[INFJ] Are INFJs jealous of INFPs?

[prplchknz]

the way the internet treats INFJs I'd think the opposite,

 

[Virgo1987]

No, they "shouldn't" be, but it IS a trend, and I am interested in "why". It may not be jealousy, maybe just simple disdain, but it is there. And the disclaimer has already been given that not all INFJs display this attitude at all. The idea that INFPs are pretty much defective INFJs exists in MBTI communities in general.

So the question becomes: how and why are INFPs specifically rubbing against INFJ insecurities?

Of course I have my speculations, but I am more curious about what others have to say, given denial of the existence of this can be gotten past.

I wasn't aware of this happening in MBTI communities, so thanks for mentioning it.

Aren't INFP's and INFJ's like right next to each other when it comes to the type of personalities? At least that's what I've heard. I've also heard from other INFJs that they need INFP's in their lives because we are able to see the darkness, but we handle it better. That being said, I don't mean any harm within saying that.

Maybe I should have used that question instead of using the word jealousy.

 

[Jeremy8419]

are you two the same person trolling the forum?

I have a habit of mirroring people, sorry. LOL.

 

[Virgo1987]

are you two the same person trolling the forum?

Sadly no. I could never be the perfection that is Jeremy8419.

 

[Virgo1987]

Several possibilities why insecurities take that form:

- infjs are very good at observing and analyzing but when it is something first hand, and the more their emotions are stirred up, the more myopic they are about their own behaviour. I think that's when there's the biggest tendency to lash out, particularly when someone stirs the water and keep the infj experiencing their emotions firsthand. They need distance for objectivity.

- insecurity brings out the worst in anyone. In infjs, they usually are overly self indulgent under stress, have a tendency to blame others and are more sensitive than usual.

- infjs often are not aware how big their own emotional bucket is till it spills over, which is embarrassing and surprising even to them. Little irritations get expressed that they thought they could accommodate before and which they didn't bother to express along the way.

- infps and infjs have different functions which can hit each other's insecurities without even knowing they are doing something hurtful because the same behaviour wouldn't be hurtful to them. However because infjs need more external feedback to process, they often get frustrated when there is too much emotional noise and will insist that the other person back off. Infps are more self contained in their processing and so don't push people away in the same manner.

- infjs often fill in blanks incorrectly about others' reasoning or motives in the absence of information or when emotionally stressed. They also are extremely result oriented so are more easily bothered when an interaction turns out in a way they dislike.

These of course are generalizations, but they happen enough to be trends. I think the behaviour is more a temporary reaction than a thought out final cutoff. However depending on communication skills and stress and maturity, infjs are bad at knowing and communicating their needs before they are very very frustrated and they can be quite hurtful as a result.

- infjs often fill in blanks incorrectly about others' reasoning or motives in the absence of information or when emotionally stressed. They also are extremely result oriented so are more easily bothered when an interaction turns out in a way they dislike.


Does this still apply if a person sincerely apologizes and insists they want to fix the situation? I ask because I would think that apologizing and showing more than one (or ten) ways of understanding an infj's point of view would be enough for them to turn their dislike of a situation into a situation that was likable. I understand that anger could crowd their judgement at first, but is it something else entirely that makes them hate conflict within that moment with someone who wants to argue their side of thing, suddenly stops arguing their point and speaks to them in a even tone and one that is curious as to finding a resolution.

Or do they see a sudden change in the other person's tone as the other person just saying what they want to hear in order to forget the situation -- meaning that the other person doesn't take their feelings seriously therefore in the future it will continue to happen again if that is the case, does that ever go away? Does that feeling that the other person's motives are negative ever turn positive?

 

[Fidelia]

I don't think being a certain type excuses bad behaviour. I just think bad behaviour comes out in more likely ways depending on ones respective type. I honestly don't know. I don't have piles of real life experience with other infjs and most of the ones I know are pretty reasonable. So, I can really say why someone would act a particular way. All I can say is that it seems unreasonable but I think it's not really about you and it will improve with time.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Me showing up is like cousin Eddie's arrival. But it just wouldn't be the same without me, now would it?

