Trump vs. Bernie

[Earl Grey]

Do they pay you enough at your job? I don't understand why anyone doing OK in life financially would want to vote someone in whose entire platform is wealth redistribution. Help me out here.

I don't understand why anyone doing more than OK financially would let their assets more than gather dust for generations while ignoring their potential to contribute to their country, even if small.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Do they pay you enough at your job? I don't understand why anyone doing OK in life financially would want to vote someone in whose entire platform is wealth redistribution. Help me out here.

Yes but I have reasons beyond my own pay and how his election can benefit me.

Healthcare is a big one too. Obamacare was a shitty bandaid over an already fucked system. One major health crisis could ruin my family, regardless of how well I am currently paid. Yes, I have insurance, but it's very shitty insurance with a high deductible and the provider has been known to deny a lot of claims from co-workers at my company. Personally, I'd prefer USA move to a French healthcare model, but I'd settle for a Scandinavian model like Bernie wants to implement.

Most of the complaints people lodge against universal healthcare are just as applicable to our current system in the USA. For instance, people talk about waiting lists, but you already have to wait for a lot of operations and procedures, particularly for non-life threatening conditions. I'd rather wait and know my procedure is covered than wait and find out my insurance provider has decided not to cover a procedure for any number of reasons.

 

[anticlimatic]

Yes but I have reasons beyond my own pay and how his election can benefit me. Healthcare is a big one too. Obamacare was a shitty bandaid over an already fucked system. One major health crisis could ruin my family, regardless of how well I am currently paid. Yes, I have insurance, but it's very shitty insurance with a high deductible and the provider has been known to deny a lot of claims from co-workers at my company. Personally, I'd prefer USA move to a French healthcare model, but I'd settle for a Scandinavian model like Bernie wants to implement. Most of the complaints people lodge against universal healthcare are just as applicable to our current system in the USA. For instance, people talk about waiting lists, but you already have to wait for a lot of operations and procedures, particularly for non-life threatening conditions. I'd rather wait and know my procedure is covered than wait and find out my insurance provider has decided not to cover a procedure for any number of reasons.

Ok, ok, fair enough. You want your family to be safe. But if you're making enough money, why not get better insurance? I have a three man business with my two brothers and we take the best insurance we can find through the buisness, so you can understand why I'd personally have little interest in a Bernie overhaul.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Ok, ok, fair enough. You want your family to be safe. But if you're making enough money, why not get better insurance? I have a three man business with my two brothers and we take the best insurance we can find through the buisness, so you can understand why I'd personally have little interest in a Bernie overhaul.

I take the plan my work offers because it's what I can afford.

 

[anticlimatic]

I take the plan my work offers because it's what I can afford.

Could you start your own business with your career skills, or is it a big companies only kind of field?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Could you start your own business with your career skills, or is it a big companies only kind of field?

Theoretically I could but they're better suited for a large company.

 

[anticlimatic]

Theoretically I could but they're better suited for a large company.

Damn. I feel like the only point of working for a big company is using it as a stepping stone to eventually own your own means of production- because that's where the real money is. Basically adds another figure to your yearly salary for doing just a little more of the same work.

 

[ceecee]

Theoretically I could but they're better suited for a large company.

Isn't the goal of everyone to start a business? Because there's no other way to own the means of production.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Isn't the goal of everyone to start a business? Because there's no other way to own the means of production.

I know you were being sarcastic to make a point to anti, but I'll just leave this here.

More U.S. businesses are becoming worker co-ops: Here’s why

Worker cooperative - Wikipedia

Ideally I would like to see this as a medium between the extremes of communist state ownership of business and our current economic model. I hope more people looking to sell their businesses will begin to look into selling directly to their workers. It's not feasible for everyone to own their own business but worker-owned cooperatives are a great way for everyone else to both get a piece of the pie and have more bargaining power. It's also a nice alternative to those pesky unions republicans so despise. I really don't see a need for unions in companies where the workers already have a huge say in the company's direction and financials.

According to the Democracy at Work Institute (DAWI), a nonprofit that supports the development of worker co-ops, employee-owned small businesses see an average of 4% to 5% higher productivity levels and more stability and potential for growth. In contrast to traditional businesses, worker co-ops see much lower rates of employee turnover and business closure. They’re also known to boost both profits and worker wages.

 

[ceecee]

I know you were being sarcastic to make a point to anti, but I'll just leave this here.

More U.S. businesses are becoming worker co-ops: Here’s why

Worker cooperative - Wikipedia

Ideally I would like to see this as a medium between the extremes of communist state ownership of business and our current economic model. I hope more people looking to sell their businesses will begin to look into selling directly to their workers.

