Coronavirus

[Jaguar]

Flatten the curve, and then it crushes the children? Think of the importance of nutrition in developing brains, and consider the far-reaching implications for society.



This is just one example among many of why politicians (from all parties) often make poor leaders. How many of them would sit around their table debating politics while their own kids were going hungry?

As Hunger Swells, Food Stamps Become a Partisan Flash Point - The New York Times

Its current form dates to a 1977 compromise between two Senate lions, the liberal George McGovern and the conservative Bob Dole. But almost simultaneously Ronald Reagan added to a stream of racialized attacks on the program, invoking the image of a “strapping young buck” who used food stamps to buy steaks. As president, Reagan went on to enact large cuts.

One more reason why Reagan annoyed me. If he wasn't standing around like a do-nothing, lazy motherfucker when HIV hit the country, he was fucking around with food stamps.

 

[Maou]

The supreme court ruled. Deal with it.

Still doesnt mean its constitutional. Justices do this all the time. Just like the ones that tried to stop Trump's legal authority on immigration.

Also, no one is calling for anyone to die. Its just been proven that 60% of new Corona virus cases are from thise who obeyed they stay at home order. Aka, its pretty ineffective. I'd argue more people will start to starve, lose their livelihoods and riot, because of the lockdown than anything else. Which is going to create a much bigger problem than Covid real quick. You can't just tell people with no money to sit tight for several more months. So really, making violating it illegal is just a scam to make money off of fines. Because they can't be put in jail, due to the virus as well. States are starving for income too, and they will sure as fuck abuse the pandemic for prsonal gain and power.

 

[Jaguar]

doesnt mean its constitutional.

Doesn't mean it's not. You should make a sign that reads "It's unconstitutional" and walk around the streets holding it. You'll feel better.

 

[anticlimatic]

I have to agree, this isn't really her fault directly. The government should have given everyone for food and basic things, postpone the bills and expect that everyone that truly isn't essential stays at home. If economy was really in the hibernation the corporations wouldn't need that much of a bailout and that money should have been given to the people. While not acting on time as a country really wasn't her personal fault. Plus the jail and 7000$ is evidently an overkill in my book. Personally I would go further than 300$ and "go back to your family". But to be honest I cringe a little every time American goes "government this, government that". Does you government: Does it pay your medical bills when you are really sick and not old ? No Does it pay your entire collage tuition ? No Does it take extra effort to remove any forms of crime from the street ? No Does it respects laws closely ? Generally No Does it respects international laws and institutions closely ? Generally no Do you elect your head of the government with a popular vote ? No Does your government takes extra effort that food, water and air aren't toxic ? Generally no It is possible to shut down the government ? Yes (and to me this is WTF) Etc. In other words why even call "this" government ? To me "this" whatever it really is simply doesn't really fit into the definition of "government". In other words I am getting impression that almost everyone in US wouldn't be nearly as anti-government as they are is in the case that you actually have one. Food for thought.

Ha. You still don't understand America? We are founded in avoiding as much governmental power and control as possible. Although we are constantly creeping down the same road as most other nations with our government ever steadily acquiring more and more power, we are a very young country with distinct values that is still very far from authoritarian/socialism homogeneity with the rest of the world. Where our two party system works, considering that the split is so even that the executive branch rotates regularly between the two parties, is that there are absolute deal breakers on both sides regarding government acquisition of power, so that no politician dare try to fully go there- the left rejects right wing authoritarianism and the right rejects left wing authoritarianism. In this case government interfered by forcing people out of buisness, but is too large and ill equipped to provide substitute income fast and well enough to everyone that needs it. The interference was partly to save lives, but mostly to save politicians careers. If this were a younger iteration of the US, the fed would not have done much, and the virus would be running its course naturally towards swift herd immunity with a higher death toll. But also with much less economic and sociological fallout, which I think could easily exceed the pain and hardship and grief of what would occur had they not interfered. So, since it was the government that forced this out of buisness without the ability to compensate her for it adequately, she should be allowed to work- not punished twice for the governments failing.

 

[Maou]

Doesn't mean it's not. You should make a sign that reads "It's unconstitutional" and walk around the streets holding it. You'll feel better.

