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what's a "real man"

Galaxy Gazer

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Filtered opinion: literally any man, because being a decent person has nothing to do with testosterone.
Unfiltered opinion: a man who exudes confidence and is generally perceived by his social circle as a figure of strength, dominance, honor, and intellectual authority. An example of a "real man" in my opinion is that guy who can tell you about any topic because of his life experience and not what he read on the internet. He has built computers, fixed cars, been engaged, been cheated on, talked a friend out of self-harm, gotten in fights, and probably been arrested. As a result, he is the go-to person for literally everything from bar recommendations to confrontation backup to legal advice.

Is it attainable? I actually know a guy like this, so yes, but I think it's more of a personality trait that a person either has or doesn't have, than a standard that every guy should try to achieve. Speaking in terms of MBTI, I think it's a Te thing.
Obviously, men who aren't like this are still real men. I would just call this select group "alpha males" or something similar. They're what society tells us is desirable.

I think men put so much effort into being one of these "real men" that they forget to be themselves. Of course, a lot of women do the exact same thing (the equivalent probably being the "hot girl" who is the envy of everyone). I don't think it makes it harder for a man to be a man. The key is to surround yourself with people who aren't shallow, but no one wants to do that because non-shallow people are typically "flawed" as well.
 

EcK

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you hear the phrase "a real man" thrown around, by both women and men at times

as in "I want a real man" or "be a man" said in a manner that indicates such

what is "a real man"?

is this an attainable standard?

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?

does it cause problems?

curious, because as a woman, I'm not quite aware as to how this would effect men... I can assume, but we all know what that does :thinking:


1 X and 1 Y makes you a male
As to "man" it's subjective
 

ceecee

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Filtered opinion: literally any man, because being a decent person has nothing to do with testosterone.
Unfiltered opinion: a man who exudes confidence and is generally perceived by his social circle as a figure of strength, dominance, honor, and intellectual authority. An example of a "real man" in my opinion is that guy who can tell you about any topic because of his life experience and not what he read on the internet. He has built computers, fixed cars, been engaged, been cheated on, talked a friend out of self-harm, gotten in fights, and probably been arrested. As a result, he is the go-to person for literally everything from bar recommendations to confrontation backup to legal advice.

Is it attainable? I actually know a guy like this, so yes, but I think it's more of a personality trait that a person either has or doesn't have, than a standard that every guy should try to achieve. Speaking in terms of MBTI, I think it's a Te thing.
Obviously, men who aren't like this are still real men. I would just call this select group "alpha males" or something similar. They're what society tells us is desirable.

I think men put so much effort into being one of these "real men" that they forget to be themselves. Of course, a lot of women do the exact same thing (the equivalent probably being the "hot girl" who is the envy of everyone). I don't think it makes it harder for a man to be a man. The key is to surround yourself with people who aren't shallow, but no one wants to do that because non-shallow people are typically "flawed" as well.

Crazy me for thinking that might be a deal breaker. Either that or I don't have a real man.
 

chubber

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Speaking of functions and how they relate to roles I suppose Te can also make someone abide by gender roles, (Say if someone wants to advance in a career a man may act hyper masculine for instance or a woman may tone down her aggression to not be seen as intimidating by men). Fe also can cause someone to confirm to gender roles.

How would Te then be represented in a female? Would it make her hyper feminine?

Fe would be the equivalent of the man's man and the same goes for women. Fe is all about the environment of human interaction.
 

Lord Lavender

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How would Te then be represented in a female? Would it make her hyper feminine?

Fe would be the equivalent of the man's man and the same goes for women. Fe is all about the environment of human interaction.

A Te female would adapt a gender role based on what will ensure the most success for them to achieve their Te goals. They wouldn't act feminine in any manner as Te is a very stereotypical male function which means women using that function in their top 2 aka. xxTJ types will despite feeling no need to abide by Fe rules of gender roles will be aware through Te evidence that women are expected to act diffrently or face social consquences. This is the theory but on here and IRL I have found male xxTJs to be more F than the female xxTJ types. Likewise Fe males (No not females but XXFJ males :D) tend to act very male like as Fe means they will adapt to those Fe norms of how men should behave.

xxTP women I have found to be the opposite of the typical female image.
 

chubber

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A Te female would adapt a gender role based on what will ensure the most success for them to achieve their Te goals. They wouldn't act feminine in any manner as Te is a very stereotypical male function which means women using that function in their top 2 aka. xxTJ types will despite feeling no need to abide by Fe rules of gender roles will be aware through Te evidence that women are expected to act diffrently or face social consquences. This is the theory but on here and IRL I have found male xxTJs to be more F than the female xxTJ types. Likewise Fe males (No not females but XXFJ males :D) tend to act very male like as Fe means they will adapt to those Fe norms of how men should behave.

xxTP women I have found to be the opposite of the typical female image.

