Coronavirus

[Red Memories]

I have not been able to find a definitive answer to that. Alaskan natives and non Hispanic native American are even higher than black persons as far as cases and hospitalizations. Are race and ethnicity risk markers? The CDC says so but the living conditions for these other groups are also often poor.

Native Americans are some of the worst treated ethnic groups, including in things such as kidnapping and etc., and absolutely no one cares about that. I appreciated some of the more progressive candidates recently actually even bringing them up. It is horrific what this country has done to them.

 

[ceecee]

Native Americans are some of the worst treated ethnic groups, including in things such as kidnapping and etc., and absolutely no one cares about that. I appreciated some of the more progressive candidates recently actually even bringing them up. It is horrific what this country has done to them.

They have elected several at the state and Congressional levels and this need to keep happening. They need the backing and encouragement to run and run on a progressive platform, which they are. It's no accident that a state like South Dakota has the highest level of Covid cases on the planet with a large Native American population. They have a Republican governor effectively ignoring the issue altogether and frankly if it's not white people dying, cool.

 

[Red Memories]

They have elected several at the state and Congressional levels and this need to keep happening. They need the backing and encouragement to run and run on a progressive platform, which they are. It's no accident that a state like South Dakota has the highest level of Covid cases on the planet with a large Native American population. They have a Republican governor effectively ignoring the issue altogether and frankly if it's not white people dying, cool.

Oh the way that governor has handled all of the issues going on with the natives. Angers me greatly.

Idaho actually also has quite a Native American history here and we have some tribes still here. They sometimes have meetings nearby. One of the reasons I did like Paulette Jordan here, she reached to that population. She is actually part native herself related to the tribes here. I was disappointed she still didn't get enough votes. She ran for governor last time and lost to what nightmare we have now and then she ran for senate this time. I voted for her but it didn't work out. bleh. I hope she gets leverage next time since Brad Little is junk.
But so was Butch Otter. and they kept re-electing his sorry ass too.

 

[Vendrah]

This is all irrelevant to me, the virus has and will continue to spread unabated in prisons, just like it has in the US since the beginning and I'm sure it is in other countries. Especially prisoners over 65 - the vaccine should be give to them simply due to age. People in jail awaiting trial because they can't make bail for non-violent offenses shouldn't exist to begin with. Were they sentenced to death? No. Then don't kill them.

This idea of someone feeling they have a right to deem who is deserving of what and when should cease completely. All that means tested bullshit neolibs and Dems especially love has contributed to the pandemic greatly.

The whole - I don't think it's fair to the common citizen - goes out the window because there is no complaint as to front line heath care or nursing home residents getting it first. (...) And perhaps not treating prison populations like animals then wondering why all the violence when they are unleashed back into society - might be something to ponder.

Well, I don't think any of you said really changes my mind. My point is simple: Most criminals are still criminals until they did their redemption. I say 'most' because I know the 'justice' system is not actually fair, even though in a lot of cases it is.

It is not a matter of taking the opportunity of them to redemption and neither is treating them like animals, the matter is that they don't deserve skipping the line to get the vaccine first because they, as a group, are criminals, not doctors and nurses on the front line curing people.

A conservative view is fine but it goes no further than you. It has no place in government policy when dealing with an illness that's killing people daily.

You know I am not conservative, except on few subjects like this.
The reason why some conservative view should be ignored and 'has no place in government policy when dealing with' the pandemic is when they are anti-science - like them going anti-vax, them denying the virus exist, etc... - which they have been doing a lot. A lot of them are not even worth of respect anymore worldwide.

But nothing of what I said is of that nature, it isn't anti-science or denying any reality, and having a policy that privileges prisoners over citizens to make them have vaccine first is not cool and that is not scientific based like the quarantine.

