Coronavirus

[SD45T-2]

Ah North Korea, the ultimate social distancer. I still don’t believe it though.

North Korea orders nonessential military personnel to starve from home

 

[Jonny]

[MENTION=7842]Z Buck McFate[/MENTION]

https://www.typologycentral.com/for...events/104250-coronavirus-13.html#post3217511

Great post! I especially like the part regarding:

If you actually wholly believe people aren't seeing fairly, then maybe be that hero who can directly look at it and effectively say, "Okay yeah, I realize he looks like a deranged megalomaniac because <insert all the reasons here, really listen well enough to be able to list the reasons as well as any Trump hater could list them>, BUT...." and then share this wisdom that proves he isn't. Really, this country definitely fucking needs it. But the strongest thing anyone from that side has said is: "He only looks like a deranged megalomaniac to you because confirmation bias and blah blah", and that does fuck all to bridge understanding.

It's like...we all really want to know we're under capable leadership. I don't enjoy that I see Trump as the worst president in modern history, and his continued presidency as a threat to our country. I'd love to be wrong...I really would. But the body of evidence is so overwhelming at this point. The details that his supporters give as counterarguments always seem to fail under scrutiny, too. A recent example, I was listening to my mom (a Trump supporter) rant about how he's treated so unfairly, and how generous he is. "If Trump really only cares about personal enrichment, why is he donated is salary? If Obama is so great, why didn't he donate his salary?" And you'd think I was talking a foreign language when I mentioned how it was money well spent on his 2020 campaign and effectively an advertisement...he'd spent $66 million of his own money running in 2016 so what is a measly $400-500K a year to promote himself as a generous person. She thinks I have TDS and can't see the good in him, and I beg to differ:

Anyways, great post!

 

[Virtual ghost]

Redirecting our attention to the present for a moment, what exactly is he doing wrong that he should be doing better on? I'm not an acolyte that defends everything he does, I just think he's doing a good job with this. I understand that people who hate him are unable to acknowledge that he could do a good job with anything, but I've never found that to be a rational perspective.

Not really.
Towards official data your country has evidently by far the highest number of detected cases and as of recently the biggest number of dead people out of all 200 countries. Therefore calling this "good job" simply doesn't stand as appropriate. Especially since all epidemics start with patient zero on country's soil and therefore all countries are on relatively equal ground in this issue. Since containing of the spread is what really counts and is name of the game.



Therefore here are some of the ideas:

He should have blocked the entrance into the country weeks sooner.
He should have forced all local authorities to close all social events, stadiums, schools, churches and bars for the time being.
He should have forced all TV channels to have "Stay at home" sign in the corner of the screen all the time (from what I understand he didn't do that)
He should have provided more money for common people in the bailout, especially since they through spending would give it to the corporations.
He should have banned traveling between the states so that people in panic don't spread the virus all over the country.
He should have had less arguments with pretty much everyone and give more air time to the doctors.
He should have prepared the whole system better and made certain moves sooner when it was completely obvious what is going on in China. Since this kind of virus will obviously get out of China that is big production/transportation hub.




If 20500 dead Americans without any end in sight is good job then what is my country's success that so far we lost about 1/3 of a city bus that is full of people ? By that logic my government is made out of Gods and Saints, what is obvious nonsense. I mean I really doubt that my government is hiding thousands of deaths. Much bigger details in this country leak all the time.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

It's like...we all really want to know we're under capable leadership. I don't enjoy that I see Trump as the worst president in modern history, and his continued presidency as a threat to our country. I'd love to be wrong...I really would. But the body of evidence is so overwhelming at this point. The details that his supporters give as counterarguments always seem to fail under scrutiny, too.

Yes, to all of this. My personal favorite is when someone sprays me with a bunch of spastic pettifogging or infantile logic, and then insists that the only reason I think their counterargument is failing is because my mind won't allow the possibility that I'm wrong, and I'm simply subconsciously rejecting everything I don't want to hear. (I mean, whose mind won't allow for the possibility of being wrong here?) In a perfect world, I'd have the patience to stay the course and "use my words" to explain how the spastic pettifogging is frustrating and doesn't take the place of effective dialogue and all that, but I don't have that kind of patience. And I begrudging admit that's on me).