Im not the one advocating for giving up freedoms permanently. The government won't give it back, once you allow them to do what they want regardless of your personal liberty and rights. No amount of deaths should be used to blackmail/brainwashing you into thinking its okay either. They did the same shit with Gun control. Going down this path, you will soon have shit like national cerfews to stop crime. Or mandatory rationing to stop obesity, all while the government saying its to save lives.

 

[ceecee]

Im not the one advocating for giving up freedoms permanently. The government won't give it back, once you allow them to do what they want regardless of your personal liberty and rights. No amount of deaths should be used to blackmail/brainwashing you into thinking its okay either. They did the same shit with Gun control. Going down this path, you will soon have shit like national cerfews to stop crime. Or mandatory rationing to stop obesity.

Or women's reproductive rights. This goes both ways.

 

[Maou]

I am pro-choice, btw.

 

[ceecee]

I am pro-choice, btw.

.

Never seen you mention it or anything about the sustained war from the right. You might find a few more allies if you did.

 

[Jaguar]

Im not the one advocating for giving up freedoms permanently.

Nor am I. Are you drinking again?

 

[Maou]

Nor am I. Are you drinking again?

God I wish.

You're not directly no, but I am just trying to express the consequences of that type of thinking, which to me looks like you are not even thinking about. I don't understand why it becomes a "you're with us, or against us" senario each time. People should respect the lockdown out of duty, but it shouldn't also be punishable by law to rebel against it. People have the right to die by their own stupidity. Besides, getting outside is important to not get sick as well. Being cooped up in winter is exactly how the flu spreads to begin with, not the weather. Corona is no different. People should be allowed to go places, and still also be able to abide by the 6 foot rule.

My state just got off lockdown, and Miami county just experienced its first day of no new cases or deaths. Everyone is still wearing masks.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ha. You still don't understand America? We are founded in avoiding as much governmental power and control as possible. Although we are constantly creeping down the same road as most other nations with our government ever steadily acquiring more and more power, we are a very young country with distinct values that is still very far from authoritarian/socialism homogeneity with the rest of the world. Where our two party system works, considering that the split is so even that the executive branch rotates regularly between the two parties, is that there are absolute deal breakers on both sides regarding government acquisition of power, so that no politician dare try to fully go there- the left rejects right wing authoritarianism and the right rejects left wing authoritarianism. In this case government interfered by forcing people out of buisness, but is too large and ill equipped to provide substitute income fast and well enough to everyone that needs it. The interference was partly to save lives, but mostly to save politicians careers. If this were a younger iteration of the US, the fed would not have done much, and the virus would be running its course naturally towards swift herd immunity with a higher death toll. But also with much less economic and sociological fallout, which I think could easily exceed the pain and hardship and grief of what would occur had they not interfered. So, since it was the government that forced this out of buisness without the ability to compensate her for it adequately, she should be allowed to work- not punished twice for the governments failing.

I would say I understand it, but I don't really agree with the premise.
The very fact that you are talking about "governmental power and control" means that you don't fully get my point. In general I have all of that what I named in that list and jet I don't really feel controlled by my government. Nowhere even close next to your level of concern about the issue. What is because there is catch in the equation. In my book when you put this much weight on the "individual freedoms" you automatically distort the idea of democratic government as well. In other words people who will make that government will be the people who are still clear individualists and they were risen by their environment to be that way. What in the end leads to the government officials that are likely to treat government as personal property or something made for their personal gain. Because their whole mindset is about competing basically until the day they die. What altogether in the end means that the government can't be trusted and will not create agreements and conclusions that are vital for good governing. However this is mostly because of people that are slaves to the "dog eats dog" worldview and as such they aren't ready for what the government is fundamentally about, making sure that people make it. Everything else is more of a "regime" even if you limit the terms to 4 years. This will be especially the case since "dog eats dog" people will be more likely to push through the people to get to the position in the government at any cost. Where they will pile up their mindset.



What I noticed in your posts and posts of others here is that you presume that the government is working against you. While I simply claim that this isn't something that is set is stone and that there are radically different types of government out there. However since this is corona thread I will dare to be more specific. From worldometer that I linked a number of times thus far your country for today has 15700 new cases and 1300 deaths, what will grow even further by the end of the day. While mine that uploads once a day has 6 new cases and one death today, even if we both started with patient 0 on our soil in relatively similar time. But the difference is that my big but relatively friendly government generally works for me while yours relatively small one in powers does not work for you. However the key difference is that mine isn't full of "dog eats dog people" that are inevitable product of very strong individualism. Therefore I dare to challenge your "worldview" since I find it masochistic in a certain sense. Personally I like idea of taxes and paying them, for me taxes are fundamentally just another form of investment and insurance. What in US is pure heresy. Therefore all what I am trying to say is that there are "alternative methods" of doing this and doing it well.

