Coronavirus

[anticlimatic]

The starving children rebuttal. Really? You can do better than that. At least be creative.

Texas governor amends lockdown and orders salon owner freed from jail - BBC News

On Thursday, Gov Abbott said in a news release: "Throwing Texans in jail who have had their businesses shut down through no fault of their own is nonsensical, and I will not allow it to happen."

"That is why I am modifying my executive orders to ensure confinement is not a punishment for violating an order. This order is retroactive to April 2nd, supersedes local orders and if correctly applied should free Shelley Luther."

"As some county judges advocate for releasing hardened criminals from jail to prevent the spread of Covid-19, it is absurd to have these business owners take their place."

On Thursday, the Texas Supreme Court ordered her freed from a Dallas County jail.

Texas Attorney General Ken Paxton descried the judge's order as a "political stunt".

"We just thought that was way over the top," he told CBS. "It was an abuse of discretion and that the judge should not put people in jail like her who are just trying to make a living."

On Wednesday, Lieutenant Governor Dan Patrick tweeted that he would personally pay off Ms Luther's fine.

"7 days in jail, no bail and a $7K fine is outrageous," he wrote.

"No surprise Texans are responding. I'm covering the $7K fine she had to pay and I volunteer to be placed under House Arrest so she can go to work and feed her kids."

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'm glad you have benefits in your system. I think yours is a beautiful country, and I would not be uncomfortable there. I was not trying to use statistics to paint it as a bad place, I was only trying to explain how it is different here- the values, and the advantages we have as a result of those values and this system, and why they are worth preserving for us, as a rebuttal to your assertions that we could be on a better path. I disagree with that assertion, and am rather fond of our path. I wish the same sentiment for everyone, no matter what that path might be.

The US inherently has more struggle. The gap between richest and poorest is something like 40% higher in the US than your country. We also have far more crime, and a bit more obesity. There's always a cost. I do sympathize with my fellow americans who do not enjoy conflict, competition, or the necessity of ambition for survival. But I do not sympathize with their desire for change. There are enough places in the world that they could get what they seek if they can at least find the ambition to migrate to another nation. The uniqueness of this country should be preserved, as its perks are similarly unique. How badly this epidemic affects the US is up to the politicians. The left leaning ones seem set on making lock-downs the new status quo until the nation is radically altered and impoverished. Fortunately, we have enough representation from the right (not least of which from the white house), so I expect enough regions in the country will open up to accelerate the burnout of the virus, and allow us to get back on track. But we will see. Our governor just extended my state's lock-down (no surprise), but apart from reasonable social distancing and mask wearing, nobody is really having it. The wheels of industry have begun turning already.

I course that it is different, I am saying all of this exactly because it is different. In other words in the case that you have played your cards better you could have together with us make the exit out of this mess and live with much less uncertainty. But because of the loyalty to the principle you have waited with lockdown and did it in a way that doesn't really fulfill it's purpose. We can't teach you everything but how to keep country afloat against the odds should be one of the things we can. It is in our culture to suggest solutions to the others when they seem to need it. I have even read about Americans that came here to be annoyed over this but with time they came to appreciate that here people are much more likely to help one another or just share something. My point is exactly about why politics doesn't really matter that much if people don't have the mindset how to handle something like this. Since what really got as through the first wave is the people doing the right thing and here the government congratulated the people for doing this right. While politics pushed doctors under the spotlight since they are the only ones that have any idea what is really going on. Here we don't believe in "going down with the ship on a matter of principle" since there are simply too many opportunities for that. For us this leads nowhere as logic .



We will quickly see where you are going with all of this but I really don't like gambles of this scale.

