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Coronavirus

Virtual ghost

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As we discussed before, in resume there is a whole analysis to be made, like daily deaths, transmission rate, capacity of hospitals, etc...
Some countries are ok opening.
Not mine and not US (the center of discussions here) either.



To be clear.
My point was related to general discourse here. Therefore the point was that it is possible to solve the pandemic with relatively small lost of life and jobs. However for that you need order, genuine structure and common sense. Something to which some people here resist for years. In this part of the world this structure is almost sacred since it has no real alternative when the real shit hits. Therefore I simply can't understand that some people just don't get it. Therefore I think I will retread from threads like this one, since this is a show into which I don't really belong (and I made my cases).




Anyway, another good day here: now even the number of people in critical condition has fallen to a single digit. While new cases are also in single digit for today and there are no dead today.
 

ceecee

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I never complained about them. I just pointed out how you use them.

Are you in the bathroom laughing at yourself now?;)

I always laugh that Antifa is your go to comparison. I mean, everyone should inherently be Anti Fascist unless.....you're not.

Ether way, there is a reason Antifa hasn't been seen in the same vicinity as your moronic brothers and sisters (you self-identify as conservative and so do they. Take your complaints to them). Antifa removed your go to "pointed out how you use them" example so these "protests" are 100% on the right. Like I said, keep it up.
 

anticlimatic

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I always laugh that Antifa is your go to comparison. I mean, everyone should inherently be Anti Fascist unless.....you're not. Ether way, there is a reason Antifa hasn't been seen in the same vicinity as your moronic brothers and sisters (you self-identify as conservative and so do they. Take your complaints to them). Antifa removed your go to "pointed out how you use them" example so these "protests" are 100% on the right. Like I said, keep it up.
If there's a victory point to be had for you somewhere in this word salad I'm afraid I don't see it. I personally don't need to constantly point at dumb people to feel smart, though it is a category I file most protestors under, left or right.
 

Vendrah

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Therefore I think I will retread from threads like this one, since this is a show into which I don't really belong (and I made my cases).

Yeah, Im considering it either, you were also being way more patient than I on your answers.
In one form or another I dont belong either and made my case as well.
 

Jaguar

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Virtual ghost

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Yeah, Im considering it either, you were also being way more patient than I on your answers.
In one form or another I dont belong either and made my case as well.



True, I could have been far more nasty but I never clearly saw what would that achieve. I would only discredit myself. Usually everywhere I play "the voice of reason" card so I did that in this thread as well. Especially since I seem to live in the county where information regarding this is much better communicated towards the public.


I mean all this is now obviously just a pissing contest between Americans and I simply don't belong to this "party". I will remain in my global thread and forum in general, but arguing here daily about the virus when it is obvious that America will do what it will do is kinda pointless. Even before all this I was skeptic on country having sane future but with the pandemic every problem went into a clear overdrive. Therefore all of this is probably closed case. If you permanently open economy while having a million active cases and you probably have another million or two in undetected cases you will almost surely get out of control pandemic (and then there is no going back). Just today I was listening the conference with one of our top doctors in the response to pandemic and she said "Herd immunity and similar strategies just don't work here, the virus is simply too contagious, too deadly and recovery lasts. Therefore everywhere where this was tried there was a disaster of some kind. Plus there are still no real studies in how long anti-bodies last or will they protect in the case of mutation".
 

anticlimatic

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but arguing here daily about the virus when it is obvious that America will do what it will do is kinda pointless.

Finally came around to what I had been saying all along, I see. It was eventual. As a "voice of reason" myself, I appreciate your ability to communicate. Don't think your time in this thread is or was wasted.
 

Maou

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Sovereignty =/= oppression by definition or fact. But you'd like people to believe it does. You could be stopped on the street from urinating on a small child and probably still claim you're being oppressed in some manner, or your constitutional rights are being infringed upon.
A government oppresses things it wants to control. Oppression can also refer to institutionalized racism. So yeah, a monopoly on oppression too. Oppression isn't defined by suffering, its defined by unjust control. Regardless of what you think needs to be controlled or not, it still is oppression.
 

Virtual ghost

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Finally came around to what I had been saying all along, I see. It was eventual. As a "voice of reason" myself, I appreciate your ability to communicate. Don't think your time in this thread is or was wasted.




Well, I never through that I will shift the country but I was hopping that I can at least shift the narrative on this forum. However the lines are so entrenched that this is now nothing but an echo chamber that is anxiety based. Plus to put cards on the table: as the numbers suggest here the pandemic is over for now and therefore I have things to do. After all I made my case.
 

Vendrah

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True, I could have been far more nasty but I never clearly saw what would that achieve. I would only discredit myself. Usually everywhere I play "the voice of reason" card so I did that in this thread as well. Especially since I seem to live in the county where information regarding this is much better communicated towards the public.


