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Coronavirus

Yuurei

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Relative to bush meat, considering the poverty levels in Africa, people will consume what's cheap and available. Often enough, it's apes like gorillas who as you know, are substantial in size and easy to catch. That said, people aren't told what type of meat they're buying since bush meat is primarily poached herbivores.

But in China, people know what animal flesh they're buying so it's a case of curiosity and/or preference for the exotic. Myself (no, I don't live in China, lol), I'm open to trying all sorts of meats but not from apes, monkeys and many other animals and only through legal and sanitary avenues.

As it stands, China has banned the sale of live animals in markets across Wuhan.

Wuhan virus: China bans food markets selling live animals like wolves - Business Insider



Ah, good point. It hadn’t occurred to me that people cannot tell what animal pre-butchered mear comes from.


From a news article: “ As of 8 p.m. local time (1200 GMT) on Saturday, the death toll in China had risen to 42, authorities reported. Some 1,372 people in China had been infected with the virus - traced to a seafood market in Wuhan that was illegally selling wildlife”

To say that this infuriating does not cut it.

I live in s very multi-cultural area. Here we tend to joke about Chinese and Indian restaurants, grocery stores and Chem-labs being dangerously insanity but of course any and all serious discussion is often shut down as “ Racism and stereotypes” and I would always think “ Okay well, you go ahead and let this shit go until we’re living in an apocalyptic wasteland surround by the corpses if our friends and family and then you can call me racist all yo7 like if it will make you feel better.”

Of course, I should add that it’s less of a ‘race’ thing and more of an unchecked capitalism thing. The U.S. corperations who turn a blind eye because the labor is cheap is just as responsible.
Proper procedure and sanitization are extra money and effort. I wonder if there is correlation between the two largest countries ( in population) and a lack of safety concern? Perhaps their governments have a hard time caring ( or even seeing) their citizens as people. They are expendable as their are another billion waiting to take their place.

Personally, I think the people who allow this to go on deserve to be executed for cutting safety measures whoch endanger the world for profit. This isn’t a fucking joke.
 
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I'm not sure why you're having trouble understanding the article and the hypothesis, but I'll try to lay it out more clearly for you.

For reference, just pulling some definitions from a quick Google search so we don't have to argue about the meaning of words:

Hypothesis - A supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation. A proposition made as a basis for reasoning, without any assumption of its truth.

Conspiracy Theory - A belief that some covert but influential organization is responsible for a circumstance or event.

The hypothesis is that because "ASF has created a massive shortage in the country’s protein supplies" that the Chinese people have been eating more less commonly consumed animals which may have expanded exposure to diseases from these animals. Some of the food problems may be directly or indirectly related to changing from US suppliers to other countries.

Background
"China is the world’s largest consumer of pork", and U.S. suppliers face "pork tariffs as high as 72%". "The country has lost as much as 60-70% of its female pigs, and slashed roughly 25% of its pork production."

Investigating some of your points more closely, I came across Charts of the Day: China’s Growing Meat Consumption - Caixin Global. I thought that was interesting as well. I see the decrease in meat consumption although it doesn't seem super dramatic other than it's decreasing when it probably should have been increasing instead. This decrease may be a bigger deal than one might think from the graph given some of the language from the articles.

Also, of interest about alternative food supplies, from the link "After Beijing hit American soybean producers with a 25% import levy on July as part of the tit-for-tat tariff, China has mostly been turning to Brazil for additional imports. But as Brazil approaches the end of its season and Argentina’s crop has been devastated by drought, analysts are pessimistic that they will be able to boost shipments." From the link, "China accounted for 60% of [the US] total soybean exports in the 2016-17 crop year, according to the U.S. Department of Agriculture." I could pull other articles, but the assumption that there's sufficient free supply of food from other sources to completely offset reductions in US imports is an assumption with no evidence given to back it up. I haven't investigated if swapping suppliers could have resulted in ASF being introduced in the first place. It's not a leap to expect unintended consequences when changes are made to extremely large and presumably complex supply chains.