 

[anticlimatic]

I course that it is different, I am saying all of this exactly because it is different. In other words in the case that you have played your cards better you could have together with us make the exit out of this mess and live with much less uncertainty. But because of the loyalty to the principle you have waited with lockdown and did it in a way that doesn't really fulfill it's purpose. We can't teach you everything but how to keep country afloat against the odds should be one of the things we can. It is in our culture to suggest solutions to the others when they seem to need it. I have even read about Americans that came here to be annoyed over this but with time they came to appreciate that here people are much more likely to help one another or just share something. My point is exactly about why politics doesn't really matter that much if people don't have the mindset how to handle something like this. Since what really got as through the first wave is the people doing the right thing and here the government congratulated the people for doing this right. While politics pushed doctors under the spotlight since they are the only ones that have any idea what is really going on. Here we don't believe in "going down with the ship on a matter of principle" since there are simply too many opportunities for that. For us this leads nowhere as logic . We will quickly see where you are going with all of this but I really don't like gambles of this scale.

Not to make you feel excluded from the discussion, but the advice you have to give us is already being suggested by half of our own here. Our left, which consistently prefers safety and low reward (like your country) over our more traditional national identity of higher risk higher reward, has been pressing for the same measures. The media adds fuel to both sides, providing additional fear to the left and additional mistrust for anything the media says to the right. If you think you can mediate between the left and the right in this country for the sake of coming together and achieving some kind of unity or progress, I'm sorry to have to disappoint you, but it won't be happening.

Also we are nowhere close to seeing the end of this thing. If you think your country is, answer me this. One of your primary industries is tourism. What's going to happen when you open your borders to a bunch of asymptomsyic travelers and expose them to your population? Your population of mostly unexposed and antibody weak citizens.

 

[ceecee]

The point here isnt comparing countries with numbers that were largely dependable on things that has nothing to do with Corona. These numbers were very likely the same before Corona anyway.

But actually, getting back into retrospection, the fact that your country is basically one of the richest in the world, with lots of money and income, with lots of life quality and etc... is dealing worse than a third-world country that perhaps was even Communism Russia backyard in the past (I think?) and it is doing worse than third-world countries in general, just make the general argument of [MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION], and partially of me too, that the US is handling this Corona crisis in an incredible poor way even more stronger and right.

Thanks for pointing out how much structure and money the US has to handle this, and how poor these resources are all being used.

Notice how you are not only wrong, you have a confirmation bias. Look how angry they get when you rattle their shit opinions, especially when confronted with someone viewing this from the outside the country. You're not an American, you couldn't possibly grasp this, right?

This is another reason that the capitalist machine and the people fighting for the dying system have to fight so hard for it and work endlessly to convince you that you have a mental barrier to understanding them - it can't be that they are simply wrong.

The more people that see this nonworking behemoth capitalism for what it is and who it benefits, will only convince more people that there are other economic methods to consider.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Not to make you feel excluded from the discussion, but the advice you have to give us is already being suggested by half of our own here. Our left, which consistently prefers safety and low reward (like your country) over our more traditional national identity of higher risk higher reward, has been pressing for the same measures. The media adds fuel to both sides, providing additional fear to the left and additional mistrust for anything the media says to the right. If you think you can mediate between the left and the right in this country for the sake of coming together and achieving some kind of unity or progress, I'm sorry to have to disappoint you, but it won't be happening.

Also we are nowhere close to seeing the end of this thing. If you think your country is, answer me this. One of your primary industries is tourism. What's going to happen when you open your borders to a bunch of asymptomsyic travelers and expose them to your population? Your population of mostly unexposed and antibody weak citizens.

Well, this strong measures are made by our right that pretty strongly cares about national identity (it is the party of our founding fathers). Therefore for me common sense and medicine should beat any kind of "subjective personal opinion". Left or right for me have no real place in this and this is exactly why I claim that your entire local political system is absurd in this issue. Either you understand the problem or you don't.



The tourism is in the question for this year.
The strong odds are will not open the country for the strangers except maybe for some of our closest neighbors in the case both sides have good pandemic numbers. These nations make something like 3/4 of our tourists anyway and we will have to be happy with that (We are ready for certain loses, which the government or EU will help cover to some further degree. So there will be some kind of a "salvage" of the tourist season. The only question is how big it will get).


