Coronavirus

[Red Herring]

... Not so much scientists at the helm though as the absense of populist strongmen who ignore their scientists

 

[Vendrah]

I'm probably the wrong person to discuss this with, since I don't buy about 85% of mbti tangents. Especially when it comes to tangents about functions.

When I say "Ni-Ti loop", I'm personally referring to something that is necessarily an INFJ experience (and calling it such is based on past discussion here with other INFJs) - but it's not surprising that others have discussed a Ni-Ti loop as being something different, and I forget that it's not always the same thing INFJs have discussed here in the past. If you're referring to something common to INTPs and INTJs, then we're likely referring to different tendencies. (This came up in the context of seeing some Ni-Ti looping in this thread - and I have seen some of what I consider to be INFJ tunnel vision/blind spot behavior - but I do consider it a side tangent. I responded to add "yeah I see something here too", with the assumption it would soon be jettisoned into the Off Topic ether with the rest.)

If there is no tert., there is no loop, that is my point.
The loops are already a tangent. Specially if we take Jung.

 

[Virtual ghost]

... Not so much scientists at the helm though as the absense of populist strongmen who ignore their scientists

What do you mean with this ? (EU and China have scientifically educated person at the helm from what I have seen)

 

[ceecee]

Do Lockdowns Work? Mounting Evidence Says No | Mises Wire

Michigan Governor Extends Lockdown Orders Until Mid June | Newsmax.com

They are going to have to pry this thing from her cold dead hands (figuratively). Fortunately the power grab is on borrowed time.

Judge rejects state request to shut down Owosso barbershop

You forgot this.

Whitmer: Judge tosses GOP lawmakers’ suit against Michigan governor

 

[Red Herring]

What do you mean with this ? (EU and China have scientifically educated person at the helm from what I have seen)

I mean that the EU hardly has a coordinated or even unified approach in all this. Ursula von der Leyen used to practice as a medical doctor though, that's true, and she even worked in a research center once that also covered epidemiology. I don't see her have any influence on the lockdown strategy though. Angela Merkel has a PhD in physics and certainly understands scientific reasoning. She mostly withdrew from crisis management though and deferred to the experts. She left the political decisions to the regional governors, since we are a federal republic ans the intensity of the problem varied from place to place.

XI Jinping studied chemical engineering and law. Not sure if that helps in this situation but he certainly isn't stupid.

I think that the main distinction between the more and the less fortunate countries (besides an element of luck and wealth) is that the more authoritarian and populist a leader and the more guided by ideology the leadership the higher the death count and the suffering of the population. Trump, Bolsonaro, Putin, even Johnson... all egomanical selfobsessed machos peddling populist bullshit and (to varying degrees) ignoring or even actively fighting scientists and experts even before the pandemic.

 

[anticlimatic]

You forgot this.

Whitmer: Judge tosses GOP lawmakers’ suit against Michigan governor

I agree with that judge. The initial 28 days was legal and more than a reasonable time frame to slow everything down, get our bearings, acquire some data, and marshal supplies. I think republicans who were protesting the initial month of lockdown were not being incredibly logical or compromising (though their fears that it was mostly a power grab in disguise that required heavy resistance did end up being justified). Moving into month 3 it's clear she is just on a power trip at this point- milking it for all its worth until the courts finally catch up with the unconstitutionality of her actions and suddenly allow everything to open like a light switch. After that I predict the same force with which she attempted to hold people in place will rubber band in the opposite direction and actually inspire people to be a lot more reckless than they would have been if she had been more measured and competent in reopening things gradually with the consent of the legislature. We all know what happens to little kids with domineering (often religious) parents like her, once they suddenly move out.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

600 Physicians Say Lockdowns Are A ‘Mass Casualty Incident’

How many cases of COVID-19 are prevented by these practices? “Zero,” Dr. Orient says. But the “ loss of patient morale, loss of oversight of care, especially at night are incalculable.”
​

The whole piece is about how the human cost of lockdown is much higher than any good it's supposed to do. Articles like this are probably why shitheads not only refuse to wear masks, but get so angry about the request that they're coughing on people (employees) who approach them about it.

Just out of curiosity, are there *any* pieces like this in Germany? Or anywhere else outside the U.S.?

A friend just posted this on Fb. I've already put a couple people on snooze (to maintain any respect for them). I want to comment on posts like this, just to interrupt their echo chamber, but I know that doing so with any semblance of vitriol is counterproductive. I can see there are some valid points therein, but also some major blatent lies (they're either lying or just super, super shortsighted doctors).

 

[anticlimatic]

Coronavirus: UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres Says Major Mental Health Crisis Looming From Coronavirus Pandemic

As India's lockdown ends, a mental health crisis is looming | World Economic Forum

 

[Red Herring]

600 Physicians Say Lockdowns Are A ‘Mass Casualty Incident’

How many cases of COVID-19 are prevented by these practices? “Zero,” Dr. Orient says. But the “ loss of patient morale, loss of oversight of care, especially at night are incalculable.”
​

The whole piece is about how the human cost of lockdown is much higher than any good it's supposed to do. Articles like this are probably why shitheads not only refuse to wear masks, but get so angry about the request that they're coughing on people (employees) who approach them about it.