You know, that is my opinion for US - actually, my opinion for my own country is neutral.
Here, police is violent, and perhaps some people on prison are treated like animals, and this is a poor country with one of the highest Gini and social inequality of the world. I was robbed 7 times but I sort of 'understand' some people who did stole me, and thankfully none of them had a firing gun - just knives. I know some of them goes to jail by several and harsh environment factors. But the US is very far from being as poor as, so someone who were originally born in US getting to jail for these kinds of things (and you actually have the violence with guns, since guns are way less restricted than here) is way less understandable. Some prison population is there because they deserve.

 

[Jaguar]

According to more than 40 draft proposals analyzed by the Covid Prison Project and The Marshall Project, in at least six states, incarcerated people will be among the “phase one” recipients of the vaccine, along with medical personnel and essential workers.

That’s a common-sense epidemiological call, say public health experts. Incarcerated people are at high risk from the disease due to cramped facilities, inadequate medical care and a disproportionately high rate of underlying conditions. Prisons and jails have been the epicenters of some of the largest outbreaks during the pandemic. Research has also shown that beyond the obvious risk to the people who live there, prisons, jails, and detention centers could serve to incubate and seed the virus back into the general community, since employees move between the institutions and their homes.

Yes, it is a common-sense call. Alas, some people don't know how to make them.

 

[The Cat]

Native Americans are some of the worst treated ethnic groups, including in things such as kidnapping and etc., and absolutely no one cares about that. I appreciated some of the more progressive candidates recently actually even bringing them up. It is horrific what this country has done to them.

the governement is still trying to finish genociding them. America has a manifest destiny dont you know, and they'll see us all in hell before they admit it's still going on. But its still totally going on.

 

[Virtual ghost]

You know, that is my opinion for US - actually, my opinion for my own country is neutral.
Here, police is violent, and perhaps some people on prison are treated like animals, and this is a poor country with one of the highest Gini and social inequality of the world. I was robbed 7 times but I sort of 'understand' some people who did stole me, and thankfully none of them had a firing gun - just knives. I know some of them goes to jail by several and harsh environment factors. But the US is very far from being as poor as, so someone who were originally born in US getting to jail for these kinds of things (and you actually have the violence with guns, since guns are way less restricted than here) is way less understandable. Some prison population is there because they deserve.

The last time I checked the poorest 30% of US has pretty Brazilian "lifestyle".

I mean this is just misery that breads misery.
Therefore for me the convicts probably shouldn't be literally the highest priority for the vaccine but due to the nature of prison it isn't too smart to just leave them. Especially since guards and support staff will have quite a bit of drama on their hands. Plus a fair share of people in prisons aren't there because they committed violent crimes. So just leaving them boxed and exposed to the virus is too harsh. Especially since almost all of those people will get out with time and therefore you want to keep them sane.

 

[Red Herring]

The thing is, prisoners' punishment is imprisonment. Taking away their freedom. While they are in custody the state is their custodian. As their custodian the state is responsible for their basic needs like food, clothing, medical attention, etc. Otherwise they would suffer in a way that goes beyond taking their freedom of movement. If they get sick they have to be treated and if they run a higher than normal risk of getting sick from Covid-19 because of the living conditions that the state created for them the state - as both their custodian and the creator of those conditions - should have to make sure they too get quick access to a vaccine once it is available. That is not jumping the line, it is recognizing that they too are a vulnerable group. Accepting an elevated risk as part of their punishment would be "cruel and unusual punishment". It would mean additional punishment.

 

[The Cat]

and a lot of fucking people are in prison who shouldnt be...

 

[Virtual ghost]

The thing is, prisoners' punishment is imprisonment. Taking away their freedom. While they are in custody the state is their custodian. As their custodian the state is responsible for their basic needs like food, clothing, medical attention, etc. Otherwise they would suffer in a way that goes beyond taking their freedom of movement. If they get sick they have to be treated and if they run a higher than normal risk of getting sick from Covid-19 because of the living conditions that the state created for them the state - as both their custodian and the creator of those conditions - should have to make sure they too get quick access to a vaccine once it is available. That is not jumping the line, it is recognizing that they too are a vulnerable group. Accepting an elevated risk as part of their punishment would be "cruel and unusual punishment". It would mean additional punishment.