One more final definition from Google: 'A straw man is a form of argument and an informal fallacy based on giving the impression of refuting an opponent's argument, while actually refuting an argument that was not presented by that opponent. One who engages in this fallacy is said to be "attacking a straw man"'

The graph is irrelevant, you could trot that out for global warming, the incidence of cancer for Omezaprole, or the increase of lead poisoning in children in Flint MI when the water supply was changed.

I'd appreciate responses to be applicable to the topic and thoughts on whether there's any relationship between the tariff war and the Corona virus rather than unrelated generic arguments that offer no worth or evidence into the discussion.
 

á´…eparted

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rav3n

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Ah, good point. It hadn’t occurred to me that people cannot tell what animal pre-butchered mear comes from.


From a news article: “ As of 8 p.m. local time (1200 GMT) on Saturday, the death toll in China had risen to 42, authorities reported. Some 1,372 people in China had been infected with the virus - traced to a seafood market in Wuhan that was illegally selling wildlife”

To say that this infuriating does not cut it.

I live in s very multi-cultural area. Here we tend to joke about Chinese and Indian restaurants, grocery stores and Chem-labs being dangerously insanity but of course any and all serious discussion is often shut down as “ Racism and stereotypes” and I would always think “ Okay well, you go ahead and let this shit go until we’re living in an apocalyptic wasteland surround by the corpses if our friends and family and then you can call me racist all yo7 like if it will make you feel better.”

Of course, I should add that it’s less of a ‘race’ thing and more of an unchecked capitalism thing. The U.S. corperations who turn a blind eye because the labor is cheap is just as responsible.
Proper procedure and sanitization are extra money and effort. I wonder if there is correlation between the two largest countries ( in population) and a lack of safety concern? Perhaps their governments have a hard time caring ( or even seeing) their citizens as people. They are expendable as their are another billion waiting to take their place.

Personally, I think the people who allow this to go on deserve to be executed for cutting safety measures whoch endanger the world for profit. This isn’t a fucking joke.
It's cost but it's also tradition.
 

rav3n

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Some traditions need to change with progress. I can only hope we learn something from this but I don’t have much faith.
No doubt. That said, China has banned live animals in Wuhan markets so that's a progressive step considering how live = fresh/tasty is infused into Chinese culture.
 

Red Herring

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Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC from history and biology classes most worldwide epidemics of the last millenium eventually started out in China. A question of a huge country with lots of people living in close proximity with farm animals and having access to trade routes, etc. Not really that unusual or surprising for something to start there. Also, I am not aware of the US-China trade war leading to any serious supply issues let alone nutrition issues. This isn't North Korea in the nineties, you know. They produce their own food and trade with just about everyone around the world.
 

Virtual ghost

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Some will probably not like me for this but I am just going to say what is on my mind.


Situations like this one are possibly the main reason why I think the government should be heavily involved into curing it's own people and why market just isn't the right tool here. As I said: in the endgame healthcare comes down to national security and that is just how it is. On other hand only the government of people has the potential and resources to truly handle this kind of crisis when they hit. I am perfectly aware that this is warzone mentality talking out of me but I just can't help myself. Life isn't fair or really predictable so everyone should be able to have their health protected as much as possible. What requires strategy, prevention and determination on so big scale that genuine market can't really provide it without becoming government. If someone has this kind of virus are you just going to say to the person that they have no coverage and let them lose into the general population if they are broke !?
 

Yuurei

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Some will probably not like me for this but I am just going to say what is on my mind.


Situations like this one are possibly the main reason why I think the government should be heavily involved into curing it's own people and why market just isn't the right tool here. As I said: in the endgame healthcare comes down to national security and that is just how it is. On other hand only the government of people has the potential and resources to truly handle this kind of crisis when they hit. I am perfectly aware that this is warzone mentality talking out of me but I just can't help myself. Life isn't fair or really predictable so everyone should be able to have their health protected as much as possible. What requires strategy, prevention and determination on so big scale that genuine market can't really provide it without becoming government. If someone has this kind of virus are you just going to say to the person that they have no coverage and let them lose into the general population if they are broke !?

