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Trump's Got The Pleurisy

Lark

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I'm sorry but there are already socialist policies that have been part of the federal government framework for a long time. Most people aren't really aware how much is socialized but it's not a question of "you believe in that shit?" It's been part of the federal government all of your life.

Yeah, for the sake of accuracy it'd be a good idea not to describe them as "socialist" policies, in the UK they dont even describe what Americans call "socialized" as that, its called "nationalization" or "nationalized" and its known that those policies predate any election of any socialistic party, either explicitly or implicitly, and have even been tools used by anti-socialist parties.

I've always found it interesting as "socialized" in the UK usually refers to an idea in sociology about the acquisition of social norms, mores, conventions or values like folk ways or taboos. So you have primary socialization which is parenting, family/household culture, neighbourhood (maybe) and secondary socialization which is schooling, employment, media, news and pop culture.

Nationalization means the complete, or part, ownership of assets, firms, services, business by government, sometimes the state will maintain a commanding share as a shareholder. Which nearly makes sense when its an enterprise that could otherwise be heavily subsidized with tax money and with the boardroom open to "moral hazard" or "rent seeking" behaviour (remember a business, in theory, does not need to succeed at anything at all other than making a return to its shareholders, even if the "revenue" or "profit" is securing subsidy or "efficiencies" such as laying off workers or cutting their pensions and conditions of employment).

To be honest when businesses go bankrupt and are taken "into receivership" prior to auction it is a form of temporary nationalization/socialization even.

Its all just propaganda and it bothers me that its gotten to such a point, its impossible to even discuss these topics because everyone is already primed with all sorts of misinformation already.
 

ceecee

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Yeah, for the sake of accuracy it'd be a good idea not to describe them as "socialist" policies, in the UK they dont even describe what Americans call "socialized" as that, its called "nationalization" or "nationalized" and its known that those policies predate any election of any socialistic party, either explicitly or implicitly, and have even been tools used by anti-socialist parties.

I've always found it interesting as "socialized" in the UK usually refers to an idea in sociology about the acquisition of social norms, mores, conventions or values like folk ways or taboos. So you have primary socialization which is parenting, family/household culture, neighbourhood (maybe) and secondary socialization which is schooling, employment, media, news and pop culture.

Nationalization means the complete, or part, ownership of assets, firms, services, business by government, sometimes the state will maintain a commanding share as a shareholder. Which nearly makes sense when its an enterprise that could otherwise be heavily subsidized with tax money and with the boardroom open to "moral hazard" or "rent seeking" behaviour (remember a business, in theory, does not need to succeed at anything at all other than making a return to its shareholders, even if the "revenue" or "profit" is securing subsidy or "efficiencies" such as laying off workers or cutting their pensions and conditions of employment).

To be honest when businesses go bankrupt and are taken "into receivership" prior to auction it is a form of temporary nationalization/socialization even.

Its all just propaganda and it bothers me that its gotten to such a point, its impossible to even discuss these topics because everyone is already primed with all sorts of misinformation already.

I'm pretty convinced it's only the word "socialism" too. But I used it because it's a buzzword for the right, not because it's really accurate.

Nationalizing key industries, such as health care, happens all over the world. And the US already has nationalized health care, they have for 54 years.
 

anticlimatic

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For the love of God please stop trolling these threads and start actually having real conversations with people on the forum before you work yourself up into an aneurysm.

I wasn't trolling, I was being serious, for your benefit. If there was any semblance of objective unbiased reason in the politics and current events subforum in this community there would be discussion of politics and current events, instead of these weird conspiracy theories that smell more like Q-Anon than anything grounded in reality.

How many "martyrs" are you aware of that died of disease? That's just not how martyrdom works. This booygman image that you've all been brainwashed to believe that Trump supporters are these hateful deplorable bigots is a product of years of subtle media brainwashing- easily remedied by actually speaking with and listening to them. Not on the internet. Not at protests. In real world interactions- like work, volunteer projects, past times (like sports), etc. It's OK to let yourself experience "wrong-think" if it interests you, especially if it might be what you really think. You don't have to keep holding on to these toxic ways of viewing the country, the world, yourself, and your neighbors. You can be exactly who you want to be. You don't owe anyone, or any society, any degree of penance or duty, just because you feel like they would judge you if you did. Take it from me- I'm no stranger to being judged- it's worth it.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I wasn't trolling, I was being serious, for your benefit. If there was any semblance of objective unbiased reason in the politics and current events subforum in this community there would be discussion of politics and current events, instead of these weird conspiracy theories that smell more like Q-Anon than anything grounded in reality.