That is kinda culturally biased way of what the prison sentence is. In other words this is a standard that not everyone has reached, even if I really agree with it. Where I live it is normal to let your little kids walk to school (that is usually pretty close). In a way if you don't do it you are crippling the development of your child. Therefore since this totally normal I simply have a problem seeing people in prison fundamentally as a bunch of maniacs. However coming to this state of things requires certain effort that wasn't made everywhere. So it is kinda easy to be judgmental from European perspective. Even if this is probably "how it should be".

 

[Vendrah]

The last time I checked the poorest 30% of US has pretty Brazilian "lifestyle".

I mean this is just misery that breads misery.
Therefore for me the convicts probably shouldn't be literally the highest priority for the vaccine but due to the nature of prison it isn't too smart to just leave them. Especially since guards and support staff will have quite a bit of drama on their hands. Plus a fair share of people in prisons aren't there because they committed violent crimes. So just leaving them boxed and exposed to the virus is too harsh. Especially since almost all of those people will get out with time and therefore you want to keep them sane.

Yeah, I agree that the government should not leave them, what I disagree is put them as top priorities and above common citizens that did not commit any crime. Anyway, this answers is not towards and centers you, looks like people answered me without quoting or tagging me =(.

Its not like the state had randomly decided that they were going to prison, neither they are there for a vacation - they are there for a reason - and it is because of this reason that they should not be priority. It would be unfair for the 'common' citizen to be surpassed by criminals in the line of the vaccine - that means more citizens dying in order to save criminals.
There are flaws, yeah, but I don't think that USA justice system is so f@ck%d up (sorry for the word, couldn't find a more accurate one) to the point where unfairness is the rule and fair arrest are exceptions (I do consider that for my country, though).

 

[Jaguar]

Clearly there are people who don't understand the legal system in the USA. Be ignorant. It's the norm.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah, I agree that the government should not leave them, what I disagree is put them as top priorities and above common citizens that did not commit any crime. Anyway, this answers is not towards and centers you, looks like people answered me without quoting or tagging me =(.


Its not like the state had randomly decided that they were going to prison, neither they are there for a vacation - they are there for a reason - and it is because of this reason that they should not be priority. It would be unfair for the 'common' citizen to be surpassed by criminals in the line of the vaccine - that means more citizens dying in order to save criminals.
There are flaws, yeah, but I don't think that USA justice system is so f@ck%d up (sorry for the word, couldn't find a more accurate one) to the point where unfairness is the rule and fair arrest are exceptions (I do consider that for my country, though).

I am afraid that by decent margin this is exactly how it works. But I suppose it is better that an actual American explains you the details.
To be honest for me US and Brazil are kinda siblings, two large multicultural nations that came out of colonialism. Therefore the basic premises in both are kinda similar if you take a look at wider global picture. So when things go south they probably do so in a similar fashion.


Plus I am biased. My country has only about a few thousand people in prisons, so I don't see this as too big side story that would really slow down the vaccination. Even if I know that not everywhere the story is that simple.

 

[Vendrah]

Clearly there are people who don't understand the legal system in the USA. Be ignorant. It's the norm.

Could you quote or @ me instead of answering directly to me as indirectly? I get that you are calling me 'ignorant'.
I don't live in the US, that is why I don't understand the legal system in the USA.

I am afraid that by decent margin this is exactly how it works. But I suppose it is better that an actual American explains you the details.
To be honest for me US and Brazil are kinda siblings, two large multicultural nations that came out of colonialism. Therefore the basic premises in both are kinda similar if you take a look at wider global picture. So when things go south they probably do so in a similar fashion.


Plus I am biased. My country has only about a few thousand people in prisons, so I don't see this as too big side story that would really slow down the vaccination. Even if I know that not everywhere the story is that simple.