 

[anticlimatic]

But the difference is that my big but relatively friendly government generally works for me while yours relatively small one in powers does not work for you. Therefore all what I am trying to say is that there are "alternative methods" of doing this and doing it well.

You call this doing it well?

Twice as many people in your country are unemployed than they are here, and your current unemployment rate is 81% higher than the US. 40% more Croatians fall below the poverty line compared to the United States. Our minimum wage is 3 times yours. The cost of basic services, like water and electric, is about 40% more than the cost of the same in the US, which contributes to the fact that the average monthly disposable income for people here in the US (after the cost of living/paying bills), is about four times the average disposable income in your country. This extra money allows us to purchase, à la carte, the services your government provides for "free," depending on if we want or need them. Which leaves us with more resources to invest in other things that elevate our lives. Our quality of life index is 79% higher than Croatia because of this. Apartments cost 47% less here than they do there. Clothing and shoes cost 27% less too. Twice as many people here have vehicles. These are all perks of an economy as strong as ours, which is a direct product of capitalism and privatization. Even your own government is beginning to privatize parts of itself in an effort to get out of your economic slump. Your average death rate is 44% more than the US, cancer death rate is up 25%. Our overall healthcare system quality is 22% higher than yours.

Do you still feel like offering us "alternative methods?"

 

[Virtual ghost]

You call this doing it well?

Twice as many people in your country are unemployed than they are here, and your current unemployment rate is 81% higher than the US. 40% more Croatians fall below the poverty line compared to the United States. Our minimum wage is 3 times yours. The cost of basic services, like water and electric, is about 40% more than the cost of the same in the US, which contributes to the fact that the average monthly disposable income for people here in the US (after the cost of living/paying bills), is about four times the average disposable income in your country. This extra money allows us to purchase, à la carte, the services your government provides for "free," depending on if we want or need them. Which leaves us with more resources to invest in other things that elevate our lives. Our quality of life index is 79% higher than Croatia because of this. Apartments cost 47% less here than they do there. Clothing and shoes cost 27% less too. Twice as many people here have vehicles. These are all perks of an economy as strong as ours, which is a direct product of capitalism and privatization. Even your own government is beginning to privatize parts of itself in an effort to get out of your economic slump. Your average death rate is 44% more than the US, cancer death rate is up 25%. Our overall healthcare system quality is 22% higher than yours.

Do you still feel like offering us "alternative methods?"

Yes I do.



Especially because we survived 3 deadly wars on our soil over the last 100 years (together they lasted 12 years), plus a number of dictatorships that often lasted for decades. While America with it's logic probably wouldn't be able too fix all that damage. This was exactly my point, sometimes you have to take a look at the bigger picture than your own self interest. As I said million times before in the case we lived as you we probably wouldn't exist now. As a matter of fact now the real shit hit you as well and we see how that is going. However there are better countries of what I am saying since here last 100 years very fairly dark.


Yes, there are more unemployed here but their lives aren't complete shit and they all have health insurance covered and their kids can all go to college basically regardless of how much their parents make. Plus this 81% more is few percent more in absolute numbers (something like 4 vs. 7%) The fact that you are posting unemployment as a problem proves you don't get that here it isn't such a tragedy to be in this group. It is better to have a few percent more than having this category as "unlivable".



But I am relatively sure some of those numbers aren't fully correct or they include taxes with which we get college or healthcare for free at the spot. What is methodology that American economist will miss (as I said I like idea of taxes). Also apartments are surely more costly in US. If we count by relative standard of living is some cases maybe they are but at face value no way. Here something like 80+ percent lives in the place that is either owned by them or their family member, what proves certain affordability and stability. Also why have a car and all related expenses when public transport takes you to the other part of the city for 1.20$? Not to mention that here you can't go everywhere with a car. Yes, some things are getting more private, but that is because when I was a kid the government owned 100% in everything and that needs to be rationalized (and that is the process that still lasts. With which I am ok with since I am for mixed economy, not 100% government). Also you forgot to mention that we have multiple times smaller incarceration rate and almost no street crime. Homelessness is also quite low as well as being ultra fat. Also we have visibly smaller public debt next to gdp than you. and growth rate is about close most of the time. We have month every year of paid leave to do what ever we want. Prescription drugs are few dollars for the most part ... etc. However the beauty of the whole system can't really be expressed in money, which generally comes down to living more calmly. The whole point is exactly in that I am fundamentally rejecting your worldview. "I can get more stuff" to me isn't what I want out of life, especially since more stuff isn't always really better life.