But since all those close countries are showing good pandemic numbers except one that is just getting better at this point all of this is doable. Especially since our offer are mostly open spaces, we have enough of beaches for social distancing, proximity means that guests will arrive with personal cars, many of those people have houses and boats here so they will not really group or socialize. After all the best thing in my country is cruising on a boat among hundreds of islands (pure social distancing, perhaps even better than at home in a metropolis). Therefore this is technically doable if all the countries are at the few hundreds or thousands in known cases. While the test 24 hours before crossing the border should be mandatory. What was my point, counties that did the lockdown right have this option(s) and from next week our economy will open basically even the last businesses. But if things get worse again they will call off the whole thing, that was openly said. Health is our priority, everything else is "bonus".

 

[Virtual ghost]

The more people that see this nonworking behemoth capitalism for what it is and who it benefits, will only convince more people that there are other economic methods to consider.

Those of us outside already know that and that there are alternatives and various "sub-types". Since we live in them, for better or for worse. The closest we have to a classic pro-business party has something like 2% of the vote.

 

[Vendrah]

Whatever floats your confirmation bias.

My confirmation bias?
The US is having the biggest numbers on Corona, that's a fact.
The US is a first world country with several positive indexes, that's a fact either.
The poor management/handle comes from a simple deduction from these two statements.

There is no confirmation bias. This is just simple deductive reasoning. It should be something obvious at this point.

 

[anticlimatic]

Look how angry they get when you rattle their shit opinions.

I always love how you speak for yourself while pretending to speak for others.

 

[Virtual ghost]

My confirmation bias?
The US is having the biggest numbers on Corona, that's a fact.
The US is a first world country with several positive indexes, that's a fact either.
The poor management/handle comes from a simple deduction from these two statements.

There is no confirmation bias. This is just simple deductive reasoning. It should be something obvious at this point.

Well, in USA everyone is an individual and formally every opinion has equal worth. Since opinions are sacred and everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. The only problem is that this isn't always practical, especially in the "medical emergency".

 

[Vendrah]

Sweden got it right. Sure it has higher deaths than neighboring nations, but it won't be affected by the 2nd wave or the deaths due to the lock-down (from suicide and drug use). People who love the lock-down avoid talking about the deaths from economic hardship. If we had used the $2 to $3 trillion to protect nursing homes and the vulnerable, that would've been a better strategy than the idiocy pushed by public health officials, so kudos to Sweden.

Deaths of economic hardship that should happen because of people not being able to save money because the previous system was manipulating then to consume whatever they can (with marketing basically being a soft science in how to manipulate people to buy things they dont need instead of saving) plus high income inequality that prevents even the most "financially disciplined" ones from saving money if they are in that condition, plus the people doing campaigns to sabotage the "institution" that were supposed to at least try to fix this (the state providing income to people and basically doing the saves for those who cant by these reasons). This is a basic resume of a thing that was said many pages ago here.

Well, I have to admit that the "brainwashing" world-wide is great, very few people are talking about this and those who are talking are the ones that were already talking about it in the past. However, nothing removes that fact, and it pretty doesnt matter if you bring the best evil advocates to me, that these deaths, bring by either a economy opening or a economic hardship from a lock-down, are caused by inequality, marketing manipulating people to consume, which both compromised and prevent people from doing the savings that were crucial in points like this. And that combined with people sabotaging the government that at least is trying to fix this with universal income.

 

[anticlimatic]

My confirmation bias? The US is having the biggest numbers on Corona, that's a fact. The US is a first world country with several positive indexes, that's a fact either. The poor management/handle comes from a simple deduction from these two statements. There is no confirmation bias. This is just simple deductive reasoning. It should be something obvious at this point.

It confirms your bias that the US is doing poorly in regards to the pandemic, despite the fact that the more cases we have without overwhelming the healthcare system, the faster we will achieve herd immunity and reopen. I'm glad we have a decent head start without overloading our system, and I feel bad for areas who will ruin their already ruined economies by dragging this out longer than necessary.

