough for you?

In fact I recall no one here ever saying that Trump created and then unleashed this virus on the planet. Never heard or read anyone say it, in all honesty.

His administrations's response to COVID-19 most certainly on him, good bad or otherwise, as it would be for any president. I'm so tired of you and other right wingers simply assuming everyone left of you, even minimally, has some kind of bias, he's a poor administrator and leader - both of which are requirements as president right now. That's an honest assessment as he himself has no qualifications and his administration is filled with grifters, unethical business people and yes men, with no experience in government treating the country like a smash and grab. All the qualified people quit or were fired for being experienced and qualified under other administrations.

I hate to break it to you but pointing out inept, corrupt and completely unqualified politicians isn't a bias. I don't see you telling anyone how much bias you have towards I dunno, city folks, academics, people in professional careers, experts in any field. You have no issue slapping that TDS label on anything you see fit. You have no issue pointing out that city dwelling, liberal to varying degrees bubble others reside in when you yourself live in a rural, overtly right wing one.

You posted something about coming together the other day. You are saying this is some kind of wake up call. For who? For you? For the Trump administration? For the rest of the country? The conservatives like Ammon Bundy filling church pews tomorrow so they can "own the libs"? Who?
 

anticlimatic

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Trump is not responsible for COVID-19. Big enough for you?

In fact I recall no one here ever saying that Trump created and then unleashed this virus on the planet. Never heard or read anyone say it, in all honesty.

His administrations's response to COVID-19 most certainly on him, good bad or otherwise, as it would be for any president. I'm so tired of you and other right wingers simply assuming everyone left of you, even minimally, has some kind of bias, he's a poor administrator and leader - both of which are requirements as president right now. That's an honest assessment as he himself has no qualifications and his administration is filled with grifters, unethical business people and yes men, with no experience in government treating the country like a smash and grab. All the qualified people quit or were fired for being experienced and qualified under other administrations.

I hate to break it to you but pointing out inept, corrupt and completely unqualified politicians isn't a bias. I don't see you telling anyone how much bias you have towards I dunno, city folks, academics, people in professional careers, experts in any field. You have no issue slapping that TDS label on anything you see fit. You have no issue pointing out that city dwelling, liberal to varying degrees bubble others reside in when you yourself live in a rural, overtly right wing one.

You posted something about coming together the other day. You are saying this is some kind of wake up call. For who? For you? For the Trump administration? For the rest of the country? The conservatives like Ammon Bundy filling church pews tomorrow so they can "own the libs"? Who?

As much as I appreciate your reliable emotionally charged diatribes against evil right-wingers, this situation calls for a bit more logic, reason, and objective perspective than you're capable of summoning at the moment. I don't think anyone else on this forum could be more blinded by their bias than you. No offense.

It is a wake up call to countries, until now untouched by such, to the devastating health and economic repercussions of a fast moving pandemic.
 

ceecee

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As much as I appreciate your reliable emotionally charged diatribes against evil right-wingers, this situation calls for a bit more logic and reason than you're capable of summoning at the moment. I don't think anyone else on this forum could be more blinded by their bias than you. No offense.

It is a wake up call to countries, until now untouched by such, to the devastating health and economic repercussions of a fast moving pandemic.

I understand you are afraid and full of anxiety as are most conservatives when it comes to the virus but projecting biases on others and dismissing without answering legit questions just makes you look like a kook.
 

anticlimatic

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ceecee

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Just in case anyone wanted a current list of countries claiming No Covid Here....

Comoros; Kiribati; Lesotho; Marshall Islands; Micronesia; Nauru; North Korea; Palau; Samoa; Sao Tome and Principe; Solomon Islands; South Sudan; Tajikistan; Tonga; Turkmenistan; Tuvalu; Vanuatu, Yemen

I hope someone gives them that that all important wake up call lol.
 

anticlimatic

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Just in case anyone wanted a current list of countries claiming No Covid Here....

Comoros; Kiribati; Lesotho; Marshall Islands; Micronesia; Nauru; North Korea; Palau; Samoa; Sao Tome and Principe; Solomon Islands; South Sudan; Tajikistan; Tonga; Turkmenistan; Tuvalu; Vanuatu, Yemen

I hope someone gives them that that all important wake up call lol.

Someone will first need to give them telephones.
 