Ok, if it is that how its work (randomly) then you might be right then XD, but I don't think they are imprisoned that 'randomly'.
And I mean, I know from your euro view Brazil and US are similar and also they are similar on how they handle the pandemics but that is because Bolsonaro and Trump are similar and their supporters somewhat similar, but US is ages ahead Brazil for sure. Its justice system should be more decent, and people on the US have more opportunities than people in Brazil with zero doubts.

 

[ceecee]

I am afraid that by decent margin this is exactly how it works. But I suppose it is better that an actual American explains you the details.
To be honest for me US and Brazil are kinda siblings, two large multicultural nations that came out of colonialism. Therefore the basic premises in both are kinda similar if you take a look are wider global picture. So when things go south they probably do so in a similar fashion.


Plus I am biased. My country has only about a few thousand people in prisons, so I don't see this as too big side story that would really slow down the vaccination. Even if I know that not everywhere the story is that simple.

You generally do a good job explaining things.

If you are poor in the US, it is very likely you will have contact with law enforcement, the US courts, jail or prison. Color factors into this greatly as well but it is much more of a socioeconomic foundation.

I have been arrested and booked - I had a suspended license, due to not paying the second part of a driver responsibility fee that came from a ticket for having expired plates. That driver responsibility fee was billed for two consecutive years. I lost my job, due to getting arrested and couldn't pay the fine or the ticket and court costs so I had to do 6 months of community service and then I ended up having to go back to jail for several weekends. I still had to pay all the court costs, the charges for being in jail, the driver responsibility fee and the ticket itself, which was $500.

There is nothing about this scenario that warranted jail time or any kind of fine beyond the original ticket. Which I had already paid. I was arrested because I was driving with a suspended license that came from the second year of an additional fine not being paid. Fortunately this driver responsibility fee no longer exists in Michigan but I'm sure other states have this type of punitive bullshit - which is nothing more than extortion off the backs of the poor.

I'm just one example and there are millions like me and others impacted by archaic three strike laws or ridiculous cannabis and recreational drug charges. Violent criminals deserve to be in jail as do CEOs that kill or injure or sicken people. But they are treated completely different in the US and justice is the exception, not the rule.

 

[Jaguar]

I get that you are calling me 'ignorant'.

Are you?

 

[Vendrah]

Are you?

No

We are not in a 'Corona US' thread, so me understanding the US system is not exactly a requirement. My statement is also more generic, sadly we get in the US thing too often.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ok, if it is that how its work (randomly) then you might be right then XD, but I don't think they are imprisoned that 'randomly'.
And I mean, I know from your euro view Brazil and US are similar and also they are similar on how they handle the pandemics but that is because Bolsonaro and Trump are similar and their supporters somewhat similar, but US is ages ahead Brazil for sure. Its justice system should be more decent, and people on the US have more opportunities than people in Brazil with zero doubts.

But that is kinda the core problem, US isn't really what it used to be. Therefore decent chunks of US are more like Brazil at this point.
In other words when times are bad people are kinda going back to their roots. What in this case are basically colonial stuff and related improvisations that both countries share. What then creates good breeding grounds for street crime and therefore repressive stuff as a answer. Crime evidently isn't ok but I am kinda open minded towards people that never knew anything else. If anything since I am from the area that has long totalitarian past and then the prisons had many of the best people in them (future presidents included).

 

[Jaguar]

This neither requires living in the USA nor on Mars to understand:

beyond the obvious risk to the people who live there, prisons, jails, and detention centers could serve to incubate and seed the virus back into the general community, since employees move between the institutions and their homes.

 

[Virtual ghost]

[MENTION=4050]ceecee[/MENTION]


Thank you for that post, this is exactly the kind of stuff that I had in mind.
If I get everything correctly here you would get a few hundred dollar fine and that would basically be the end of that story. Since there is no need to snowball the story.


So yeah vaccines should be used in prisons and as soon as the key groups are covered.