 

[anticlimatic]

"I can get more stuff" to me isn't what I want out of life, especially since more stuff isn't always really better life.

It's not about stuff, it's about resources. Time and energy are also resources. You don't think having more of those would lead to a better life?

 

[Virtual ghost]

It's not about stuff, it's about resources. Time and energy are also resources. You don't think having more of those would lead to a better life?

Well, here people tend not to work 3 jobs for a living so they have more time. Plus as I said here paid leave for vacation is month a year (it is possible to take 2x2 weeks). Not to mention something like 14 public holidays. Which if they fall on Thursday you will perhaps get the Friday off as well. Overall it can perhaps be claimed that we have too much free time.
Resources are quite ok but your entire post has simplistic materialistic feeling: "We have 27% cheaper shoes in America!" style.



Sure, there are problems but I am getting impression that here life is much less of a struggle than in modern US. Especially now then the shit really hit the fan with the virus. Therefore as we here say "the chain in only strong as it's weakest link". The real question is what to do when real shit hits your territory, since everything can potentially pass in normal times. The question are times like these.

 

[ceecee]

Well, here people tend not to work 3 jobs for a living so they have more time. Plus as I said here paid leave for vacation is month a year (it is possible to take 2x2 weeks). Not to mention something like 14 public holidays. Which if they fall on Thursday you will perhaps get the Friday off as well. Overall it can perhaps be claimed that we have too much free time.
Resources are quite ok but your entire post has simplistic materialistic feeling: "We have 27% cheaper shoes in America!" style.



Sure, there are problems but I am getting impression that here life is much less of a struggle than in modern US. Especially now then the shit really hit the fan with the virus. Therefore as we here say "the chain in only strong as it's weakest link". The real question is what to do when real shit hits your territory, since everything can potentially pass in normal times. The question are times like these.

This is accurate for the vast majority of people in the US.

 

[Vendrah]

You call this doing it well?

Twice as many people in your country are unemployed than they are here, and your current unemployment rate is 81% higher than the US. 40% more Croatians fall below the poverty line compared to the United States. Our minimum wage is 3 times yours. The cost of basic services, like water and electric, is about 40% more than the cost of the same in the US, which contributes to the fact that the average monthly disposable income for people here in the US (after the cost of living/paying bills), is about four times the average disposable income in your country. This extra money allows us to purchase, à la carte, the services your government provides for "free," depending on if we want or need them. Which leaves us with more resources to invest in other things that elevate our lives. Our quality of life index is 79% higher than Croatia because of this. Apartments cost 47% less here than they do there. Clothing and shoes cost 27% less too. Twice as many people here have vehicles. These are all perks of an economy as strong as ours, which is a direct product of capitalism and privatization. Even your own government is beginning to privatize parts of itself in an effort to get out of your economic slump. Your average death rate is 44% more than the US, cancer death rate is up 25%. Our overall healthcare system quality is 22% higher than yours.

Do you still feel like offering us "alternative methods?"

The point here isnt comparing countries with numbers that were largely dependable on things that has nothing to do with Corona. These numbers were very likely the same before Corona anyway.

But actually, getting back into retrospection, the fact that your country is basically one of the richest in the world, with lots of money and income, with lots of life quality and etc... is dealing worse than a third-world country that perhaps was even Communism Russia backyard in the past (I think?) and it is doing worse than third-world countries in general, just make the general argument of [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION], and partially of me too, that the US is handling this Corona crisis in an incredible poor way even more stronger and right.

Thanks for pointing out how much structure and money the US has to handle this, and how poor these resources are all being used.