How many "martyrs" are you aware of that died of disease? That's just not how martyrdom works. This booygman image that you've all been brainwashed to believe that Trump supporters are these hateful deplorable bigots is a product of years of subtle media brainwashing- easily remedied by actually speaking with and listening to them. Not on the internet. Not at protests. In real world interactions- like work, volunteer projects, past times (like sports), etc. It's OK to let yourself experience "wrong-think" if it interests you, especially if it might be what you really think. You don't have to keep holding on to these toxic ways of viewing the country, the world, yourself, and your neighbors. You can be exactly who you want to be. You don't owe anyone, or any society, any degree of penance or duty, just because you feel like they would judge you if you did. Take it from me- I'm no stranger to being judged- it's worth it.
There is an issue with Trump and his supporters using hateful and bigoted words that are documented. What does that say about them as individuals in day-to-day life?

One notion that can get lost is the fact that people who think terrible things, people who commit atrocities spend most of their life sleeping in their jammies, drinking coffee in the morning, smiling at their family, hugging acquaintances, reading news, telling jokes, washing the dishes, enjoying a sunset. just sitting around living life.

The majority of the time most people just live their lives as basic humans in the world, but the problem is when their minds accept notions that enable them to accept harm being done to others, when they admire violence, make statements dehumanizing people because of their race, dismiss suffering experienced by others. Even if the individual does not spend most of their time committing violence, if they condone or commit it at all, they are a 'bad' person.

Accepting and reiterating some of the words and ideas spoken by Trump and his supporters does make someone morally wrong, even if the majority of their time is spent in neutral activities we all share. Perhaps a person's morality is measured not by the good they do or say, but the cruelty they don't do or say.
 

anticlimatic

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And what would a Trumplican like you have to teach either current or former lifelong Republicans like myself and highlander? Wake the fuck up, man. That you keep pretending you're some expert conservative when you're merely a self-described "I vote for the person with the big ideas" goofball, makes me laugh every day. Trump is not a conservative. Hell, even real deal conservatives agree on that so what is your excuse for the endless ignorance? You keep pretending to be something you are not, and I already asked you long ago if you were a lifelong Republican. You are not. So drop the act.

I'm a mixture of liberal and conservative values, which should be plain to see for anyone whose read any of my posts. Just like it's plain to see that you're a deeply entrenched dogmatic leftist. If you were a Republican during the Bush administration, you were a republican when they were trying to get Creationism taught in schools. Now you're with the people who advocate for Leftist Religion to be taught in schools via Critical Race theory, so it doesn't look like you really changed much. ;)

You make me laugh too. What exactly should I be waking up to, in your opinion?
 

Z Buck McFate

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Yeah, for the sake of accuracy it'd be a good idea not to describe them as "socialist" policies, in the UK they dont even describe what Americans call "socialized" as that, its called "nationalization" or "nationalized" and its known that those policies predate any election of any socialistic party, either explicitly or implicitly, and have even been tools used by anti-socialist parties.

[...]

Its all just propaganda and it bothers me that its gotten to such a point, its impossible to even discuss these topics because everyone is already primed with all sorts of misinformation already.

One reason it would be so counterproductive to use another word is that Bernie, AOC, et al use it. And though it is already counterproductive for them to use it, it would just complicate things to try to throw another word in play for something that's already got a word.

But yeah. One of my favorite things this year was to see Trumpublicans go on "I guess the left won't be accepting the stimulus checks since they're from Trump, right?" tangents. Basically: Trumpublicans embracing socialist perks they're getting from Democrats' efforts whilst attributing it to Trump and histrionically fear-mongering about spooky spooky "socialism", and mocking the left for accepting the checks. :krusty:
 
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ceecee

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One reason it would be so counterproductive to use another word is that Bernie, AOC, et al use it. And though it is already counterproductive for them to use it, it would just complicate things to try to throw another word in play for something that's already got a word.

