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what's a "real man"

miss fortune

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you hear the phrase "a real man" thrown around, by both women and men at times

as in "I want a real man" or "be a man" said in a manner that indicates such

what is "a real man"?

is this an attainable standard?

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?

does it cause problems?

curious, because as a woman, I'm not quite aware as to how this would effect men... I can assume, but we all know what that does :thinking:
 

Lord Lavender

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A real man is defined as a man who follows all the masculine standards set by society such as being tough, never crying, big muscles, macho e.t.c. Most men can attain those markers to some extent but only extreme cases can fit the archetype perfectly and these men are hiding parts of themselves deemed unmanly. It can cause problems as many men feel the need to repress parts of themselves in order to fit in to society so they will be unhappy as they will have to hide natural tendencies. Its like forcing a cube to be a pyramid in some ways as to me if you force someone out of their natural form you have a second rate version of the archetype you mold them into. Like a natural cube will make a second rate pyramid if forced to be one.
 

Poki

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Its a man that steps up to the plate when he needs to. "The plate" is life. Whether it be cooking, cleaning or bringing home the bacon.

I think the biggest issue with a man vs a boy image is understanding "need" vs "subjective want".
 

BrainySchmuck

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To me, it's that man who holds onto his (worthy) ideals and their fulfillment without compromises. And it's okay if he cried in the process.
 

erg

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A real man, IMO, is a man who is ballsy and not a patsy. One who is not afraid to say what they think, do what they want, and get what they need.

I strive to be one.
 

Typh0n

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I will do my best to answer it from my pov. I appreciate this question.:)

what is "a real man"?

I guess it's a man who lives up to the standards of masculinity accepted by society. Notice how I worded that, in a way that is neutral; I don't wanna get into whether such standards are created by society or by biology. That is another question.

is this an attainable standard?

I think it's more attainable for some men than for others. Some men have "masculine" qualities where others are more "feminine"...and most seem to be a mix. Again, whether it's society or biology is not the point.

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?

It might. It has for me at times. At the same time, I like feeling masculine, but it can also be used as a way to attack men on their masculinity if they show any kind of emotion or sincerity, which is a bit excessive if you ask me. I try to be masculine, manly, but I'm not a John Wayne type either.

does it cause problems?

It can if it damages the way a man sees his masculinity. I environments that are mostly male-dominated are unbalanced. Same with female dominated environments.

I'd also like to add that I don't know whether gender is a social construct or caused by biology, but I also don't care. I think society, especially contemporary society tends to mock conventionally masculine qualities in men and this is unhealthy as well. Personally, I like being a man and feeling masculine. There is nor eason I should be labeled "macho" for that. I also accept that I have some feminine qualities and that is how it is, I identify with the gender I was born into though and feel no need to emphasize feminie qualities. It's like yin and yang. They oppose each other, but compliment each other, yet in yin there is yang (the white dot) and vice versa (the black dot).

A real man is defined as a man who follows all the masculine standards set by society such as being tough, never crying, big muscles, macho e.t.c. Most men can attain those markers to some extent but only extreme cases can fit the archetype perfectly and these men are hiding parts of themselves deemed unmanly. It can cause problems as many men feel the need to repress parts of themselves in order to fit in to society so they will be unhappy as they will have to hide natural tendencies. Its like forcing a cube to be a pyramid in some ways as to me if you force someone out of their natural form you have a second rate version of the archetype you mold them into. Like a natural cube will make a second rate pyramid if forced to be one.

I agree with this but I also feel the opposite is true; forcing men to be the opposite of "manly" is likely to create a lack of confidence, self-appreciation in these men, and also a lack of male role models in society.
 