I'm not interested in state ownership. But it's encouraging that another option is being considered in the US and one they've used successfully in other countries.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I'm not interested in state ownership. But it's encouraging that another option is being considered in the US and one they've used successfully in other countries.

I know. It was more directed at people who only see a binary option between communism and private ownership.

I see worker owned business as the best of both worlds. I like that it actually makes workers active players in capitalism. I think the biggest problem with capitalism (and communism, for that matter) is that the "little people" tend to feel like pawns or players with no real say in the game, which contributes to a stagnant economy where most people will do the bare minimum and only operate in their own best interests.

 

[anticlimatic]

I know you were being sarcastic to make a point to anti, but I'll just leave this here. More U.S. businesses are becoming worker co-ops: Here's why Worker cooperative - Wikipedia Ideally I would like to see this as a medium between the extremes of communist state ownership of business and our current economic model. I hope more people looking to sell their businesses will begin to look into selling directly to their workers. It's not feasible for everyone to own their own business but worker-owned cooperatives are a great way for everyone else to both get a piece of the pie and have more bargaining power. It's also a nice alternative to those pesky unions republicans so despise. I really don't see a need for unions in companies where the workers already have a huge say in the company's direction and financials.

Meh. Do you want to OWN your own means of production, or share it with a bunch of other idiots? Aside from incentive to keep the business healthy and a bigger Christmas bonus I don't see much money coming out of that. Do you want to be able to make the decisions or have to vote on everything? Barf.

I think it's feasible for anyone to own their own business. Just have to pick one that works for your skill set and decide how big you want it. One man? Two man? Twenty man?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Meh. Do you want to OWN your own means of production, or share it with a bunch of other idiots? Aside from incentive to keep the business healthy and a bigger Christmas bonus I don't see much money coming out of that. Do you want to be able to make the decisions or have to vote on everything? Barf.

I think it's feasible for anyone to own their own business. Just have to pick one that works for your skill set and decide how big you want it. One man? Two man? Twenty man?

Not everyone wants to or is capable of owning their very own business. For some, they may just not want to put in the time and long hours. For others, maybe they lack the intelligence or the means to start their own. Not to mention the risk involved, which some people understandably don't want to take. Were I single or with no kids, yes, I might be trying to start a business, as the consequences of failure would mostly affect me rather than my entire family. Also, I'm kind of lazy and enjoy that I can come home and not have to bring my work with me. I don't want my job to be a 24-7 job, which is basically what one can expect starting their own business, at least in the first few years. I want to come home and play legos with my kid or murder people in a fictional online video game. I just happen to want a greater say and stake in the company I work at. I guess that makes me lazy or a loser, whatever.

For those who don't want to or are unable to own their own businesses, given the choice between having little or zero say in a company's direction versus a vote in the matter, I think the latter is a far more desirable and beneficial scenario. If your business crashed and you had to temporarily go work for a company, which type would you prefer to work for?

As much as I like the Jeffersonian idea of a nation of small business owners, it's increasingly unrealistic for everyone to just up and start their own. Worker owned business is a good alternative for those who can't start their own. They can remain active players in capitalism rather than just voiceless cogs in the machine.

 

[Jaguar]

Do you want to be able to make the decisions or have to vote on everything?

Make the decisions.

 

[Maou]

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

[MENTION=195]Jaguar[/MENTION] probably finds that funny.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Do they pay you enough at your job? I don't understand why anyone doing OK in life financially would want to vote someone in whose entire platform is wealth redistribution. Help me out here.

This sounds like survival of the fittest/Social Darwinism thinking. Like, "I don't understand why anyone among 'the fittest' would begin to give a shit about people who are less fortunate."

I mean, you do realize that Bernie's brand of wealth distribution isn't about preventing people from becoming rich, right? It's about the mega-rich who use their wealth to generate more wealth, who don't pay their fair share (who don't pay those whose labor exponentially increases their wealth a living wage - let alone a fair wage - and who use their wealth to influence government to make sure they don't even pay enough taxes to adequately cover what it costs the government to cover the basic cost of living for people whose hard work can't even earn a living wage). Wealth does not trickle down, it balloons at the top; and the bigger that balloon gets, the more people inside of it use the power that comes with wealth to make the balloon even bigger - THAT is what Bernie is trying to fix. He's not even remotely after redistributing wealth at 'small, independent business level' top. He's all about hard work making people rich, but with the important caveat that it should be one's own hard work making them rich - not using inherited/already acquired wealth to squeeze hard work out of other people to make oneself rich (to the point where their workers can't or can only just barely afford to survive).