The best kind of dialogue though is when I actually learn something I didn't know. It's enthralling. I know that I'm capable of it and crave it, regardless of how someone else tries convincing me otherwise - all because they can't effectively convince me what they believe is right.

A recent example, I was listening to my mom (a Trump supporter) rant about how he's treated so unfairly, and how generous he is. "If Trump really only cares about personal enrichment, why is he donated is salary? If Obama is so great, why didn't he donate his salary?" And you'd think I was talking a foreign language when I mentioned how it was money well spent on his 2020 campaign and effectively an advertisement...he'd spent $66 million of his own money running in 2016 so what is a measly $400-500K a year to promote himself as a generous person. She thinks I have TDS and can't see the good in him, and I beg to differ:

I can't hear the video here at my computer (I'd have to get up to get my headphones, so that's not going to happen), but here's my typical experience when someone says that^ to me: I bring up a comparison of how much more Trump plays golf than Obama did, how Trump's golfing costs taxpayers way, way more than Obama's wages ever did (not to mention the time spent golfing), then BOOM onto next rant. There's no follow through for the counterarguments, just a lot of bouncing off of them with even more FOX/POTUS twitter talking points. That's my biggest frustration attempting dialogue with Trump supporters.

 

[ceecee]

Yes, to all of this. My personal favorite is when someone sprays me with a bunch of spastic pettifogging or infantile logic, and then insists that the only reason I think their counterargument is failing is because my mind won't allow the possibility that I'm wrong, and I'm simply subconsciously rejecting everything I don't want to hear. (I mean, whose mind won't allow for the possibility of being wrong here?) In a perfect world, I'd have the patience to stay the course and "use my words" to explain how the spastic pettifogging is frustrating and doesn't take the place of effective dialogue and all that, but I don't have that kind of patience. And I begrudging admit that's on me).

The best kind of dialogue though is when I actually learn something I didn't know. It's enthralling. I know that I'm capable of it and crave it, regardless of how someone else tries convincing me otherwise - all because they can't effectively convince me what they believe is right.




I can't hear the video here at my computer (I'd have to get up to get my headphones, so that's not going to happen), but here's my typical experience when someone says that^ to me: I bring up a comparison of how much more Trump plays golf than Obama did, how Trump's golfing costs taxpayers way, way more than Obama's wages ever did (not to mention the time spent golfing), then BOOM onto next rant. There's no follow through for the counterarguments, just a lot of bouncing off of them with even more FOX/POTUS twitter talking points. That's my biggest frustration attempting dialogue with Trump supporters.

This exactly is the point I was making. It gets dismissed as irrational (like a Trump supporter, screaming hysterically at a journalist is rational?? I've been to rallies I've seen them do it.). I've never had one address points made against Trump, not one time. It's always insults at the person and their emotional capacity - nothing to discredit their arguments or the points they bring up. There is no place for dialogue because Trump supporters have made it so. They know they voted for this gorilla and are never going to admit it so, they do their best whataboutism/both sideism/terrified of Obama-ism at top volume.

I wonder what makes Trump supporters think he donates his salary. There is only his claim that he does, there is no proof. However, there is all kinds of proof that he benefits hundreds of times more via tax incentives and there is a chunk of the stimulus money going directly to his golf courses/properties. So Trump's salary is a moot point but there is a reason presidents draw a taxpayer funded salary, which is mostly lost on Trump supporters. This presidency is a moneymaking venture for Trump, it was the entire point behind him running to begin with.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

This exactly is the point I was making. It gets dismissed as irrational (like a Trump supporter, screaming hysterically at a journalist is rational?? I've been to rallies I've seen them do it.). I've never had one address points made against Trump, not one time. It's always insults at the person and their emotional capacity - nothing to discredit their arguments or the points they bring up. There is no place for dialogue because Trump supporters have made it so.

It's really frustrating. And I have so little patience for it that I completely stop interacting with someone after this happens a couple times.