But is Te considered a "real man"?
 

Lord Lavender

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But is Te considered a "real man"?

By most definitions of a real man- logical, strong, business like e.t.c which also fits most Te profiles as well.
 

chubber

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By most definitions of a real man- logical, strong, business like e.t.c which also fits most Te profiles as well.

I don't agree, it doesn't match the context of who is making the statement. Which type do you think makes a statement like that? Here is a reminder of the context.

you hear the phrase "a real man" thrown around, by both women and men at times

as in "I want a real man" or "be a man" said in a manner that indicates such

what is "a real man"?

is this an attainable standard?

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?

does it cause problems?

curious, because as a woman, I'm not quite aware as to how this would effect men... I can assume, but we all know what that does :thinking:
 

Lord Lavender

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I don't agree, it doesn't match the context of who is making the statement. Which type do you think makes a statement like that? Here is a reminder of the context.

At its deepest the concept of a "real man" is a very subjective and abstract idea as you can tell by reading through the thread that no two posters had the same exact answers but a general trend was stock words such as "strength", "courage", "brave", "logical". Its like trying to define what love is or what language is. Sure we can come up with semi-concrete detentions of those examples but unlike say for instance what iron or copper is it cannot be categorized under a objective system as such and asking around no two people will give the same exact answer but I am pretty sure most people would read up Te descriptions and go these traits seem typical of the male archetype so in most peoples minds Te is a "real man" but some of the answers also seem Fe/Fi such as "standing up for what you think is right e.t.c" so while Te is not a male function like nature is not green or the aquatic environment is not blue as such both are common with Te being common in males (Offical type states show that xxTJ is common in males).
 

chubber

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At its deepest the concept of a "real man" is a very subjective and abstract idea as you can tell by reading through the thread that no two posters had the same exact answers but a general trend was stock words such as "strength", "courage", "brave", "logical". Its like trying to define what love is or what language is. Sure we can come up with semi-concrete detentions of those examples but unlike say for instance what iron or copper is it cannot be categorized under a objective system as such and asking around no two people will give the same exact answer but I am pretty sure most people would read up Te descriptions and go these traits seem typical of the male archetype so in most peoples minds Te is a "real man" but some of the answers also seem Fe/Fi such as "standing up for what you think is right e.t.c" so while Te is not a male function like nature is not green or the aquatic environment is not blue as such both are common with Te being common in males (Offical type states show that xxTJ is common in males).

I'm not sure about that, seems like in our conversation there was a reference made to TJ males being F like. So this argument doesn't hold water. My opinion is that this statement is usually made towards TJ men in general.
 

Hawthorne

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it is arbitrary restriction based on a set of self-selected ideals.
it becomes the most useful meaning to the speaker in that circumstance at that time.
its relativity makes it oxymoronic at best and a contradiction at worst.
it is unlikely to ever have a single universal meaning so outside of its use for self-satisfaction or social coercion it is a pointless distinction.

When I hear the phrase used unironically, I tend to think the speaker is taking things (themselves or others) too seriously.
 

Lord Lavender

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I'm not sure about that, seems like in our conversation there was a reference made to TJ males being F like. So this argument doesn't hold water. My opinion is that this statement is usually made towards TJ men in general.

The F in TJs is Fi not Te which is the function we are debating. Te by itself is "objective" "concrete" "logical" according to this article Extraverted Thinking (Te) Explained - One of Your Eight Cognitive Functions which are all buzz words that society deems to be a real man. We will have different views of what a "real man" is and my impression of the "real man" archetype is a strong Te user. In a more moral sense this real man however has a caring side which is his Fi coming out. According to the theory of MBTI female TJs will have a stronger Fi but as I have stated perhaps this is the Te in female xxTJs pushing them to show no typical female traits.

I think all 16 types as males can be a "real man" in their own way but if you look at social guidelines it is clear that men are expected to be T. It on a less abstract level is a term used to tell a emotional male to toughen up and manipulate their behaviour however.
 

chubber

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The F in TJs is Fi not Te which is the function we are debating. Te by itself is "objective" "concrete" "logical" according to this article Extraverted Thinking (Te) Explained - One of Your Eight Cognitive Functions which are all buzz words that society deems to be a real man. We will have different views of what a "real man" is and my impression of the "real man" archetype is a strong Te user. In a more moral sense this real man however has a caring side which is his Fi coming out. According to the theory of MBTI female TJs will have a stronger Fi but as I have stated perhaps this is the Te in female xxTJs pushing them to show no typical female traits.