But yeah. One if my favorite things this year was to see Trumpublicans go on "I guess the left won't be accepting the stimulus checks since they're from Trump, right?" Basically: Trumpublicans embracing socialist perks they're getting from Democrats' efforts whilst attributing it to Trump and histrionically fear-mongering about spooky spooky "socialism", and mocking the left for accepting the checks. :krusty:

I don't see the right wing, fair market, Laissez-faire economy fanboys railing against corporate socialism, military and military industrial complex socialism, a completely socialized stock market and banking foundation and so on. But to call a person out for using the word socialism, I just lol. It's a very special kind of amnesia/blinders these people possess.

The right/conservatives have their hands out plenty. I didn't get a stimulus check, I make too much money. I'm completely ok with it going to people that actually need it.

This is a Ben Garrison spoof (but have a look at the actual Ben Garrison drawings to understand Trump supporters and masculinity) and it's awesome.

That's a shocking unit on Marx. Because you can't be a real man unless your dick runs down your leg, right?

Ei1o0ZiWsAInde3


The comments from conservatives and the right on this cartoon were predictable. They don't grasp satire and that's why there aren't any funny conservatives.
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I don't mean for this to spiral into an off-topic, but I was going to make a post about Trump that I abandoned because I feel too sick now. I googled the rape allegations and found the court documents where he was accused jointly with Epstein for rapes in the 1990's. I don't feel well. Have to go on a walk. This isn't partisan, but it is about Trump.
 

anticlimatic

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There is an issue with Trump and his supporters using hateful and bigoted words that are documented. What does that say about them as individuals in day-to-day life?

One notion that can get lost is the fact that people who think terrible things, people who commit atrocities spend most of their life sleeping in their jammies, drinking coffee in the morning, smiling at their family, hugging acquaintances, reading news, telling jokes, washing the dishes, enjoying a sunset. just sitting around living life.

The majority of the time most people just live their lives as basic humans in the world, but the problem is when their minds accept notions that enable them to accept harm being done to others, when they admire violence, make statements dehumanizing people because of their race, dismiss suffering experienced by others. Even if the individual does not spend most of their time committing violence, if they condone or commit it at all, they are a 'bad' person.

Accepting and reiterating some of the words and ideas spoken by Trump and his supporters does make someone morally wrong, even if the majority of their time is spent in neutral activities we all share. Perhaps a person's morality is measured not by the good they do or say, but the cruelty they don't do or say.

I appreciate the degree of reason you're employing here, even if it's predicated on what I consider to be warped ideology. It means you have a chance of breaking out of the self-imposed hell you've been manipulated into.

To the parts that I bolded, in order:

Do you think it's reasonable to lump a small number of toxic trump supporters in with the rest of them, the way someone might lump protestors and rioters together?
Do you think it's reasonable to make thought-crime a thing?
Do you think that moral righteousness, throughout history, has universally been a force for good? Do you think it's been a force for good in America so far? Are things going in the right direction, you think?

The first bit of brainwashing that your reasoned argument is predicated on is the idea that thoughts are words, and words are violence. Occasionally things that seem absurd on their face, once you delve a bit deeper, end up proving themselves as legitimate. Is there any such proof of this in regards to the idea that thoughts = violence, beyond faith-based speculation? In this case, "delving deeper" is just a long winded exercise in justifying the obviously unjustifiable.

The next bit of brainwashing is this other "ridiculous on its face" idea that everybody is inherently racist, including you (who probably is not, at all), which generates understandable cognitive dissonance, and may lead someone to put into doubt their own moral compass- leading to these ideas that you can never trust yourself, or anyone, even if they appear to be normal and good people "hanging out in their jammies." Is this really how you want to view yourself, and your neighbors? With zero trust in any direction?

People are people. They are the same whether they are leftists, or rightists. There is no "bad" group and there is no "good" group with which to belong. There are only people, acting in good or bad ways, based on how they were raised and a million other things. Any efforts to divide and encamp people should be met with heavy scrutiny, and thoroughly searched for ulterior motives.
 

Z Buck McFate

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(but have a look at the actual Ben Garrison drawings to understand Trump supporters and masculinity)

Ugh.

This isn't partisan, but it is about Trump.

Probably 80% of my disgust with him has little or nothing to do with partisanship, and everything to do with the fact he's a hateful, psychopathic con man. He's absolutely unworthy of respect.
 