 

[anticlimatic]

That you even use the term TDS is evidence that you may not have a "rational perspective." That term allows you to dismiss the perspectives of others as inherently flawed, rather than open yourself up to the possibility that their perspectives may be justified.

Ha! That's ironic. Ceecee used TDS in one of her last posts in which she quoted me, and I was so clueless as to what it meant that I spent more than 2 google searches trying to figure it out. I thought that was the term you guys preferred rather than my more longwinded-

If people don't understand that the fantasy in which Trump is responsible for COVID19 is just a projected manifestation of older biases and frustrations with the man, they need to do a bit of soul searching.

-which could roughly be abbreviated as "TDS" assuming nuance was preserved. If we are not preserving that nuance, and defining it as you just have- as a label for purposes of bigotry- then I agree with you that it is misused and take it back. The only point I was trying to make was that feeling strongly about something always clouds one's judgement of what that thing is, Trump being no exception. No humans are exempt from this trap, myself included- I simply don't feel strongly one way or the other about the president. Other people in my life that I dislike, however, I'm certain that I am judging them incorrectly and unfairly.

This analogy is imperfect, because it also misses several other important aspects that are pretty much known quantities regarding Trump's character and his modus operandi for making decisions--namely, in service of himself and his brand, at the expense of others (We can hash out the factual details of this at a later time). But the point remains. It is simply not relevant to the broader criticism to mention what he does right, because so much of what he does wrong overwhelms it. Put another way, when the balance of the scale is predominately on one side, when assessing the state of things you're not going to focus so much on the lesser elements on the other side of the scale.

In sum: it's clearly available to not see how Trump is a dangerously authoritarian megalomaniac, but that's what people over here see. That's why you're "the grass will always looks greener on the side you didn't choose" theory is falling short.

I'm sorry, but "orange man bad" just doesn't cut it with me as detailed evidence for how you think he mismanaged this situation. I'm still listening though.

If I came to your house and stabbed your dog, and you cried out "You killed him," I'd be acting just like you are if I responded "He's still breathing, you're incorrectly calling him dead."

The driving analogy was better, this seems to infer that Trump was responsible for starting COVID19.

He should have blocked the entrance into the country weeks sooner.
He should have forced all local authorities to close all social events, stadiums, schools, churches and bars for the time being.
He should have forced all TV channels to have "Stay at home" sign in the corner of the screen all the time (from what I understand he didn't do that)
He should have provided more money for common people in the bailout, especially since they through spending would give it to the corporations.
He should have banned traveling between the states so that people in panic don't spread the virus all over the country.
He should have had less arguments with pretty much everyone and give more air time to the doctors.
He should have prepared the whole system better and made certain moves sooner when it was completely obvious what is going on in China. Since this kind of virus will obviously get out of China that is big production/transportation hub.

I ask for things he should be doing differently or better now, in the present, and you come up with a list of six 'should haves?'

 

[Virtual ghost]

I ask for things he should be doing differently or better now, in the present, and you come up with a list of six 'should haves?'

Well, since a good chunk of that isn't done, he can start doing it. :captain obvious:

 

[ceecee]

Ha! That's ironic. Ceecee used TDS in one of her last posts in which she quoted me, and I was so clueless as to what it meant that I spent more than 2 google searches trying to figure it out. I thought that was the term you guys preferred rather than my more longwinded-



-which could roughly be abbreviated as "TDS" assuming nuance was preserved.

Are you sure you had no clue what TDS meant? None at all? Never used the abbreviated term so you had to do not one but two google searches?

First of all, I think you're right here. Second point- Pelosi earned your respect by caving to the lunatic TDS addled wing of her party and launching a legally meaningless and objectively pointless impeachment effort just to hurt Trump for 2020? You think it's going to? You think that was a smart play?

 

[anticlimatic]

Are you sure you had no clue what TDS meant? None at all? Never used the abbreviated term so you had to do not one but two google searches?

I know the phrase, but I suck with acronyms unless they're immediately drawing on my short term memory for something that's been used somewhat currently and repetitively.