I think all 16 types as males can be a "real man" in their own way but if you look at social guidelines it is clear that men are expected to be T. It on a less abstract level is a term used to tell a emotional male to toughen up and manipulate their behaviour however.

My point is, that F types care about this statement, T types wouldn't, especially Te types. You don't hear an ExTJ captain of the ship command the "real man" mechanic to have a look at ... xyz. And F types uses it to get a reaction out of others, where as with TJ types it doesn't have the same effect response that the F types expects.
 

Galaxy Gazer

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Crazy me for thinking that might be a deal breaker. Either that or I don't have a real man.

Well, you're a Te-user, so your preferred "type" is probably very different from mine :p everyone has their own idea of a "real man."
 

Magic Poriferan

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you hear the phrase "a real man" thrown around, by both women and men at times

as in "I want a real man" or "be a man" said in a manner that indicates such

what is "a real man"?

It's a variable, because it's a social construct. The only thing that needs to be particularly constant about the concept is the premise of a gender binary; the idea that gender is real and divisible into two forms oriented to the standard categories of physical sex. Outside of that, the sky is wide open. The traits claimed to be the defining traits of a "man" as opposed to a "woman" can be pretty much anything. You will, of course, find certain recurring patterns, but this only because these concepts have a history and cultural lineage. Sort of like how languages are arbitrary, but you will never the less find groups of languages sharing traits (like Romance languages) because they have a shared cultural lineage.

If you want my own idea of a real man, it must be obvious by now that I do not have one. I reject the concept. It's pointless.

is this an attainable standard?

This ends up being a rather bizarre thought exercise. Is a socially constructed ideal, in fact, attainable? Seeing as how it exists only as an observation (or if you want to be real fancy, it has an epistemological existence but not ontological one) one might argue that it's not something anyone can actual possess in an objective way. I suppose the only one could completely attain the status of of a real man, is if everyone who was cognizant of that person perceived them as a real man and that person perceived themselves as a real man. In that case, all of your beholders take you to be a real man, and that is as close as you're going to get to it being a real thing.

Heh. I like the irony of the "real man" being inherently not real.

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?

You mean more difficult for a man how subscribes to the notion that there is such a thing as a real man as opposed to one who doesn't? I'm going to assume that instead of the interpretation that would lead to a battle of the sexes.

Yes. Believing in this makes things harder for men. It's a social obligation and a measure of self-worth that was drawn from the ether and serves no actual purpose. It's an unnecessary social and psychological burden.

does it cause problems?

Oh hell yes.

As I said, it's another burden, another thing to worry about like making a living. Except this one has no practical reason to exist. But people really believe there's some reason for it to exist, so the burden is just as heavy for them as a real thing. It causes problems for men as well as people around men.

It's also a restriction on personal freedom. While the exact details of what a real man is changes, at any given time it is always a limited and arbitrary set of traits, and it's a given that some men will neither desire to have those traits nor be proficient at having them. But belief in the concept of the real man shackles those men. They feel forced (by other people and the voices they've internalized in their heads) to do and be the things they hate doing and being, and distracted from doing others things they might be perfectly good it, denying them happiness as well as squandering their potential usefulness.

Which leads to a third problem, which is that all gender roles are basically maladaptive. The reason is that puts the duty of the individual to act appropriately for their gender over the need to provide a practical service. What if you get into a situation where you don't actually need that many people to do a certain supposedly masculine thing while there is more need for some supposedly feminine thing? The practical thing to do is to just up the number of people doing that, including men. But if you're struck to gender roles, and then the men in your society will neither volunteer nor be requested to do this valuable but supposedly feminine service. Arguably, this could even have the effect of people try to manufacture the need for the tasks that are associated with their gender. This could have especially negative consequences if one of those tasks is, say, violent combat. Men might have to make up wars just to feel like men.

curious, because as a woman, I'm not quite aware as to how this would effect men... I can assume, but we all know what that does :thinking:

Do you think there's an analogy for women? I do.
 

ceecee

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Well, you're a Te-user, so your preferred "type" is probably very different from mine :p everyone has their own idea of a "real man."

I don't think an arrest record falls under "preference" and I'm curious when it became acceptable, no matter the type.
 