Just out of curiosity, are there *any* pieces like this in Germany? Or anywhere else outside the U.S.?

A friend just posted this on Fb. I've already put a couple people on snooze (to maintain any respect for them). I want to comment on posts like this, just to interrupt their echo chamber, but I know that doing so with any semblance of vitriol is counterproductive. I can see there are some valid points therein, but also some major blatent lies (they're either lying or just super, super shortsighted doctors).

Of course there is disagreement about the measuresin Germany. There are also a few doctors disagreeing with the official assessment and recommendations of the RKI (something like the German CDC). However they are usually no experts in virology or epidemiology, let alone experts in corona virus (while the chief adviser of the government happens to be a specialist in corona and a codiscoverer of MERS and SARS). They are often specialized in other fields and/or retired and out of the loop. There are one or two mavericks like that very, ehm, colorful and highly controvertial Dr. Raoult in France (who started that whole by now mostly disproven hydroxychloroquine thing).

I have heard of workers in public transport being spat at and then dying from Covid-19 in the UK, but not in Germany as far as I know. We do have some people breaking the rules but they are usually finded and that's it. Social distancing and compulsary masks are the law in every state. All parties except the extreme right agree on the basic aspects of the crisis (the threat, the measures, etc). The differences are more about how fast to loosen and whom to help financially and to what extend.
There are people demonstrating, there are people believing all sorts of wild conspiracy theories but thankfully it's a minority and has little effect so far on the fight against the virus.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I mean that the EU hardly has a coordinated or even unified approach in all this. Ursula von der Leyen used to practice as a medical doctor though, that's true, and she even worked in a research center once that also covered epidemiology. I don't see her have any influence on the lockdown strategy though. Angela Merkel has a PhD in physics and certainly understands scientific reasoning. She mostly withdrew from crisis management though and deferred to the experts. She left the political decisions to the regional governors, since we are a federal republic ans the intensity of the problem varied from place to place.

XI Jinping studied chemical engineering and law. Not sure if that helps in this situation but he certainly isn't stupid.


I think that the main distinction between the more and the less fortunate countries (besides an element of luck and wealth) is that the more authoritarian and populist a leader and the more guided by ideology the leadership the higher the death count and the suffering of the population. Trump, Bolsonaro, Putin, even Johnson... all egomanical selfobsessed machos peddling populist bullshit and (to varying degrees) ignoring or even actively fighting scientists and experts even before the pandemic.

Well, for me Merkel is the real ruler here. Although in the case that both aren't trained in scientific/medical field I am fairly sure that around EU things would be worse now. Things aren't stellar but as a person with scientific/technical training I can tell you that it crucial that you understand the scientific method and the value of genuine scientific fact. The same goes for chemical engineering since the laws of physics are absolute and you as the leader must understand that some things are simply facts, while stereotypical politician will play games all this.



This crisis is exactly why I said a number of times that the management and leadership of the future can't really be done by the people who don't have some kind of scientific education. Since as the civilization is becoming more and more technologically advanced or complex you can't really make the key decisions without understanding the system. What is completely impossible without some kind of scientific education. Without that you are at best just a bureaucrat that places stamps of approval on someone's work.

600 Physicians Say Lockdowns Are A ‘Mass Casualty Incident’

How many cases of COVID-19 are prevented by these practices? “Zero,” Dr. Orient says. But the “ loss of patient morale, loss of oversight of care, especially at night are incalculable.”
​

The whole piece is about how the human cost of lockdown is much higher than any good it's supposed to do. Articles like this are probably why shitheads not only refuse to wear masks, but get so angry about the request that they're coughing on people (employees) who approach them about it.

Just out of curiosity, are there *any* pieces like this in Germany? Or anywhere else outside the U.S.?

A friend just posted this on Fb. I've already put a couple people on snooze (to maintain any respect for them). I want to comment on posts like this, just to interrupt their echo chamber, but I know that doing so with any semblance of vitriol is counterproductive. I can see there are some valid points therein, but also some major blatent lies (they're either lying or just super, super shortsighted doctors).

Here the narrative in the on left, right and centrist media are that the lockdown, social distancing, masks etc. was the only way through this. The only thing that is up to the debate are the details: which industries need most financial aid, was it possible to prevent infections in nursing homes X and Y, some local issue regarding ferries and lockdown .... etc. What can be seen in results, we are still waiting for our number 100 dead person since the start of the pandemic (since we are at 99 currently). Plus for the last week we are every day in single digit in confirmed new cases. Also all those drugs that are being talked about in US media space were never mentioned here. The disease has no known cures and therefore people need to be careful, while the government will help them with temporary UBI and welfare system we have. The last time I checked we didn't lose more than 20000 jobs for now and that is nothing even for the country of this size (but I don't pay close attention to this, probably since due to the numbers this isn't hot topic for now). While on the other hand on social networks you can find all kinds of things since there borders don't exist.



