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what's a "real man"

Coriolis

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On a more serious note; I can seincerely say that I have never known a T ( of any kind) man. All the men in my life have been extremly emotional, irrational, VERY reactionary, and incredibly prone to making poor choices by thinking with thier feelings. I imagine that I exemplify the stereotype of the thinky-man rubbing his temples and cleaning up after the messes of silly little hens as they scramble about schrieking and flailing in a mass of irrational nonsense. It is quite the headache.

BTW, this does not at all mean that I believe there are NO rational T-dom men. Obviously there are many.
I am however convinced that the "emotional female" stereotype is something created by men in an attmpt to deflect thier own emotionalsm in hopes that we wouldn't notice.
Anyone who thinks men are less emotional than women should spend time observing men watching sporting events.

I know quite a few T men of various types. On the whole they are unlike the highlighted description above, as are the T women I know, but will get excited at things, passionate about what they care about, occasionally react when just the right buttons are pushed, and now and then let their feelings lead a decision (sometimes consciously so). In short, they are humans, not so unlike the rest of us.
 

Ursa

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Anyone who thinks men are less emotional than women should spend time observing men watching sporting events.

This is true. I frequently attend soccer games, and the majority of the people in the stadium who are screaming are men. It isn't only the spectators either - I've seen male soccer players shed tears after high-stakes games.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Must be able to answer Fermi questions, grow a full beard, know when to shut up, know when to step up, have a sense of humor, and know how to drive manual transmission automobiles. ESTx personality traits a plus but not absolutely necessary, because sometimes they can talk too much--in that case replace with ISTx man.
 

chubber

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Must be able to answer Fermi questions, grow a full beard, know when to shut up, know when to step up, have a sense of humor, and know how to drive manual transmission automobiles. ESTx personality traits a plus but not absolutely necessary, because sometimes they can talk too much--in that case replace with ISTx man.

Must say stick instead of manual transmission.
 

Lark

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I think this is a good question, though the rest of the thread kind of went how I would expect it to.
 

Abendrot

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So what then would you call a woman who exemplifies "masculine virtues" - a fake man? a bad woman? Do I understand correctly that you think courage, dependability, etc. require male biology? I have always viewed them as simply human traits, and have known as many women as men who displayed.

Neither. This is a question which has intrigued me for a long time, and I still have no answer for it. To clarify, when I say that certain masculine virtues are "biological" (that was a sloppy choice of words on my part), I am talking about the archetype of the ideal man, which is embedded within a shared intrinsic human nature: a "collective unconscious" of sorts. In reality, I see that there are a fair bit of women who exemplify "masculine virtues", just as there are a fair bit of men who exemplify "feminine virtues". The bottom line is that masculine virtues possess a moral aesthetic in women, just as it does in men, and that is the justification for its existence and value. Furthermore, it is possible, I think, to possess these qualities and also be "feminine" at the same time, although the masculine virtues would take on a more subtle flavour compared to the typical masculine expression.
 

Methylene

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The ISTP in me is screaming "a living human being who passed teenage years and has a penis"
 

magpie

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A real man is not a lizard person in disguise.
 

Coriolis

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Neither. This is a question which has intrigued me for a long time, and I still have no answer for it. To clarify, when I say that certain masculine virtues are "biological" (that was a sloppy choice of words on my part), I am talking about the archetype of the ideal man, which is embedded within a shared intrinsic human nature: a "collective unconscious" of sorts. In reality, I see that there are a fair bit of women who exemplify "masculine virtues", just as there are a fair bit of men who exemplify "feminine virtues". The bottom line is that masculine virtues possess a moral aesthetic in women, just as it does in men, and that is the justification for its existence and value. Furthermore, it is possible, I think, to possess these qualities and also be "feminine" at the same time, although the masculine virtues would take on a more subtle flavour compared to the typical masculine expression.
Another thoughtful response. Yes, I can appreciate masculine and feminine as archetypes, as long as their association with real-life humans is very loose. Otherwise they can become normative rather than descriptive, or inspirational.

It is worth pointing out that the word "virtue" itself is derived from the latin word for man, "vir". Perhaps the ancient Romans saw no moral value in women.

What's a real woman while we're at it? ;)
A "real man" with a vagina, and breasts that actually do something.
 

Abendrot

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Another thoughtful response. Yes, I can appreciate masculine and feminine as archetypes, as long as their association with real-life humans is very loose. Otherwise they can become normative rather than descriptive, or inspirational.

It is worth pointing out that the word "virtue" itself is derived from the latin word for man, "vir". Perhaps the ancient Romans saw no moral value in women.

Indeed, the word virtue originally was synonymous with "manliness". Nevertheless, the Romans did have something akin to feminine "virtues" though they were much more modest qualities than masculine virtues, such as: Devotion and loyalty to the husband and the children, upholding the family's honour, and proficiency in domestic duties and child rearing.

I agree that gender archetypes and expectations should ideally be entirely inspirational, as when gender-ideal behaviour is forced, it is neither passionate nor the most efficacious. And yet, I think that such expectations are important for the long term survival of society and should not be carelessly cast aside.
 

entropie

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Siúil a Rúin

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I tend to see the stereotypes of a "real man" as the opposite of the truth of it. John Wayne is the epitome of the falseness of the "real man". He externally defines the stereotypical cultural ideal, but in his cowardice and weakness he beat all three of his wives. Be the opposite of John Wayne and be a real man. True strength is living with integrity, being willing to take what you dish out, and living with honesty and authenticity.

I would say a "real man" is someone who is comfortable with his identity as a man, however he sees and chooses to express that. Same for a "real woman".
This describes the self-identity part of it better than I can think to say it.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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John Wayne was a tool. I've never seen him as an ideal to aspire to. I do not want to be my grandfather.
 

Lord Lavender

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I suppose I can say a real man is a man who feels comfortable in his own skin. As the above posters mentioned John Wayne beating his wives is not a real man but a small boy trapped in an grown mans body. Basically someone who is moral,kind,treats others with respect, has strong convictions but doesn't force them upon others as this is a sign of insecurity in many ways.
 

Poki

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I suppose I can say a real man is a man who feels comfortable in his own skin. As the above posters mentioned John Wayne beating his wives is not a real man but a small boy trapped in an grown mans body. Basically someone who is moral,kind,treats others with respect, has strong convictions but doesn't force them upon others as this is a sign of insecurity in many ways.

Those "real men wear pink" shirts crack me up. Real men whatever the hell color they want. Imagine all the men who wear pink to "prove" they are a real man.
 
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