Yuurei

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A "real man" -as any real- person-does not concern him/herself whether or not others think he/she is a real man/woman. He/she just do what he/she do because it's what he/she do.
 

Coriolis

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Essentially a real man is a man who exemplifies masculine virtues. Everyone's idea of masculine virtue is different, especially these days with traditional gender roles increasingly being seen as obsolescent. However, there are certain general traits which are ubiquitous along nearly all cultures, such as: courage, dependability, and physical and mental fortitude. This is the portion of the definition of masculinity which I see as biological. Culture creates variations upon that basic formula.
So what then would you call a woman who exemplifies "masculine virtues" - a fake man? a bad woman? Do I understand correctly that you think courage, dependability, etc. require male biology? I have always viewed them as simply human traits, and have known as many women as men who displayed them.

I feel one of the biggest problems men face is a lack of male role models at a young age with the female dominated pre-highschool-system which means values that work better for girls will be put in place and make boys feel left out and in many ways this is similar to being forced to learn in a language you are not good at.
Both boys and girls would benefit from more men in education, especially in the earlier years. Yet another reason to end the near female monopoly on these jobs and encourage more men to apply.

The male role model thing is interesting, because it's not just the school system. I was mainly talking about the media. The medias nowadays tends to portray men in a "objectified" fashion, ie underwear models, or as an object of ridicule by women for beingn excessively "macho". Seriously, when was the last time the you saw a commercial which exemplified men's conventional manliness?
Probably around the last time I saw a commercial that did NOT objectify women, or portray them as a stereotype. Media and popular culture do everyone a disservice.

I also think that women have it just as bad in many ways as well. Women who show interest in science,mechanics or other activities that are stereotypicaly T in the MBTI sense also get a hard time especially if it is at the expense of having children and rasing a family. Again forcing these women in question to be something they are not means a second rate person.
Yes, because the "nature" part of our makeup includes far more than gender, with gender often being the weaker influence.

Te by itself is "objective" "concrete" "logical" according to this article Extraverted Thinking (Te) Explained - One of Your Eight Cognitive Functions which are all buzz words that society deems to be a real man. We will have different views of what a "real man" is and my impression of the "real man" archetype is a strong Te user.
So by your definition, then, I am a "real man". Gee, thanks.

In a more moral sense this real man however has a caring side which is his Fi coming out. According to the theory of MBTI female TJs will have a stronger Fi but as I have stated perhaps this is the Te in female xxTJs pushing them to show no typical female traits.
Where do you see this in "canon" MBTI theory? Moreover, this contradicts what you wrote earlier (post 20), about Te leading women to display typical female traits to be more palatable at work, etc. Which is it?

IME, TJ women at work do not feel the need to sugar-coat themselves to pander to men. This is a good way to lose respect and create misunderstandings, especially when it isn't even real.
 

Yuurei

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So what then would you call a woman who exemplifies "masculine virtues" - a fake man? a bad woman? Do I understand correctly that you think courage, dependability, etc. require male biology? I have always viewed them as simply human traits, and have known as many women as men who displayed them.


Both boys and girls would benefit from more men in education, especially in the earlier years. Yet another reason to end the near female monopoly on these jobs and encourage more men to apply.


Probably around the last time I saw a commercial that did NOT objectify women, or portray them as a stereotype. Media and popular culture do everyone a disservice.


Yes, because the "nature" part of our makeup includes far more than gender, with gender often being the weaker influence.


So by your definition, then, I am a "real man". Gee, thanks.


Where do you see this in "canon" MBTI theory? Moreover, this contradicts what you wrote earlier (post 20), about Te leading women to display typical female traits to be more palatable at work, etc. Which is it?

IME, TJ women at work do not feel the need to sugar-coat themselves to pander to men. This is a good way to lose respect and create misunderstandings, especially when it isn't even real.

By these standards (in the posts you quoted) I'm more of a "real man" than any man I've ever met...but Im clearly a woman.

...akward.

On a more serious note; I can seincerely say that I have never known a T ( of any kind) man. All the men in my life have been extremly emotional, irrational, VERY reactionary, and incredibly prone to making poor choices by thinking with thier feelings. I imagine that I exemplify the stereotype of the thinky-man rubbing his temples and cleaning up after the messes of silly little hens as they scramble about schrieking and flailing in a mass of irrational nonsense. It is quite the headache.

BTW, this does not at all mean that I believe there are NO rational T-dom men. Obviously there are many.
I am however convinced that the "emotional female" stereotype is something created by men in an attmpt to deflect thier own emotionalsm in hopes that we wouldn't notice.
 
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