However there is indeed a problem here since in my book what US has isn't or wasn't really a lockdown and therefore this indeed isn't that good in saving lives. The point is that everyone stays at home for 2 months and goes out only for grocery shopping and other very important things (while only most essential people are working). Public transport is only for essential workers that have a special pass. On all channels 24/7 is "stay at home" at the corner of the screen. Even leaving your city or town is forbidden if you can't proves emergency. Also you can't even enter a supermarket without a mask and gloves and there is free hand sanitizer there. For me that is lockdown. If you do a real lockdown you can't have daily new cases in 5 digit numbers constantly for months (even with US population size). Number one reason why China probably didn't do exactly everything about this is because they new that US will not be able to process this in a right way. However your right seem to be stupid enough to walk right into this trap. I can even understand that some need to work because otherwise there will be disaster anyway and that is really bad position to be in. However bashing mask, gloves or keeping distance when possible is simply pure ignorance.

 

[Jaguar]

.
Statewide lockdown orders have disrupted the traffickers’ operations, making it more difficult to launder money and move cash across the border.

COVID-19 is costing drug cartels millions of dollars

Tough titty, fellas.

 

[Vendrah]

Just out of curiosity, are there *any* pieces like this in Germany? Or anywhere else outside the U.S.?

In Brazil, inside science not much.
Outside science, plenty. Lies and pieces likes that ruin daily on whatsapp and social media, mostly coming from far right.
People here managed to approve Chroloroquine as if it is a cure...

 

[Red Memories]

what's the consensus feeling on the current issue in a few select states keeping churches from opening despite some of them having social distancing measures? I find it a bit unfair to be honest... if they actually have a plan leave them alone.

 

[Stigmata]

what's the consensus feeling on the current issue in a few select states keeping churches from opening despite some of them having social distancing measures? I find it a bit unfair to be honest... if they actually have a plan leave them alone.

I'm against mass gatherings of all kinds, at this current time. Worship can be done virtually just as well as it can be done in-person, and holding mass gatherings for worship is just irresponsible on behalf of those in charge.

 

[Red Memories]

I'm against mass gatherings of all kinds, at this current time. Worship can be done virtually just as well as it can be done in-person, and holding mass gatherings for worship is just irresponsible on behalf of those in charge.

but there's a difference in a mass gathering and churches doing their part to follow CDC guidelines. how do you feel about ones who made "drive in church" and etc?

 

[Stigmata]

Following CDC guidelines is one thing but must of the religious reopening seem to be basing their reopening on faith in deities protecting them from the virus despite ignoring said guidelines, hence all the latest reports of surges in cases taking place after religious gatherings. I'm fine with a drive-in church in theory but that doesn't seem to be what's taking place.

 

[PumpkinMayCare]

Following CDC guidelines is one thing but must of the religious reopening seem to be basing their reopening on faith in deities protecting them from the virus despite ignoring said guidelines, hence all the latest reports of surges in cases taking place after religious gatherings. I'm fine with a drive-in church in theory but that doesn't seem to be what's taking place.

Unfortunately, that's the impression I've got as well.
In reference:

That just doesn't look good to me.

 

[Lexicon]

Freedumb in action.

https://twitter.com/AnandWrites/status/1263818537132531714?s=19


What an embarassment.

To add further perspective:

Remembering the Nearly 100,000 Lives Lost to Coronavirus in America - The New York Times

 

[anticlimatic]

I'm against mass gatherings of all kinds, at this current time. Worship can be done virtually just as well as it can be done in-person, and holding mass gatherings for worship is just irresponsible on behalf of those in charge.

Probably depends on the denomination how responsible they will be. I know the catholics are all about their routine protocols, in general. In my state they have very strict guidelines for services, a product of their centralized authority hierarchical system. Orders handed down from the bishops- everyone is seated by an usher at appropriate distances, doors and windows are left open and fans put in for ventilation, the priest sanitizes himself between every single Eucharist offering, and at the end of mass everyone must be escorted out by the usher (to avoid glomming together at the door) and no grouping together on the sidewalk afterwards is allowed. For people not interested in the much-longer-service these steps bring, a broadcast is available online for anyone to fulfill their religious obligations from home if they like.

A southern baptist service though? God be with them.

 

[EcK]

To add further perspective:

Remembering the Nearly 100,000 Lives Lost to Coronavirus in America - The New York Times

I don't think some idiots justify the govs of the world (mostly manned by idiots and ethically bankrupt people anyway) taking away everybody's rights though. We essentially have the same rights as prisoners right now - it's nothing we should want to impose on others.
It's easier to punish its citizens than China (ie, the responsible party) - What western govs are doing is to good governance what crappy parents hitting their kid is to parenting.

And as to the media, where are they when half as many people die every year from the Flu? No one gives a shit when there are no ad placements to sell.

and ps: I've been for the criminalisation of intentional exposure to illness for a long time - long before this particular pandemic. That still doesn't mean you get to lock everybody up.