 

[Vendrah]

Well, in USA everyone is an individual and formally every opinion has equal worth. Since opinions are sacred and everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. The only problem is that this isn't always practical, especially in the "medical emergency".

I think the major problem is what is behind some of these opinions and how they are formed.

 

[Vendrah]

It confirms your bias that the US is doing poorly in regards to the pandemic, despite the fact that the more cases we have without overwhelming the healthcare system, the faster we will achieve herd immunity and reopen. I'm glad we have a decent head start without overloading our system, and I feel bad for areas who will ruin their already ruined economies by dragging this out longer than necessary.

Do you think that the numbers of US are biased then?
Perhaps you disagree with the statistics, there are less Corona cases and deaths, specially, than reported.
Or perhaps you disagree with the statistics that states the high structure that the US have. Specially on GDP department - GDP per capita says that the US is one of the highest countrys in the world in economy and yet it is supposed to be full of areas with "ruined" economies, and perhaps with that I can take that you disagree with the US GDP per capita, you think these numbers are inflated, then? They are biased?
Or perhaps you disagree with a simple deductive reasoning that I have to explain for the 3rd time:
- The US have one of the best economies and structure from the nations over the world.
- The US is having one of the highest death numbers of the world.
- Then, the US is not managing the Corona crisis well (because they have the best structure and one of the highest deaths number in US).

These are basically where you need to specifically disagree.

Except that there is still another possibility.
You just want people to die for the sake of economy and you dont want to admit it.

 

[anticlimatic]

You just want people to die for the sake of economy and you dont want to admit it.

And this is where our conversation ends, as it is too absurd to continue.

 

[Coriolis]

My confirmation bias?
The US is having the biggest numbers on Corona, that's a fact.

The US is also a relatively large country. For a meaningful comparison with nations of other sizes, it is necessary to consider those numbers as a fraction of total population.

Well, in USA everyone is an individual and formally every opinion has equal worth. Since opinions are sacred and everyone has the right to believe whatever they want. The only problem is that this isn't always practical, especially in the "medical emergency".

No. In the US, everyone has the same right to form and state an opinion. That does not give the opinions themselves equal worth. Our tradition of independence means we have the right to be wrong - individually - but not to harm another through our own error or ignorance.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I would say I understand it, but I don't really agree with the premise.
The very fact that you are talking about "governmental power and control" means that you don't fully get my point. In general I have all of that what I named in that list and jet I don't really feel controlled by my government. Nowhere even close next to your level of concern about the issue. What is because there is catch in the equation. In my book when you put this much weight on the "individual freedoms" you automatically distort the idea of democratic government as well. In other words people who will make that government will be the people who are still clear individualists and they were risen by their environment to be that way. What in the end leads to the government officials that are likely to treat government as personal property or something made for their personal gain. Because their whole mindset is about competing basically until the day they die. What altogether in the end means that the government can't be trusted and will not create agreements and conclusions that are vital for good governing. However this is mostly because of people that are slaves to the "dog eats dog" worldview and as such they aren't ready for what the government is fundamentally about, making sure that people make it. Everything else is more of a "regime" even if you limit the terms to 4 years. This will be especially the case since "dog eats dog" people will be more likely to push through the people to get to the position in the government at any cost. Where they will pile up their mindset.



What I noticed in your posts and posts of others here is that you presume that the government is working against you. While I simply claim that this isn't something that is set is stone and that there are radically different types of government out there. However since this is corona thread I will dare to be more specific. From worldometer that I linked a number of times thus far your country for today has 15700 new cases and 1300 deaths, what will grow even further by the end of the day. While mine that uploads once a day has 6 new cases and one death today, even if we both started with patient 0 on our soil in relatively similar time. But the difference is that my big but relatively friendly government generally works for me while yours relatively small one in powers does not work for you. However the key difference is that mine isn't full of "dog eats dog people" that are inevitable product of very strong individualism. Therefore I dare to challenge your "worldview" since I find it masochistic in a certain sense. Personally I like idea of taxes and paying them, for me taxes are fundamentally just another form of investment and insurance. What in US is pure heresy. Therefore all what I am trying to say is that there are "alternative methods" of doing this and doing it well.