....the problem is that it’s incurable ( so far) not that people are being refused a cure.
 
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Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC from history and biology classes most worldwide epidemics of the last millenium eventually started out in China. A question of a huge country with lots of people living in close proximity with farm animals and having access to trade routes, etc. Not really that unusual or surprising for something to start there. Also, I am not aware of the US-China trade war leading to any serious supply issues let alone nutrition issues. This isn't North Korea in the nineties, you know. They produce their own food and trade with just about everyone around the world.

Well, add it to the list of things you are not aware of.
 

Virtual ghost

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....the problem is that it’s incurable ( so far) not that people are being refused a cure.



You are judging at face value and too much on the specific case. While exactly because it is incurable you need government involvement to have some kind of back up and barriers.
The thing is that this kind of situation can happen with something that is curable or becomes curable and then you will hit the wall if everything is on purely private insurance basis. However it isn't even that simple because in a fully structured countries there are mechanisms that can prevent this altogether. Supposedly this and similar situations came out of bad hygiene at local markets but structure allows you to have medical department that controls that this kinds of toxic markets do not exist and that cleaner conditions must be met. Plus they have direct link to law enforcement that can make sure things are actually enforced, what a business can't really have. My own government blocks almost all food imports from USA exactly because there is no guarantees that this is safe to eat, plus GM food is banned by the law. Big business are trying to find a way around this but the people just don't allow it, since placing money and market here first is a wrong way to do it. Especially if various different social classes will eat different foods, what then can be used as a leverage to end social medicine.


While on the other hand even if this happens you need to have hospitals that are at any time ready to receive these kinds of incurable patients in some quarantined section that is on standby. Regardless of how much money those people have or is the thing even curable, what fundamentally isn't really profitable. Plus you need some kind of office that tracks this kinds of things globally and in local forests, ponds, farms etc. Today world is very interconnected and even within countries this kinds of stuff can spread very fast if you don't pay attention.
 

Doctor Anaximander

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Correct me if I'm wrong but IIRC from history and biology classes most worldwide epidemics of the last millenium eventually started out in China. A question of a huge country with lots of people living in close proximity with farm animals and having access to trade routes, etc. Not really that unusual or surprising for something to start there. Also, I am not aware of the US-China trade war leading to any serious supply issues let alone nutrition issues. This isn't North Korea in the nineties, you know. They produce their own food and trade with just about everyone around the world.

I work in supply chain. The tariffs have affected our business and supply chain
 

Red Herring

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I work in supply chain. The tariffs have affected our business and supply chain

No doubt. What I'm saying is that the Chinese population is not starving because of the trade dispute (as seems to have been suggested by another member here).
 
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No doubt. What I'm saying is that the Chinese population is not starving because of the trade dispute (as seems to have been suggested by another member here).

Huh. This is the first post I see with the word "starving" in it. So, I guess it was you.
 

Red Herring

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Huh. This is the first post I see with the word "starving" in it. So, I guess it was you.

Then we must have been talking at cross purposes. I read your post as claiming the trade war had caused deprivation and changes in diet that were indirectly responsible for the outbreak. Thus my quib about Fox news. Misunderstanding then. Happens when you don't get enough sleep. .
 

Doctor Anaximander

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No doubt. What I'm saying is that the Chinese population is not starving because of the trade dispute (as seems to have been suggested by another member here).

Yes. I was responding to your opinion on the trade war leading to serious supply issues, not starvation. I’m not qualified to speak on the the latter. Apologies for not being more specific.
 

Red Herring

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That's like a lunatic rushing the cockpit of a plane and intentionally crashing it into the ground. MAGA!

His fans want him to "shake things up". I guess a planecrash counts as a shake.
 
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