Thank you for digging up that comment. I forget how funny I can be when I'm in a mood.

 

[JAVO]

I found this to be an intriguing and informative documentary which makes the case for the virus having originated in the Wuhan lab and released either accidentally or on purpose. I have not had time yet to research the claims, but it seems like a good starting point. Critical thinking and skepticism are especially advised because this video was produced by a religious group persecuted by and opposed to the Chinese Communist Party, rather than a source which would have more motivation to maintain a more neutral bias.

I'm posting this as information to be questioned and analyzed rather than as a "here's proof of the truth" post.

 

[á´…eparted]

Report: Trump Privately Asks Why Government Can’t Just Let COVID ‘Wash Over’ The Country

Nazi.

They want people to die and suffer.

This isn't a surprise. Look at what ICE has been doing with their detention centers concentration camps.


If you still don't get it, understand how Anne Frank died; due to Typhus, intentionally allowed to run through Bergen-Belsen.

https://twitter.com/NeverAgainActn/status/1247966243560345601


If you haven't been a target of the GOP yet, you will be in the future.

Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud: Eugenics and the ‘Aging Population’ in Conservative Pandemic Governance | Discover Society

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm sorry, but "orange man bad" just doesn't cut it with me as detailed evidence for how you think he mismanaged this situation. I'm still listening though.

The lines of mine you quoted were pulled from an explanation for why your "the grass always looks greener on the side you didn't choose" comparison wasn't adequate - and my point was actually "orange man bad" (if you must phrase it in the ignorant caveman vernacular that the right seem to need to use - although using this caveman vernacular does affirm what I was saying and comes across very much as, "I don't even have to try to begin to understand where you're coming from before asserting confidently that it's wrong").

You're saying no one else here on the left has attempted to detail how Trump dropped the pandemic ball? Hard to believe, but okay. I'll see if I can find the time.

 

[Jonny]

Are you sure you had no clue what TDS meant? None at all? Never used the abbreviated term so you had to do not one but two google searches?

This was clear evidence that he's a bad-faith participant in these discussions. My opinion of him has been tainted tremendously from his behavior in this thread, unfortunately. And I mean that "unfortunately" in the most genuine way possible. I'm saddened by the revelation.

 

[Maou]

Report: Trump Privately Asks Why Government Can’t Just Let COVID ‘Wash Over’ The Country

Nazi.

They want people to die and suffer.

This isn't a surprise. Look at what ICE has been doing with their detention centers concentration camps.


If you still don't get it, understand how Anne Frank died; due to Typhus, intentionally allowed to run through Bergen-Belsen.

https://twitter.com/NeverAgainActn/status/1247966243560345601


If you haven't been a target of the GOP yet, you will be in the future.

Saying the Quiet Part Out Loud: Eugenics and the ‘Aging Population’ in Conservative Pandemic Governance | Discover Society

Where is your benefit of the doubt in terms virtuous tolerance?

Ann Frank died in a very different fucking time. Comparing deaths then and now, would be like bemoaning that Sanders died of fucking bronchitis. No one on the mainstream conservative side, is preaching fucking eugenics. Wake the fuck up.

The GOP isnt youre enemy. It is literally no different than the "democratic party" to them. If you do not like the GOP, then perhaps you can agree with our dislike of the "Far Left".

 

[Swivelinglight]

honestly im drunk af but im guessing anything jonny says is more likely to be correct than incorrect

 

[á´…eparted]

Where is your benefit of the doubt in terms virtuous tolerance?

Ann Frank died in a very different fucking time. Comparing deaths then and now, would be like bemoaning that Sanders died of fucking bronchitis. No one on the mainstream conservative side, is preaching fucking eugenics. Wake the fuck up.

The GOP isnt youre enemy. It is literally no different than the "democratic party" to them. If you do not like the GOP, then perhaps you can agree with our dislike of the "Far Left".

I really, truly feel sorry for you and worry for your future.

 

[Swivelinglight]

I really, truly feel sorry for you and worry for your future.

maou isnt a bad person

 

[Jonny]

 

[Swivelinglight]

flatten the curve!!