This is really well said.

While what you describe here does seem specific to the U.S., I want to point out that it actually looks just as paranoid/distorted in thought to at least half of us here too. It's a rural thing to see the government as such a boogeyman and exaggerated impediment to freedom (instead of something capable of providing protection that actually grants freedom), and it's stunning to listen to rants about it. Most of the people I know though are in awe of these protests: only in the U.S. will people actually protest for the right to work to death, often for barely a living wage, and that ....feels like freedom? And they're carrying guns to do it, because that helps it feel like freedom? Or something?

My only point is, there's a whole other half of this country that's as mystified by it as you are. (And unfortunately, because electoral college distributes power unequally, votes influenced by that seemingly bizarre paranoia actually weigh disproportionately more - the frustration about which is systematically compounded by the additional unfair advantage of gerrymandering and voter suppression ...anyway).

 

[Virtual ghost]

The US is also a relatively large country. For a meaningful comparison with nations of other sizes, it is necessary to consider those numbers as a fraction of total population.

I don't agree with this approach.
Because in all countries the pandemic started with patient(s) zero on their soil. What means that in this regard population size doesn't mean as much as what you actually did in countering the pandemic. Population is really interesting in the terms of population density since that has direct effect. While population size basically only indicates how long it will take for everyone to get infected if nothing is done. My country is indeed much smaller than US but it can have the same scale of disaster as US currently. The only difference is that here that would mean 1/3 of population infected at one point. What would be complete chaos and probably the end of my country in it's current form. Population size only means that you are more resistant to disaster by having a bigger "bowl" but it says very little about the quality of response. What is the topic here, the quality of response.



Worldometer

However US has so many cases and deaths that even if you count both per capita it is still one of the worst hit countries in the world despite it's size. What basically means that the response is badly executed.

No. In the US, everyone has the same right to form and state an opinion. That does not give the opinions themselves equal worth. Our tradition of independence means we have the right to be wrong - individually - but not to harm another through our own error or ignorance.

Ideally yes, but I have the impression that in practice this isn't playing that nice. My country has this as well in a certain way but here you don't have the right to be so endlessly stubborn about when it is totally proven you are wrong. Here this is heavily in the domain of basic respect among people.

 

[anticlimatic]

This is really well said. While what you describe here does seem specific to the U.S., I want to point out that it actually looks just as paranoid/distorted in thought to at least half of us here too. It's a rural thing to see the government as such a boogeyman and exaggerated impediment to freedom (instead of something capable of providing protection that actually grants freedom), and it's stunning to listen to rants about it. Most of the people I know though are in awe of these protests: only in the U.S. will people actually protest for the right to work to death, often for barely a living wage, and that ....feels like freedom? And they're carrying guns to do it, because that helps it feel like freedom? Or something? My only point is, there's a whole other half of this country that's as mystified by it as you are. (And unfortunately, because electoral college distributes power unequally, votes influenced by that seemingly bizarre paranoia actually weigh disproportionately more - the frustration about which is systematically compounded by the additional unfair advantage of gerrymandering and voter suppression ...anyway).

[MENTION=4347]Virtual ghost[/MENTION] Like I said, the advice you are offering is already part of our internal debate. Since the US is split, parts of it will be addressing Covid19 differently, but since Covid is Covid, nothing less than full cooperation from everyone will allow us to tactically succeed the way your country tactically succeeded. The end result is that the infection WILL spread across the US faster than it would if we employed your country's strategy.

There is no other outcome possibility. Any effort towards a different possibility is wasted. That was ultimately my point. There is sound logic both ways, and both ways have high price tags. I think it would be good for people to better understand the pros and cons of both approaches, rather than devolve into the usual juvenile partisan antics. Especially the reopening path, since that is the one we are on.