Jonny

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I'm not sure what the point of this post was, but I think you might be the blind person. Or the person who is choosing to keep his eyes closed because he doesn't like what he sees.

See my OP below. @SearchingforPeace too, since he liked your post and needs to be educated.

Right-wing counter(factual)narrative

and

Partly false claim: Trump fired entire pandemic response team in 2018 - Reuters

​CONCLUSIONS
There is disagreement over how to describe the changes at the NSC’s Directorate for Global Health Security and Biodefense in 2018. The departure of some members due to “streamlining” efforts under John Bolton is documented. The “pandemic response team” as a unit was largely disbanded.

Also, for posterity:

I talked with my sister today who is a nurse in SNF (skilled nursing facility). She said they are taking precautions, but it isn't as worrisome as the norovirus that hit them a few months ago (normally called the stomach flu, though that isn't technically correct or something).


Anyway, the norovirus was really deadly and the patients had diarrhea and it spreads via fecal matter so it was really dangerous in a facility like hers.


She is only moderated considered with Covid-19 and believes it is a bit overhyped right now. Her recommendation is wash hands often and don't touch anyone and stay home if feeling sick. Pretty sensible stuff.


As she noted, most people don't get lab work done everytime they get sick, so most people just move on infected, but not worthy of this hype.


Anyway, if the death rate to 5% of infected, that would be something, but it is only .6% in South Korea and they are really testing, so that looks pretty normal and not worth the panic....
 

Hermit of the Forest

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Just in case anyone wanted a current list of countries claiming No Covid Here....

Comoros; Kiribati; Lesotho; Marshall Islands; Micronesia; Nauru; North Korea; Palau; Samoa; Sao Tome and Principe; Solomon Islands; South Sudan; Tajikistan; Tonga; Turkmenistan; Tuvalu; Vanuatu, Yemen

I hope someone gives them that that all important wake up call lol.

Ah North Korea, the ultimate social distancer. I still don’t believe it though.
 

á´…eparted

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Just in case anyone wanted a current list of countries claiming No Covid Here....

Comoros; Kiribati; Lesotho; Marshall Islands; Micronesia; Nauru; North Korea; Palau; Samoa; Sao Tome and Principe; Solomon Islands; South Sudan; Tajikistan; Tonga; Turkmenistan; Tuvalu; Vanuatu, Yemen

I hope someone gives them that that all important wake up call lol.

See a theme: authoratarianism. Imagine that.
 

anticlimatic

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I'm not sure what the point of this post was, but I think you might be the blind person.

The point was that ignoring all the positive steps the president is taking and has taken- some of which I listed- in favor of citing a 2018 reorganization and merger of the NSC (while incorrectly calling it a disbandment) as the most significant incidental action in the fight against COVID19 and primary indicator for how well the president is handling this, is clearly a product of TDS, not rational objective thought.

Redirecting our attention to the present for a moment, what exactly is he doing wrong that he should be doing better on? I'm not an acolyte that defends everything he does, I just think he's doing a good job with this. I understand that people who hate him are unable to acknowledge that he could do a good job with anything, but I've never found that to be a rational perspective.
 

Jonny

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The point was that ignoring all the positive steps the president is taking and has taken- some of which I listed- in favor of citing a 2018 reorganization and merger of the NSC (while incorrectly calling it a disbandment) as the most significant incidental action in the fight against COVID19 and primary indicator for how well the president is handling this, is clearly a product of TDS, not rational objective thought.

Redirecting our attention to the present for a moment, what exactly is he doing wrong that he should be doing better on? I'm not an acolyte that defends everything he does, I just think he's doing a good job with this. I understand that people who hate him are unable to acknowledge that he could do a good job with anything, but I've never found that to be a rational perspective.

That you even use the term TDS is evidence that you may not have a "rational perspective." That term allows you to dismiss the perspectives of others as inherently flawed, rather than open yourself up to the possibility that their perspectives may be justified.

First, I want to provide you with an analogy. Suppose you're in an argument with a friend about which direction to turn to get to a movie theater. You're both late, this is the first night of its release, you've been anticipating this for years, and you need to get there ASAP. Your friend is driving and makes the decision to turn left while you're sure you should have turned right. You soon discover you were correct, and you're going to be late to the movie. Your friend starts to speed to make it to the movie on time. Sure, you may give him credit for speeding (trying to fix things) but you're also going to be pissed he didn't listen to you, that he took the wrong turn, and that you're both worse off because of his ignorance. You're also going to think to yourself that maybe you shouldn't let him drive next time. He keeps making poor choices and having to fix them later.