EcK

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Oh nice. I was wondering where all the unbalanced people had gone. I love the whole 2/3rd of post being “i am such a good person and i dont wish someone i dont like dead just because i dont like him BUT *input actual thoughts of wanting ppl dead just because u personally don’t like them*. Slow clap people, slow clap.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Oh nice. I was wondering where all the unbalanced people had all gone. I love the whole 2/3rd of post being “i am such a good person and i dont wish someone i dont like dead just because i dont like him BUT *input actual thoughts of wanting ppl dead just because u disagree with them*. Slow clap people, slow clap.

It's clear you definitely put in the effort to understand what you're talking about before commenting.
 

EcK

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It's clear you definitely put in the effort to understand what you're talking about before commenting.

Yeah. It’s clear you have a clue about the dark underbelly of human nature, especially some of the people here pretending to be in any way above the moral development of a sociopathic child. But do carry on.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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This post is actually a heart breaking work of genius :happy2:

I mean, I feel a sliver of shame. I have never found myself wishing harm on a president, and I lived through the Bush years.

But I think z buck summed up why I feel frustrated with the sudden demands for compassion from the right.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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I'm a mixture of liberal and conservative values, which should be plain to see for anyone whose read any of my posts. Just like it's plain to see that you're a deeply entrenched dogmatic leftist. If you were a Republican during the Bush administration, you were a republican when they were trying to get Creationism taught in schools. Now you're with the people who advocate for Leftist Religion to be taught in schools via Critical Race theory, so it doesn't look like you really changed much. ;)

You make me laugh too. What exactly should I be waking up to, in your opinion?

Yes, I find it difficult to take former Republicans seriously. Just looking back at some of the past draconian measures past elected republicans had supported or endorsed....makes me wonder why some of these republican voters turned a cheek then but suddenly want to pretend to be best buds with the identitarian left. It reeks of a desperate move to rewrite their own histories. They know the Trump ship is sinking, so they’re scattering like rats, and the closest floating, dry thing to swim to is the ship of neoliberalism.
 

Lark

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One reason it would be so counterproductive to use another word is that Bernie, AOC, et al use it. And though it is already counterproductive for them to use it, it would just complicate things to try to throw another word in play for something that's already got a word.

But yeah. One if my favorite things this year was to see Trumpublicans go on "I guess the left won't be accepting the stimulus checks since they're from Trump, right?" Basically: Trumpublicans embracing socialist perks they're getting from Democrats' efforts whilst attributing it to Trump and histrionically fear-mongering about spooky spooky "socialism", and mocking the left for accepting the checks. :krusty:

Its like the old AK press poster/t-shirt which had a bomber dropping bombs on some 3rd world country and it said "Its not fascism when we do it".

I do take your point but short hand of this kind is something I hate.

Like I hate it when in the UK they talk about things being "free" or paid for by the "state" or "government", they arent "free", nothing is, and the state and government dont pay for anything, its paid for by the tax payer or public spending but its all part of the same mis-speaking.
 

Lark

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Ugh.



Probably 80% of my disgust with him has little or nothing to do with partisanship, and everything to do with the fact he's a hateful, psychopathic con man. He's absolutely unworthy of respect.

I'd agree with that.

I also dont understand the amount of licence the so called GOP and conservatives in the US permit him when they were so vociferous about seeing Bill Clinton removed from office, largely because of his personal life/misconduct.
 

Lark

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Oh nice. I was wondering where all the unbalanced people had gone. I love the whole 2/3rd of post being “i am such a good person and i dont wish someone i dont like dead just because i dont like him BUT *input actual thoughts of wanting ppl dead just because u personally don’t like them*. Slow clap people, slow clap.

I'll be honest with you, I dont see what's unbalanced about not being worried too much about evil things happening to people who are evil in their words and deeds.

- - - Updated - - -

Yeah. It’s clear you have a clue about the dark underbelly of human nature, especially some of the people here pretending to be in any way above the moral development of a sociopathic child. But do carry on.

Interested to hear more from you.

You seem... upset.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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. This booygman image that you've all been brainwashed to believe that Trump supporters are these hateful deplorable bigots is a product of years of subtle media brainwashing- easily remedied by actually speaking with and listening to them.

Dude, most of us have Trump supporters in our families. I do for sure. Your assertion that they don't really "know" Trump supporters is incorrect. My cousin supports Trump and he's a college dropout with no job and no prospects who has been living with his parents for the past 10 years. He got deep in the Alex Jones shit and I suspect that was his pipeline.

I haven't seen him in a while, so I don't know if he is still a Trump supporter this time around.
 
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