I mean all this is now obviously just a pissing contest between Americans and I simply don't belong to this "party". I will remain in my global thread and forum in general, but arguing here daily about the virus when it is obvious that America will do what it will do is kinda pointless. Even before all this I was skeptic on country having sane future but with the pandemic every problem went into a clear overdrive. Therefore all of this is probably closed case. If you permanently open economy while having a million active cases and you probably have another million or two in undetected cases you will almost surely get out of control pandemic (and then there is no going back). Just today I was listening the conference with one of our top doctors in the response to pandemic and she said "Herd immunity and similar strategies just don't work here, the virus is simply too contagious, too deadly and recovery lasts. Therefore everywhere where this was tried there was a disaster of some kind. Plus there are still no real studies in how long anti-bodies last or will they protect in the case of mutation".

Thanks for that.
Your opinion is not minority on the forum, but a lot of us that have it doesnt have the patience to post, answer, etc.. Because it does stress. But its been pointless to discuss that. We are already at 200 pages, and... You know and understand, right?

A government oppresses things it wants to control. Oppression can also refer to institutionalized racism. So yeah, a monopoly on oppression too. Oppression isn't defined by suffering, its defined by unjust control. Regardless of what you think needs to be controlled or not, it still is oppression.

Corporations do pretty much the same thing and most things you said before that the government does can be done by big corporations either.

The most objective approach I found so far is from Meritocracy party: "There are good and bad governments"... I would even complement that there are good and bad markets as well, and in the end, people themselves play a good role into it. But there are various things that not even great markets can do (like handling the virus) and some few things the state cant do.
Bad corporations and bad governments doesnt care that much about their population, but the latter has to at least pretend to do so and, if you are not on dictatorship, the latter can be questioned and at least pressed through voting. You wont expect to elect anyone on the former but you can expect to elect someone in the latter. For the former, being not caring is part of the system, part of the game, but that is not for the latter.
 

Z Buck McFate

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We get our news from the same place everyone else does. We just trust that the opposite of whatever they are peddling is the truth, and oddly enough, it works out. Like watching accidental satire, but understanding the joke.

Obviously this is selective, since it's not possible to assume absolutely every single thing said is the opposite of the truth. It would be interesting to hear how that process of selection plays out.

And by "works out", it'd be interesting to hear how results are corroborated with reality. Like, if your neighbors also believe it, then clearly it really is the truth and you 'selected' the correct thing to believe the opposite of?

eta: I guess, also, I can't help but suspect this is largely a facetious/trollish answer. Because I know it would be pointless to say the same thing about Trump's daily "briefings". I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that nearly everything out of his mouth is - if not an absolute lie, then - a mostly fabricated, dishonest answer. And it wouldn't make sense to say I get my news by assuming the opposite of everything he says is true. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't *create* news, it doesn't *create* a perception to believe in, it just creates a void. So your answer just doesn't make much sense.
 

ceecee

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A government oppresses things it wants to control. Oppression can also refer to institutionalized racism. So yeah, a monopoly on oppression too. Oppression isn't defined by suffering, its defined by unjust control. Regardless of what you think needs to be controlled or not, it still is oppression.

The government has a monopoly on violence. Corporation control the US government. So corporations have a monopoly on oppression and unjust control. And here you are - the oppressed is defending the oppressor - conservatives provide such primo apologia for destructive capitalism.
 

anticlimatic

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Well, I never through that I will shift the country but I was hopping that I can at least shift the narrative on this forum. However the lines are so entrenched that this is now nothing but an echo chamber that is anxiety based. Plus to put cards on the table: as the numbers suggest here the pandemic is over for now and therefore I have things to do. After all I made my case.

Shift the narrative on this forum? You are the narrative on this forum. Or at least an unusually cool headed version of it. Poll the members if you disagree.
 

anticlimatic

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Obviously this is selective, since it's not possible to assume absolutely every single thing said is the opposite of the truth. It would be interesting to hear how that process of selection plays out.

And by "works out", it'd be interesting to hear how results are corroborated with reality. Like, if your neighbors also believe it, then clearly it really is the truth and you 'selected' the correct thing to believe the opposite of?

eta: I guess, also, I can't help but suspect this is largely a facetious/trollish answer. Because I know it would be pointless to say the same thing about Trump's daily "briefings". I'm pretty sure it's safe to say that nearly everything out of his mouth is - if not an absolute lie, then - a mostly fabricated, dishonest answer. And it wouldn't make sense to say I get my news by assuming the opposite of everything he says is true. That doesn't make any sense. That doesn't *create* news, it doesn't *create* a perception to believe in, it just creates a void. So your answer just doesn't make much sense.