You wouldn't inhibit me from making new threads or posts. I don't plan on being at these forums for very much longer, but that was something I thought about the day I signed up.

I could have asked in the other way, but I'm not an INFJ so I didn't want to ask if INFPs were jealous of INFJs.

No worries though. Nothing was meant to hurt anyone.

Hi there new person. Welcome to the forum. It's a good question, and an interesting one to explore, but you'll find that there are a few factors at play you don't have background into that will undoubtedly impact the answers you receive here. First, there has been some historically challenging interactions between INFPs and INFJs on this forum exploring some of the differences between our types. I myself have been a participant in some of these discussions, and I have learned a lot, but that learning has come at a cost in that some of the INFJs here may thus direct an animosity at my current posting. No matter, I feel it's important to give you some background so that you don't feel like you've just inadvertently stepped onto thin ice (which you have) without hope of rescue. You need to know that this will potentially be a provocative exploration.

Second, this thread already shows some common patterns. Questioning your intention, deflection from emotional examination, "this person must not be an INFJ" comments, "all humans can be jealous" comments -- these are things that INFJs say because they have little inner sense of the Fi space, in themselves and certainly not in other people. This kind of data is not on their radar and they have a hard time believing it even exists. They discern patterns in people through Ni - an elaborate reading of micro-expressions which is highly attuned to picking up discrepanices. But they do not feel emotional data has weight and seldom know what their own emotions are never mind examining them for critical judgement. So, I would take a few of those comments with a grain of salt and have awareness they're not intended to make you make you feel bad, INFJs are just terrible at dealing with these types of questions in a forum environment where they can't really see you or your micro-expressions in order to render better judgements.

Thirdly, INFJs are mostly nice, but sometimes they're not. They create an internal picture of what they are and try to live out that picture. Sometimes though, when they see themselves as nice, everything they do is seen through that lens and it proves practically impossible for them to believe that anything they've done is not for the best for everyone. Like, their intention was that it was nice for you, so why don't you think it was nice? I AM NICE! I TRIED TO MAKE THIS WONDERFUL FOR YOU, UNGRATEFUL SOT!

Ultimately, are INFJs jealous of INFPs? Not really, not in my experience. But they do envy some of the adaptability we possess, envy the types of bonds we can at times forge with others that they feel evade them, envy some of the in-the-moment spontaneity. It manifests sometimes as backhanded compliments. But mostly INFJs see us as kind of selfish and pitiable, esp from an emotional perspective.

Then your consistent turn-up in these threads over the years with delicately veiled animosity is positively screaming.

But your motivations are as pure as the driven snow darling.

(oh, and I noticed you didn't quote [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]'s post either so she must be included on your side then, naturally. Actually, fid is trying to be helpful, but you ?? maybe not so much right now.)

Another common INFJ pattern though -- classic double-standard in judgement.

 

[Fidelia]

If it's any comfort, infjs do take in stuff even when they appear unreceptive and they will mull it over. We are more malleable than it might seem although I think we all tend to dig in our heels if someone tries to direct our thinking or processing themselves instead of giving input and then leaving us to do something with it.

I do think processing is a huge and exhausting job for us, so we take awhile and most things cannot be dealt with in real time. There's usually some lag. Often others think that out react is a real time one, when in fact we are responding to the last interaction. This can be frustrating and confusing.

In general, I'd say that we respond better to an indirect approach. I know this sounds terribly inflexible. I think we need fairly rigid external circumstances to accommodate the more pliable inward core, while in some regards, infps are more externally accommodating, but more rssolute inside.

 

[Forever]

[MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]. Definitely agree. We take everything into consideration no matter how off we are.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Why can't we get along like these guys?

I mean, look at 'em. They're having a whale of a time.

- - - Updated - - -

Why can't we get along like these guys?

I mean, look at 'em. They're having a whale of a time.



eta: I challenge any of you to find a more spectacular double-post.

 

[ChrisFergusonFl]

INFJ's and INFP's respect each other's differences well I think.

Way better than ENTJ's and ENTP's.

And this is coming from an ENTJ.

 

[Virgo1987]

Me showing up is like cousin Eddie's arrival. But it just wouldn't be the same without me, now would it?