This analogy is imperfect, because it also misses several other important aspects that are pretty much known quantities regarding Trump's character and his modus operandi for making decisions--namely, in service of himself and his brand, at the expense of others (We can hash out the factual details of this at a later time). But the point remains. It is simply not relevant to the broader criticism to mention what he does right, because so much of what he does wrong overwhelms it. Put another way, when the balance of the scale is predominately on one side, when assessing the state of things you're not going to focus so much on the lesser elements on the other side of the scale.

Now, to your point about "reorganization and merger of the NSC" and others supposedly "incorrectly calling it a disbandment." This is all semantics. Did you know that Chapter 11 Bankruptcy is frequently referred to as "reorganization" bankruptcy, and generally occurs when the debts incurred by a business are so vast that they need to restructure, sometimes consolidate and merge, because they simply cannot operate at previous levels due to a failure of management. Now, in business, the financial condition of that business is a direct indicator of its efficacy and success. In the case of the pandemic response team, which as Reuters points out, "was largely disbanded", the ability to continue financially is directly related to allocation of funding and at the direction of the administration. Furthermore, Trump would have actually done more if he could. He tried to cut funding to the CDC but congress stopped him.

If I came to your house and stabbed your dog, and you cried out "You killed him," I'd be acting just like you are if I responded "He's still breathing, you're incorrectly calling him dead."
 

Z Buck McFate

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I think weighing and judging reality against an imaginary fantasy is less effectual than weighing and judging an imaginary fantasy against reality. Let me elaborate.

If you are buying a car and narrow it down to two choices, a Ford and a Toyota, and you go with the Toyota- and then 2 years later you have to pay to have the head gaskets replaced, you might assume that everything would have been completely fine had you only bought the ford. Tempting, yet bad logic. Similarly, if you're on Tinder talking to two new dudes, and you decided to get serious with one- and then a year later it doesn't work out, it may also be tempting to think that if you had chosen the other guy you would probably be married to him and happy with children right now. For an in-practice example, when someone calls me with a problem- something they have is broken down- often I will construct a best-case-scenario fantasy in which I only need to twist one little thing to fix it, but upon arrival with insufficient materials and tools, 99.9999% of the time the fantasy fails to play out, the situation is much more complicatedly common, and I have to leave to get more parts.

I get what you're saying. I think this is a very common tendency, and it's not unreasonable for someone who doesn't see Trump as a deeply deranged and incompetent megalomaniac to come up with this reasoning to make sense of what's going on in other's minds.

From this side of the fence: if you leave a crack-addicted monkey in a garage with a set of wrenches and a broken engine - and it doesn't fix the engine - it's not a fool's errand to speculate that leaving the broken engine and set of wrenches in the garage with an actual mechanic would have yielded better results.

Trump has consistently directly demonstrated mental unfitness for office. It's directly observable, no middle-man media needed to interpret for us what we're observing. He's a pathological liar who has systematically demonstrated that he believes he is above the law, that he feels an absolute sense of entitlement to dictate reality - reality IS what he dictates it is - (even bold-faced lies should be treated like the truth, and when they aren't the people who try to hold him accountable or disagree with him get fired and smeared by him - and every time he succeeds, his entitlement grows and it emboldens him to be even more bombastically authoritarian). It's completely available to not see this, and to say that anyone who does see it is experiencing "Trump Derangement Syndrome". But that doesn't change that the majority of citizens of this country do see it, it doesn't change how directly observable it continues to be for those who can't really see anything else at this point when they look at that behavior. How many times does something have to sound/look/smell/taste/feel like a duck before a person kinda stops wondering what it is? (I've said this before, I would love if someone could look at it and provide an alternative way to make sense of it - but no one has).