 

[Jaguar]

You're not directly no, but I am just trying to express the consequences of that type of thinking, which to me looks like you are not even thinking about. I don't understand why it becomes a "you're with us, or against us" senario each time. People should respect the lockdown out of duty, but it shouldn't also be punishable by law to rebel against it. People have the right to die by their own stupidity. Besides, getting outside is important to not get sick as well. Being cooped up in winter is exactly how the flu spreads to begin with, not the weather. Corona is no different. People should be allowed to go places, and still also be able to abide by the 6 foot rule.

My state just got off lockdown, and Miami county just experienced its first day of no new cases or deaths. Everyone is still wearing masks.

The 6-foot rule has already been proven worthless if someone coughs in a room without a mask on. I have a business card in my pocket and on the back I wrote, "Put on a mask, asshole." I've only had to hold it up once in public and I hope it stays that way. I hate wearing a mask, it fucks with my breathing. But I was wearing a mask even before my Governor made it mandatory. It's common sense, given the virulence of COVID. And, no, it is not like the flu. The flu doesn't have the ability to create micro blood clots in the lungs to the point where you're walking around fine and a half hour later you hit the floor dead, because it blocked the oxygen to the brain. It's been described as what one would expect to see with altitude sickness since your oxygen saturation in your blood can plummet quickly. That's why people in their 20's and 30's can have strokes no differently than someone in the 50's or 60's and beyond.

My mask protects you, and your mask protects me. If someone chooses not to wear a mask, they are saying "fuck you and die" to everyone around them. People have rights, but they don't have a right to harm me or anyone else by being a reckless fucker. And like they did when HIV came calling, I predict people will eventually start suing each other for COVID infections, or at least try. The mayor of Atlanta was horrified when she recently saw people walking in and out of stores at close range without masks on. Is that freedom? I think not. I call it stupidity.

In my city, you can't get into a grocery store without a mask and there is a line down the sidewalk to get into Whole Foods since they are allowing only a certain number of people into the store at a time. Do I agree with that level of restriction? Hell, yes. There is nothing more absurd than seeing a party caught on video with a room of packed kids and one says, "Well, if I didn't have COVID coming in, I will definitely have it when I leave." Idiocy.

I can go out for a walk in my neighborhood whenever I want or go for a drive. I told you about a month ago, there is no going back to normal. There will be a new normal and you're going to have to find a way to deal with it. We all have to.

 

[Vendrah]

And this is where our conversation ends, as it is too absurd to continue.

I think the absurd is more on your side, really. And thats what Im trying to bring on the table here.
Im not as much gentle as Virtual Ghost for the moment, not really.

But, just for doing a small revision here, your "politic" and suggestion in this issue is to re-open stuff and let some people die so people will hopefully get immunity.

despite the fact that the more cases we have without overwhelming the healthcare system, the faster we will achieve herd immunity and reopen.

I already got it.
Your standards of judgment see a peak of corona cases as positive, because the more people get sick, the faster "herd immunity" is achieved.
If people die or lots of people die, thats just a side effect.
Thats why you dont see the US data on Corona as bad, but instead see it as a positive. More infected = more "antibodies", and if more people die, patience. They would die because of the economy anyway (and it is exactly that economy system that you are defending).

So, yeah, I can say that I finish what I had to say in "this conversation".

The US is also a relatively large country. For a meaningful comparison with nations of other sizes, it is necessary to consider those numbers as a fraction of total population.

True, in numbers that ignore that US is #1 in Corona (in truth I think there are some few countries hiding numbers that could pass the US), but in terms of deaths per million or cases per million the US is not doing well, its still doing bad.

No. In the US, everyone has the same right to form and state an opinion. That does not give the opinions themselves equal worth. Our tradition of independence means we have the right to be wrong - individually - but not to harm another through our own error or ignorance.

Well said.