 

[Tellenbach]

Sweden got it right. Sure it has higher deaths than neighboring nations, but it won't be affected by the 2nd wave or the deaths due to the lock-down (from suicide and drug use). People who love the lock-down avoid talking about the deaths from economic hardship. If we had used the $2 to $3 trillion to protect nursing homes and the vulnerable, that would've been a better strategy than the idiocy pushed by public health officials, so kudos to Sweden.

 

[Virtual ghost]

This is accurate for the vast majority of people in the US.

I see another bailout or something and your public debt just passed 25 Trillion $ towards the debt clock (117% of GDP). While we plan to be at 87% at the end of the year and we have "free" healthcare and college. What is by good margin because we had this kind of problem in mind. I don't want to be empty moralist but at this point I do think I have a story/perspective to tell. Especially since for me this isn't the first long hiding inside. The first one lasted basically from 1th to 4th grade due to war (that I am mentioning too often). However that is basically why we thus far passed through the virus better than anyone really expected (ourselves included). Imagine what you have to be to go economically through 4 years of this level of mess and basically not only that you can lose family member at any time but also the entire real-estates. Plus if country gets overrun forget the currency and the constitution. However fixing that requires certain cooperation on everyone's part since you are going against the odds, but it can be done. Which is exactly why we here go more towards "harmony" in building of society since we are completely tired of the struggle, plus we must remain ready since here this comes every few decades.


However we have similar relationship with various west Europeans which we out performed due to collective effort, since most of those people have never seen "real problem". These are the times for "the end justifies the means", especially if that keeps people and the structure in one piece. The only measure is that it works and hopefully no one gets hurt. In a way this is why you have the "problems" in the eastern EU. Since people are afraid that with westernization they will not be ready when the shit hits. What is in out blood at this point but that is why none of the countries in this part of the world has more than 15000 registered cases, some don't even have a 1000 cases and they test people. Not being able to go through stuff like this is "our collective fear" and why we distort paradigms, since here the great change really hit every few decades. While all of your hard work will not mean anything if you can't go through something like this with reasonable loses, our family histories are full of "this". Therefore at lest in between problamtic periods we should have some kind of social harmony to have something out of life and the collective effort to fix the damage. Since you must be able to take damage at home and remain functional.

 

[anticlimatic]

Well, here people tend not to work 3 jobs for a living so they have more time. Plus as I said here paid leave for vacation is month a year (it is possible to take 2x2 weeks). Not to mention something like 14 public holidays. Which if they fall on Thursday you will perhaps get the Friday off as well. Overall it can perhaps be claimed that we have too much free time.
Resources are quite ok but your entire post has simplistic materialistic feeling: "We have 27% cheaper shoes in America!" style.



Sure, there are problems but I am getting impression that here life is much less of a struggle than in modern US. Especially now then the shit really hit the fan with the virus. Therefore as we here say "the chain in only strong as it's weakest link". The real question is what to do when real shit hits your territory, since everything can potentially pass in normal times. The question are times like these.

I'm glad you have benefits in your system. I think yours is a beautiful country, and I would not be uncomfortable there. I was not trying to use statistics to paint it as a bad place, I was only trying to explain how it is different here- the values, and the advantages we have as a result of those values and this system, and why they are worth preserving for us, as a rebuttal to your assertions that we could be on a better path. I disagree with that assertion, and am rather fond of our path. I wish the same sentiment for everyone, no matter what that path might be.

The US inherently has more struggle. The gap between richest and poorest is something like 40% higher in the US than your country. We also have far more crime, and a bit more obesity. There's always a cost. I do sympathize with my fellow americans who do not enjoy conflict, competition, or the necessity of ambition for survival. But I do not sympathize with their desire for change. There are enough places in the world that they could get what they seek if they can at least find the ambition to migrate to another nation. The uniqueness of this country should be preserved, as its perks are similarly unique. How badly this epidemic affects the US is up to the politicians. The left leaning ones seem set on making lock-downs the new status quo until the nation is radically altered and impoverished. Fortunately, we have enough representation from the right (not least of which from the white house), so I expect enough regions in the country will open up to accelerate the burnout of the virus, and allow us to get back on track. But we will see. Our governor just extended my state's lock-down (no surprise), but apart from reasonable social distancing and mask wearing, nobody is really having it. The wheels of industry have begun turning already.

Thanks for pointing out how much structure and money the US has to handle this, and how poor these resources are all being used.

Whatever floats your confirmation bias.