I mean, even if that is Social Darwinism in your attitude and you do feel that much disgust for people who aren't as fortunate as you - it would still be in your best interest to have a government that wants to help them. Because you have to share a planet with them. People deprived of a dignified existence won't simply disappear when they're ignored; when they aren't given the relatively fair opportunity to earn it, they get angry and they start taking it in less civil ways. In other words: a "fuck you" attitude to less fortunate people for being less fortunate will result in that "fuck you" attitude being reflected right back at you - and there's only so many places to hide, we're all trapped on this big rock with each other.

 

[Justin of Flavia Neapolis]

Trump is now the only person of color left in this race.

 

[anticlimatic]

This sounds like survival of the fittest/Social Darwinism thinking. Like, "I don't understand why anyone among 'the fittest' would begin to give a shit about people who are less fortunate." I mean, you do realize that Bernie's brand of wealth distribution isn't about preventing people from becoming rich, right? It's about the mega-rich who use their wealth to generate more wealth, who don't pay their fair share (who don't pay those whose labor exponentially increases their wealth a living wage - let alone a fair[/] wage - and who use their wealth to influence government to make sure they don't even pay enough taxes to adequately cover what it costs the government to cover the basic cost of living for people whose hard work can't even earn a living wage). Wealth does not trickle down, it balloons at the top; and the bigger that balloon gets, the more people inside of it use the power that comes with wealth to make the balloon even bigger - THAT is what Bernie is trying to fix. He's not even remotely after redistributing wealth at 'small, independent business level' top. He's all about hard work making people rich, but with the important caveat that it should be one's own hard work making them rich - not using inherited/already acquired wealth to squeeze hard work out of other people to make oneself rich (to the point where their workers can't or can only just barely afford to survive). I mean, even if that is Social Darwinism in your attitude and you do feel that much disgust for people who aren't as fortunate as you - it would still be in your best interest to have a government that wants to help them. Because you have to share a planet with them. People deprived of a dignified existence won't simply disappear when they're ignored; when they aren't given the relatively fair opportunity to earn it, they get angry and they start taking it in less civil ways. In other words: a "fuck you" attitude to less fortunate people for being less fortunate will result in that "fuck you" attitude being reflected right back at you - and there's only so many places to hide, we're all trapped on this big rock with each other.

I'm well aware of the Bernie bro perspective, rhetoric, and psychological composition. But it's dogma predicated on irrational beliefs (awfulization of the rich as well as their current "poor" circumstances that are disproportionate to reality, beliefs that other people MUST do or believe xyz, beliefs that things should go their way because they want them to, etc), but they have very little substance or logic in the real world. If Bernie tried to tax the super rich the way he wants to, they would just leave the country. Buy an island or something. And there would go the money he was counting on for all the free stuff- free stuff which would also have to be bundled with an army of administrative employees to sort it all out (poorly and inefficiently) which would also have to be paid for. Taxes would have to increase on everyone to even BEGIN to put anything towards the socialist plan. Businesses that seem rich (my three man buisness pulls in 6 to 7 figures a year for example, but most of that goes towards insurance keeping up with codes/regulations and overhead) are often just doing well enough to keep going. Additional taxes could easily sink them, and definitely discourage more people from starting their own businesses. What seems like a lot of money to the socialist types really isn't.


I realize starting your own buisness is a risk, but if you do it based on reality (something people need, not just something you WANT to do) it really isn't much of a risk. In fact it's much more of a long term risk to NOT, if you're stuck in a dead end job and not putting away the kind of money you would need to keep yourself and your family safe in the future. It's hard to get out of ruts- especially comfortable and easy ones that dull us into the illusion of safety (I had a golden handcuffs job for a long time, so I know the feel). But anyone can be brave and better themselves. I wouldn't look down on people for not, but I won't stop encouraging them to try either. And I mean try in a REAL and hard way, not just keep on keeping on while trying to vote for free stuff.

I was on a job site last year with a similar tradesmen doing a separate part of the house. He was working for a company for not enough money, had more experience than the three of us combined, and great work ethic. He always flirted with going into buisness for himself but never had. All it took was for him to see how easy it was for us- three dudes with half the mental tools at our disposal as he had- and plenty of encouragement, to finally make the plunge. He's now rolling in it with a buisness of his own and twice the employees we have, and always gives me a huge hug and a thank you anytime I see him at the supply store.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

with the important caveat that it should be one's own hard work making them rich - not using inherited/already acquired wealth to squeeze hard work out of other people to make oneself rich (to the point where their workers can't or can only just barely afford to survive).

God, so much this.

- - - Updated - - -

Trump is now the only person of color left in this race.

I laughed and my drink shot out of my nose when I read this