Obfuscate

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what is "a real man"?
v1: the culmination of all positive male stereotypes... someone who is responsible, tough, and capable...
v2: a guy willing to do whatever you want when you question his masculinity...
v3: a cheap shot at someone who is different than you are...
v4: a phrase used in attempts to modify behavior...

is this an attainable standard?
v1: sure, there are plenty of people like that in the world...
v2: i mean, he earned the title, right? sure, we will call this "attaining" something
v3 & v4: i think it is more aptly labeled a manipulation tactic...

does this perception make it more difficult to be a man?
v1: only if you are fucking it up...
v2: yeah, performing tricks on command always makes life harder...
v3: i think it does for some... it hasn't made life hard for me...
v4: i think from this perspective it is clear that it is all bullshit

does it cause problems?

sure... it can cause problems... does it cause me problems? no, it's all bullshit and i have better things to spend my time on than wondering if the world thinks i am a real man... i am thirty one years old with a y chromosome; last i checked, that is the "real" definition...
 

anticlimatic

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Being a real man subjectively involves having gender based standards and striving to live up to them. It's similar to "being a good person" in approach.

It's hard to come up with a universal standard, but a rough impression can be aggregated I think. Being a "real" anything (man, woman, religious patron) is usually rooted in strength.
 

Coriolis

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I would say a "real man" is someone who is comfortable with his identity as a man, however he sees and chooses to express that. Same for a "real woman".
 

Cellmold

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Tends to be about only appearing emotionally vulnerable when it is socially acceptable to do so & in a socially acceptable level of degrees (ie: on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 being whiny bitch-man poet and 10 being Conan). The rest of the time it's about managing and overcoming obstacles.

In other words: It's a relative-based notion combining aspects of evolution & biology within our very specific offshoot of chimp-style mammal & what is culturally reasoned by the collective imagery of a majority consciousness (and yes involving the historical acts of manliness as a precedent for an abstract of man; he who lives in timeless example, is a cultural reasoning attempting to pin down it's implicit understanding of manliness).

We're a mythologising species, we like a narrative to follow and the narrative of power is the simplest and strongest. If, historically, one has attained great power through some means (hopefully by direct and forceful methods for the full mythology) then an elevation begins both in present and eventually in future recall of the past. Someone cannot just 'come about power' as if stumbling along a variable riverbed only to see gold upon tripping into it, we cannot handle base nature because we feel it undermines our mythology of power, so instead there are 'reasons'.

These explanations are not untrue for a given value, while also not being objectively satisfied. But if it works it works, just don't believe it right?

In any case, it parses down to: A man is one who overcomes directly. Contrast with woman who is defined (on the average) as physically weaker than man, she too is mythologised by one who overcomes, but overcomes indirectly. Because she cannot overcome directly except where 'directly' implies nuanced social influence, politics or the physical bettering of an under-average man.

But lets pause. Take a breather.

A vast simplification just happened. We're not so simple that we can simply understand ourselves in this way. Subtlties matter, the pebble that starts the landslide matters.

It's also that everything we can't state directly (or to be precise: explicitly) that matters. Just because something works it doesn't mean it's ultimately useful or helpful.

People are people; fucking and killing and squabbling. But also builidng, perceiving beauty, comprehending, discovering and (yes) overcoming. Lets dispense with the word games and the identity parade, lets also dispense with the controlling method and the intimidation fueled by slippery slope fallacies.

A real man would be one who understands this and holds the implict and explicit in a vague balance of understanding, who doesn't play identity politics to escape that which is too hard and who also doesn't over-mythologise the past in order to claim ownership of an abstraction that never really was.

A real man overcomes....
 

kyuuei

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For most people? What I actually hear is "I want someone that fulfills this arbitrary want/need right now!" or "I want someone that does this!"

Very little of it usually pertains to being a man.

I have a friend that was in the military, got his bits blown up in a fight, and now has breasts bigger than mine and cross dresses sometimes because he's done with the macho-man thing + has low testosterone and cannot deliver a physical man trait to straight women anyways. Some would not consider him a 'real man' for the way he acts/does things now. Some would because of the WAY he got to that point. Some would again for simple military service. Some would not because he simply lacks a physical trait he once had.