Hi there new person. Welcome to the forum. It's a good question, and an interesting one to explore, but you'll find that there are a few factors at play you don't have background into that will undoubtedly impact the answers you receive here. First, there has been some historically challenging interactions between INFPs and INFJs on this forum exploring some of the differences between our types. I myself have been a participant in some of these discussions, and I have learned a lot, but that learning has come at a cost in that some of the INFJs here may thus direct an animosity at my current posting. No matter, I feel it's important to give you some background so that you don't feel like you've just inadvertently stepped onto thin ice (which you have) without hope of rescue. You need to know that this will potentially be a provocative exploration.

Second, this thread already shows some common patterns. Questioning your intention, deflection from emotional examination, "this person must not be an INFJ" comments, "all humans can be jealous" comments -- these are things that INFJs say because they have little inner sense of the Fi space, in themselves and certainly not in other people. This kind of data is not on their radar and they have a hard time believing it even exists. They discern patterns in people through Ni - an elaborate reading of micro-expressions which is highly attuned to picking up discrepanices. But they do not feel emotional data has weight and seldom know what their own emotions are never mind examining them for critical judgement. So, I would take a few of those comments with a grain of salt and have awareness they're not intended to make you make you feel bad, INFJs are just terrible at dealing with these types of questions in a forum environment where they can't really see you or your micro-expressions in order to render better judgements.

Thirdly, INFJs are mostly nice, but sometimes they're not. They create an internal picture of what they are and try to live out that picture. Sometimes though, when they see themselves as nice, everything they do is seen through that lens and it proves practically impossible for them to believe that anything they've done is not for the best for everyone. Like, their intention was that it was nice for you, so why don't you think it was nice? I AM NICE! I TRIED TO MAKE THIS WONDERFUL FOR YOU, UNGRATEFUL SOT!

Ultimately, are INFJs jealous of INFPs? Not really, not in my experience. But they do envy some of the adaptability we possess, envy the types of bonds we can at times forge with others that they feel evade them, envy some of the in-the-moment spontaneity. It manifests sometimes as backhanded compliments. But mostly INFJs see us as kind of selfish and pitiable, esp from an emotional perspective.




But your motivations are as pure as the driven snow darling.

(oh, and I noticed you didn't quote [MENTION=7111]fidelia[/MENTION]'s post either so she must be included on your side then, naturally. Actually, fid is trying to be helpful, but you ?? maybe not so much right now.)

Another common INFJ pattern though -- classic double-standard in judgement.

I'll try to not apologize, but it's kind of a habit. I know that sometimes I do say things to get a rile out of someone, but I never do it meanly or for something serious -- and I feel this is serious because it relates to my INFJ friend.

I kind of sensed that people here (infjs) thought I was here attacking them, but that was truly never my intent. I thought it was easy for people to admit they were jealous (big or small), but I guess I was wrong. I used to be like that, but I realized a handful of years ago that I'm a jealous person about certain things.

Well that's not very good if mostly INFJs see us as selfish and pitiable. That means that all that I said to my friend about myself was just stupid and pointless -- and that I was selfish and looking for pity.

That means there's no hope for the friendship whatsoever because if who I am as an INFP makes her envious (or finds me to be selfish and pitiful) then in her eyes I must be worthless or worthless to her.

BTW: love your clip. I was just watching Vegas Vacation last night. Love me some Chevy Chase!

 

[Fidelia]

I'm not sure that infj's think that across the board. I think that Fi is hard for infjs to understand as a function, and can lead to misunderstandings, but I will say that I have many close NFP friends that I value greatly.

 

[Virgo1987]

If it's any comfort, infjs do take in stuff even when they appear unreceptive and they will mull it over. We are more malleable than it might seem although I think we all tend to dig in our heels if someone tries to direct our thinking or processing themselves instead of giving input and then leaving us to do something with it.

I do think processing is a huge and exhausting job for us, so we take awhile and most things cannot be dealt with in real time. There's usually some lag. Often others think that out react is a real time one, when in fact we are responding to the last interaction. This can be frustrating and confusing.

In general, I'd say that we respond better to an indirect approach. I know this sounds terribly inflexible. I think we need fairly rigid external circumstances to accommodate the more pliable inward core, while in some regards, infps are more externally accommodating, but more rssolute inside.