I feel like you're too close to it. Seeing trees instead of the forest. Not in general, but in regards to human nature, in regards to their "politics." Or more precisely, their values. There is a common understanding that people are infinitely malleable; that they are whatever they are taught to be. Yet we are also structured, and hierarchical. Not just in society but internally in our own ideas. We are malleable, but not infinitely. We are structures, molded in layers, and the deeper or older the layer the more it "sets," like old putty. Values come from pretty much inaccessible layers with very little chance of being reshaped, and those values interpret the data our freshest layers receive. This is how two people, with different values, can listen to the same thing yet hear completely different things. This is my personal understanding of human nature at least. People aren't programmed by their media. They are programmed by their experiences, and media panders to those experiences to make a buck.
 

Mind Maverick

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Z Buck McFate

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I feel like you're too close to it. Seeing trees instead of the forest. Not in general, but in regards to human nature, in regards to their "politics." Or more precisely, their values. There is a common understanding that people are infinitely malleable; that they are whatever they are taught to be. Yet we are also structured, and hierarchical. Not just in society but internally in our own ideas. We are malleable, but not infinitely. We are structures, molded in layers, and the deeper or older the layer the more it "sets," like old putty. Values come from pretty much inaccessible layers with very little chance of being reshaped, and those values interpret the data our freshest layers receive. This is how two people, with different values, can listen to the same thing yet hear completely different things. This is my personal understanding of human nature at least. People aren't programmed by their media. They are programmed by their experiences, and media panders to those experiences to make a buck.

I feel compelled to point out that this still just another evasive non-answer. It doesn't make sense to say you simply trust "the opposite" of what the media is peddling, because a list of incorrect information doesn't consequently give you correct information. It just gives you a list of which information is incorrect.

If this were an effective approach to discern correct information, then scientists could bring difficult questions to preschoolers - who would reliably give them an incorrect answer - in order to derive the correct answer from it. Looking at a broken clock (trusting that the clock is broken, and that it probably isn't one of those two seconds each day when the clock is accidentally correct) will only tell you what time it isn't, not what time it is.

You wrote "the entire media, and most of the people on the left" want to "keep everything locked down forever until there is a vaccine."

Reopening in stages is the only way to go. Only nut jobs want to reopen everything or keep everything locked down forever until there is a vaccine. This includes right wing loons, the entire media, and most people on the left.

There's two things going on here. One is that, almost immediately after pointing out how annoying incorrect generalizations about Republicans are (and pointing out how 'untrustworthy' the media is for probably giving that impression), you made incorrect generalizations of your own about "the entire media and most people on the left". I was trying to highlight that. If you're going to point out how annoying it is to be on the business end of that, consider not also doing it yourself.

Secondly - let's suppose you did somehow work out that the entire media and most people on the left want to keep everything locked down forever until there is a vaccine from some 'opposite' narrative that the media reported. I mean, I'd love to hear exactly what that specific narrative is - for that assertion to be the invariable conclusion as opposite. But more importantly: if that's the conclusion that you came to, then clearly "trusting the opposite" doesn't reliably "work itself out" to give accurate, correct information. Because it's an incorrect generalization. That's why I bounced your facetious "very trustworthy" qualifier about source back at you.

But I'm splitting hairs here. The main point is you're still just being evasive about what your typical source is because it isn't possible to consistently derive reliably correct information from a source of reliably incorrect information.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Okay let's be real here:
I would love to imagine they are bots, but what proof do they actually have that this is a bot? And why are they considered trolls? I feel like doing this is just...more of the name-calling which occurs. I think these people are wrong but sadly, they are NOT trolling.

This is actually explained in the article. Did you simply read the headline and assume it was baseless name-calling?
 

Virtual ghost

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Shift the narrative on this forum? You are the narrative on this forum. Or at least an unusually cool headed version of it. Poll the members if you disagree.


I will take that as a compliment. :)


However here I am just me being me ....




Plus I have the benefit that for me all of this isn't the first time. I was growing up for years in the social climate of oblivion through which most of the forum is going through now for the first time. Therefore I can only add that others should probably lower their political posting and focus on something more light or practical in real life. Since this is all just extra stress which can't really produce anything of value.
 

anticlimatic

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I will take that as a compliment. :) However here I am just me being me .... Plus I have the benefit that for me all of this isn't the first time. I was growing up for years in the social climate of oblivion through which most of the forum is going through now for the first time. Therefore I can only add that others should probably lower their political posting and focus on something more light or practical in real life. Since this is all just extra stress which can't really produce anything of value.
It was a compliment. Unlike a lot of what I can only assume are normal people considering their numbers, I don't have to agree with someone's perspective to respect them or enjoy speaking with them. I don't know why political discussions need to be stressful, but everyone is different and has their reasons I guess.
 
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