It's really quite subjective/shitty for most men. Don't cry, be a man. Cry, be a man. Step up to the plate and deal with it. Get help and don't hide it. We just pick shit and shove it on men. Men and women alike.

To me.. "Man" is the male-pronoun version of "adult" .. Such the same as "woman" for women is adult females. When I hear Be a Man and when I say it.. what I mean is Be an Adult.

And although that is subjective, it doesn't carry the same weight of shit stereotypes that be a man does. I'm not telling any man to suck up something I wouldn't expect a full grown woman, and in particular myself, to suck up.. I'm not going to put expectations on them that I wouldn't lead with by example myself first.

Whatever I mean in the situation, it is referring to the ability to hold one's self to an adult's standards vs being childish. Not much of anything to do with gender.

In my relationship, if I ever wanted my boyfriend to 'man up'.. it would literally be to tell him to do something adult-like: take responsibility for his actions or words, or pay a bill on time, or recognize when I need something from him right then. These are things he can easily expect from me in return.
 

Abendrot

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What is a real man?

Essentially a real man is a man who exemplifies masculine virtues. Everyone's idea of masculine virtue is different, especially these days with traditional gender roles increasingly being seen as obsolescent. However, there are certain general traits which are ubiquitous along nearly all cultures, such as: courage, dependability, and physical and mental fortitude. This is the portion of the definition of masculinity which I see as biological. Culture creates variations upon that basic formula.

My personal definition of masculinity is generally a mix of the virtues identified by Aristotle, the Stoics, and Nietzsche.
These three philosophies generally illustrate an ideal man who is magnanimous and generous, just and wise, overcoming, capable and accomplished, independent, proud, courageous, mentally and physically strong, stoic etc.

This provides a contrast to the traditional Christian virtues, which are more unisex and promotes virtues such as humbleness, humility, forgiveness, meekness, selflessness, kindness, etc. Furthermore, Christianity does not so much promote virtue as it condemns negative characteristics (sin).
This is why I think Christianity does not really identify an ideal masculine for men to strive for, and causes some confusion. Hence there are cultural notions such as chivalry and whatnot.

I believe that my personal definition of masculinity is something which is attainable by all men to a degree, though some men have more potential than others. I personally have no problems with this ideal. There will be some men who struggle to live up to these expectations, but so long as they appreciate the ideal, they will ultimately find it to be rewarding. Other men will possess a temperament which cannot appreciate this ideal; these men will have to find another ideal to live up to.
 

thepink-cloakedninja

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A man is as swift as the coursing river, has all the force of the great typhoon, possesses all the strength of a raging fire and is mysterious as the dark side of the moon.
 

Lord Lavender

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I agree with this but I also feel the opposite is true; forcing men to be the opposite of "manly" is likely to create a lack of confidence, self-appreciation in these men, and also a lack of male role models in society.

My overall philosphy on gender roles is as I said to not forcibly mold a person into being what they are not. When people are forced to be something they are not sure you might get them to fit a certain type but a second rate of that type. The only time we should force people to be something they are not is for negative stuff as again a second rate good person is better than a first rate bad person. I feel one of the biggest problems men face is a lack of male role models at a young age with the female dominated pre-highschool-system which means values that work better for girls will be put in place and make boys feel left out and in many ways this is similar to being forced to learn in a language you are not good at.
 

Typh0n

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My overall philosphy on gender roles is as I said to not forcibly mold a person into being what they are not. When people are forced to be something they are not sure you might get them to fit a certain type but a second rate of that type. The only time we should force people to be something they are not is for negative stuff as again a second rate good person is better than a first rate bad person. I feel one of the biggest problems men face is a lack of male role models at a young age with the female dominated pre-highschool-system which means values that work better for girls will be put in place and make boys feel left out and in many ways this is similar to being forced to learn in a language you are not good at.