If you actually wholly believe people aren't seeing fairly, then maybe be that hero who can directly look at it and effectively say, "Okay yeah, I realize he looks like a deranged megalomaniac because <insert all the reasons here, really listen well enough to be able to list the reasons as well as any Trump hater could list them>, BUT...." and then share this wisdom that proves he isn't. Really, this country definitely fucking needs it. But the strongest thing anyone from that side has said is: "He only looks like a deranged megalomaniac to you because confirmation bias and blah blah", and that does fuck all to bridge understanding. Just like "The only reason you don't see what a deranged megalomaniac he is is because you're drinking the kool-aid" doesn't effectively bridge the gap either. People who show up in these conversations and engage the other side just to deliver that^ message ("You can't see the good because you're brainwashed by MSM" / "You can't see the bad because Koolaid") are really just shitting in the pool. They're just phrases that people dispatch to self-soothe (I'm with whoever said that, it sounds about right) and they do fuck all to bridge the gap.

In sum: it's clearly available to not see how Trump is a dangerously authoritarian megalomaniac, but that's what people over here see. That's why you're "the grass will always looks greener on the side you didn't choose" theory is falling short.


The reality, and I keep saying this, is that this was a black swan event, and governments are slow lumbering forces with all the precision of a falling brick. Having Hillary in the white house wouldn't have changed the speed or effectiveness of the initial too-little-data-to-work-with vs the inertia-of-life-and-society response. I just can't summon a fantasy based on reality in which that would be plausible with a single person swap-out. The baked in failings of governments across the globe to something this sudden and unexpected were far too broad and systemic. If avoiding a mistake involves contradicting the entire inertia of a society's life and expectation there is no other way to learn how to avoid that mistake than the hard way. The only reason south korea seemed to be handing this really well compared to other nations was because they already had their hard lesson with the less communicable and more local SARS epidemic, therefore their lumbering government had plenty of time to construct 'antibodies' if you will (government level protocols) to address the next similar situation. This epidemic will do the same thing for the rest of the world, and we should all be very grateful that the wake up call we needed wasn't far more deadly than this one is.

Yes, the bolded is absolutely true. And I'm not saying there wouldn't be government failings if Hilary were in charge (or that she'd have wiped it out immediately, etc). But I clearly disagree about the extent to which Trump 'did as much as any competent leader reasonably could.' Because in my mind he's as competent as a crack-addicted monkey - his first approach to all of this was to dictate what he wanted the truth to be (instead of discerning, from experts who know far more than him about how the spread of viruses work, what we were dealing with) because that's all he knows: decide what you want to be the truth, and BULLY, COERCE, THREATEN and PUNISH THOSE WHO REJECT YOUR AUTHORITY TO DICTATE REALITY until people fall in line. It worked with the impeachment, and seems to have worked for him his whole life. But you can't gaslight/coerce viruses, and so his method of 'leadership' in this regard fell short. It is completely available for you to think my opinion is based on something other than the truth. :)

If you factor in the systemic failings of government in general, the inertia and expectations of global society, and the incredible speed with which this virus has outpaced failed human efforts to control and understand it across the board, Trump's handling of this has been great. He started doing the daily briefings, providing the public with full transparency and much needed knowledge about what was going on. He listened to the right experts and took the right steps. He activated governmental intervention and coordination on unprecedented levels, especially for someone on the right side of the isle. Once government finally caught up to the fact that there was a problem- which I believe is a built in delay, not something that is directly Trump's fault- it responded very well and with ferocity.

If you don't watch or read any news / trust any news source, where do you get this? I mean, you're not just presenting it as "this is my understanding, can you prove it's not true?" - you actually seem cocksure of it. Where does that certainty come from?

There's actually lots of evidence that he didn't listen to the experts and didn't take the right steps until the number of confirmed cases and fatalities had progressed to a point where he couldn't continue to assert it would magically disappear. (I personally suspect he really believed he could make it magically disappear by asserting it forcefully enough - because that's how people like him get pretty much anything done).

If people don't understand that the fantasy in which Trump is responsible for COVID19 is just a projected manifestation of older biases and frustrations with the man, they need to do a bit of soul searching.

I don't think there are many people who think Trump is responsible for Covid's existence or the fact that it got into this country. But he did drop the ball in an extraordinary way. And if people don't understand that the fantasy that Trump didn't drop the ball - the fantasy that no other leader could have done a better job - is just a projected manifestation of older biases and frustrations with everyone who doesn't like him, they also need to do a bit of soul searching. :)
 
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