The LAST interaction? Well then that can't be good at all considering what the last interaction was.

So nothing about the entire friendship (good and bad) makes any connection with their processing?

An indirect approach... what would that mean exactly? That there needs to be witnesses of their interaction with the person they're having conflicts with?

 

[Fidelia]

No, I mean just wait till things cool off, talk about things in general terms and test the waters a bit first. By last interaction, I just mean that for the infj, the present interaction is being informed by all your previous communication, not the current one as most people do. One good thing or bad thing can make them review everything else in a different light. Nothing it ever set in stone forever unless they've really given up hope which they don't easily with anyone who has been very close to them. I'm saying there's hope and just trying to give you a peek into how they process if it is useful.

 

[Virgo1987]

I'm not sure that infj's think that across the board. I think that Fi is hard for infjs to understand as a function, and can lead to misunderstandings, but I will say that I have many close NFP friends that I value greatly.

Have these friends ever hurt you and to what degree have they? Were they very aware (or even a little aware) of what they were doing to you? Did you doorslam them?

No need to get personal and in-depth either, just curious.

 

[PeaceBaby]

That means there's no hope for the friendship whatsoever because if who I am as an INFP makes her envious (or finds me to be selfish and pitiful) then in her eyes I must be worthless or worthless to her.

Well, that's not an accurate conclusion to come to from my post. There's a whole swath in the center of interaction that is usually very close and mutually fulfilling -- INFPs and INFJs can be and are wonderful friends, kind of the best dynamic duo there is when communications are working well. What you need to hold solid awareness of is that INFJs will always remember what you do, and if you did what you said you would do. That's the data they track, as a person is primarily as good as their word and their actions stemming from that word. If you remember that your friend is tracking all of the OUTER manifestations of what you do, down to the minutia, not to be controlling but to verify their placing trust in you and to be able to predict your future behaviour (since that's the data they utilize for relationship building) you will be fine. Your affection is genuine, so try to make your outer behaviour match the inner feeling.

 

[Virgo1987]

No, I mean just wait till things cool off, talk about things in general terms and test the waters a bit first. By last interaction, I just mean that for the infj, the present interaction is being informed by all your previous communication, not the current one as most people do. One good thing or bad thing can make them review everything else in a different light. Nothing it ever set in stone forever unless they've really given up hope which they don't easily with anyone who has been very close to them. I'm saying there's hope and just trying to give you a peek into how they process if it is useful.

Oh okay. Sorry that I misunderstood.

I sure hope so.

She won't communicate with me at all so I've backed off a great deal, but it's not like I'm not waiting to hear back from her.

I don't know if infj's realize how just leaving a person alone with all of these thoughts isn't easy. I sometimes think she feels I'm able to bounce back from her not being around because I'm able to be friends with all sorts of different people, but that isn't the truth. Sure, I'm talking to all my other friends, but she's still missing.

And in some weird way I wonder if that's from jealousy. I wonder her telling me to talk badly about her (if it were true) to one of my other friends in one email to then telling me in another email that she doesn't know "why you would want to be friends with a person like me".

Confused.

Thanks though!

 

[Ghost]

I'm not going to respond to the original post directly. Instead, I'll speculate based on a few of [MENTION=28278]Virgo1987[/MENTION]'s posts.

I do think it's possible for some FJs to be jealous of FPs in a way (and I'm not limiting this to INFJ/INFP). They don't even need to be aware of type, really. It's based on a perception that FPs are impervious to influence somehow. They see FPs doing their thing and think that FPs don't think about other people or care what others think, that the external holds no sway with FPs at all. So some FJs feel that they're lost in the turbulence of relationships while FPs have it easy and aren't bothered by anything to the same extent. It's not true because there are certainly INFPs who care, even about the same things. For the ones who seem less affected by it, they still have a different set of standards and expectations tugging at them.

I think it's common for people to look at each other and think, "Well, that person has it easier than I do." I also think that without knowing what they experience internally, you can't know that. Every type probably has a version of this, so that there are people within each type who think they're special in their suffering or perceived place in the world.