The bolded reveals that you feel gender roles are a social construct, whether you realize it or not. I was careful to word my response in a way that doesn't betray bias for either side of the debate as to whether they are a social contsruct (nurture) or biological (nature), or some mix of both. However, I find that as long as they are not beyond the person's capacity to respond to their demands, gender roles can be healthy. I see no need to impose gender roles though. To each their own. I'm simply saying they can be healthy - at least have been for me. I can't judge for anyone else.

The male role model thing is interesting, because it's not just the school system. I was mainly talking about the media. The medias nowadays tends to portray men in a "objectified" fashion, ie underwear models, or as an object of ridicule by women for beingn excessively "macho". Seriously, when was the last time the you saw a commercial which exemplified men's conventional manliness?

I personally like myself more as a man and feel better in my shoes seeing that there are differences between myself and women, that's not to say we are a different species, or belong on different planets, it's just that I always thought, like you seem to think, that gender roles were unhealthy and led to misandry, while now I feel it is the exact opposite.
 

Lord Lavender

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The bolded reveals that you feel gender roles are a social construct, whether you realize it or not. I was careful to word my response in a way that doesn't betray bias for either side of the debate as to whether they are a social contsruct (nurture) or biological (nature), or some mix of both. However, I find that as long as they are not beyond the person's capacity to respond to their demands, gender roles can be healthy. I see no need to impose gender roles though. To each their own. I'm simply saying they can be healthy - at least have been for me. I can't judge for anyone else.

The male role model thing is interesting, because it's not just the school system. I was mainly talking about the media. The medias nowadays tends to portray men in a "objectified" fashion, ie underwear models, or as an object of ridicule by women for beingn excessively "macho". Seriously, when was the last time the you saw a commercial which exemplified men's conventional manliness?

I personally like myself more as a man and feel better in my shoes seeing that there are differences between myself and women, that's not to say we are a different species, or belong on different planets, it's just that I always thought, like you seem to think, that gender roles were unhealthy and led to misandry, while now I feel it is the exact opposite.

I agree that there is far more than education but I would say the lack of male role models in the education system is one of the bigger problems as this sets the foundation for you as a persona s you are still growing so to speak and young minds are easier to influence. It does spill over into other areas of society such as the lack of male role models with single mothers meaning that boys raised in a single mother household or without a stable male presence may not know how to be a father which again the cycle continues. Again I feel comfortable being a man like yourself and feel no need to embrace female traits as defined by society (I have some of my own such as loving to help).
 

Abendrot

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My overall philosphy on gender roles is as I said to not forcibly mold a person into being what they are not. When people are forced to be something they are not sure you might get them to fit a certain type but a second rate of that type. The only time we should force people to be something they are not is for negative stuff as again a second rate good person is better than a first rate bad person. I feel one of the biggest problems men face is a lack of male role models at a young age with the female dominated pre-highschool-system which means values that work better for girls will be put in place and make boys feel left out and in many ways this is similar to being forced to learn in a language you are not good at.

This also applies when it comes to promoting traditional masculinity. There are certain men who cannot appreciate the traditional masculine ideal. For these men, there is no point trying to force them to conform to it. It will neither produce effective results, nor will it make them happy.
 

Lord Lavender

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This also applies when it comes to promoting traditional masculinity. There are certain men who cannot appreciate the traditional masculine ideal. For these men, there is no point trying to force them to conform to it. It will neither produce effective results, nor will it make them happy.

I also think that women have it just as bad in many ways as well. Women who show interest in science,mechanics or other activities that are stereotypicaly T in the MBTI sense also get a hard time especially if it is at the expense of having children and rasing a family. Again forcing these women in question to be something they are not means a second rate person.
 

chubber

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Fe is what makes a "real man" or a "real woman" depending on the role theu want to fit into.
 

Lord Lavender

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Fe is what makes a "real man" or a "real woman" depending on the role theu want to fit into.

Speaking of functions and how they relate to roles I suppose Te can also make someone abide by gender roles, (Say if someone wants to advance in a career a man may act hyper masculine for instance or a woman may tone down her aggression to not be seen as intimidating by men). Fe also can cause someone to confirm to gender roles.
 
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