I wouldn't be surprised if people look at IxxPs and decide we aren't concerned with much based on our attitudes.

My mom is an ESFJ, and sometimes I get the sense that she thinks I have it easy because thinking of others isn't a priority for me. If I'm not bothered by my relationships and where I stand with people, then it must be smooth sailing, right? But it doesn't work that way at all. I may be focused elsewhere. That means I'll be bothered by things that may not even be on her radar. It's the same in reverse.

Regarding your friend and her writing, I have two things in mind. One is that she doesn't have anything to say or a particular vision she needs to get across. In that case, type doesn't matter. I've seen people of various types asking questions and needing guidance because they don't know where to go. I think there's some insecurity and/or uncertainty involved. Once you know what you're aiming for, you can make those decisions yourself.

The second thing I was thinking is something that I'm assuming is type related, but I can't be sure. I've seen people do a thing where they "write by committee." They have lots of people vet their ideas for them and go with what comes out of that process. I'm talking about people who have dozens of beta readers or people who whittle down ideas tournament-style, going with the one more people favored. It's like they want some sort of consensus, for lack of a better term, before moving forward. I can't say I understand this, but there are people who work this way, and I've noticed FJs doing it. I don't see INFJs as being separate from the other FJs in a special way, so I'm including them in that. One INFJ writer I know of tries to get everyone to agree with her ideas of how to write her story. It's like knowing what she wants to do isn't enough, and she needs other people's confirmation before she gets to work. She'll spend time convincing them instead of doing what she already wants to do. Most INFJs aren't like this, but it's not impossible.

(On rereading this, I'm about 78% sure most of this post doesn't address your actual questions. Oops.)

She's probably a mistyped INFP. They can test as INFJ because they're judging first people then perceive.

I'm just going to say that I find this sort of thinking lazy. Even if her friend is mistyped, that doesn't automatically make her an INFP.

 

[Virgo1987]

Well, that's not an accurate conclusion to come to from my post. There's a whole swath in the center of interaction that is usually very close and mutually fulfilling -- INFPs and INFJs can be and are wonderful friends, kind of the best dynamic duo there is when communications are working well. What you need to hold solid awareness of is that INFJs will always remember what you do, and if you did what you said you would do. That's the data they track, as a person is primarily as good as their word and their actions stemming from that word. If you remember that your friend is tracking all of the OUTER manifestations of what you do, down to the minutia, not to be controlling but to verify their placing trust in you and to be able to predict your future behaviour (since that's the data they utilize for relationship building) you will be fine. Your affection is genuine, so try to make your outer behaviour match the inner feeling.

That's not even fair though. I understand what you're saying, but how can another human being track another human being? If you decide to be friends with someone, why are you tracking what they say and what they do?

In the sense of my friend and I, I did hold up my word. I said I would write with her. It was her that fell behind because every word wasn't perfect (or because I would try and undo what she wrote because of the one time I undid something indirectly -- yet I didn't know this until like 40 days ago)

I knew she was tracking me. That's the weird thing. The more I think about it all, I knew she was tracking me because even when I was trying NOT to offend her, I felt like I was offending her. I felt like she never could forgive me for things I was unaware of or things we said to each other LONG before we were young adults/30-somethings. I tried to make it better, but I also tried to stay true to who I was and I still messed up.

So what does that prove?

I never did anything to her to make her not trust me. Except for one thing. I never gave her any reason not to trust me. She told me she didn't trust anyone and then she shared things with me. I didn't laugh, I didn't poke fun of her, I only tried to help by trying to relate to her (ie: give her experiences that I went through that shared the same emotions she as feeling). She even told me "That doesn't make me want to trust you. That isn't friendship." Well la-dee-da, you don't trust anybody in the first place. Sure, I asked her why didn't she trust me even in the slightest, but if she continued through our friendship (or her whole life) no trusting me or anyone, I wouldn't even care. It wouldn't make me think of her as any less of a friend.

That's just unfair. I won't say I'm not deserving -- I won't even say that I haven't acted childishly, insecurely, selfishly, and carelessly, but I admit that. I admit things that true and things I see and then I try to fix things.

Oh well -- I do thank you for your insight though.