“Can’t I find level headed Democrats, Republican and Independents that are level headed? Is walking across the aisle possible or is it mere hypocrisy?

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I just want to add - I hope people now see very clearly what kind of cancer lobbying groups have the capacity to be. AIPAC - The American Israel Public Affairs Committee - steers US policy. This isn't hyperbole in the least.

I'm reminded of a conversation I had in 2008, one where the subject of lobbyists came up.

As a general rule, I think because lobbying affects both sides, people want to be willfully ignorant as to its effects, dismissing it as "not important," for instance. People would prefer to dismiss problems as "the other guy's fault" and they can't do this if their side is engaging in it as well, which is the case with lobbyists of many different stripes, including AIPAC. It's also not uncommon for lobbyists to hedge their bets and give money to both sides of the aisle.

If you want to know what I think the biggest obstacle to our progress as a species is, it's willful blindness because people "want to believe." The truth doesn't always set people free; many will run away from it.

 

[The Cat]

I'm reminded of a conversation I had in 2008, one where the subject of lobbyists came up.

As a general rule, I think because lobbying affects both sides, people want to be willfully ignorant as to its effects, dismissing it as "not important," for instance. People would prefer to dismiss problems as "the other guy's fault" and they can't do this if their side is engaging in it as well, which is the case with lobbyists of many different stripes, including AIPAC. It's also not uncommon for lobbyists to hedge their bets and give money to both sides of the aisle.

If you want to know what I think the biggest obstacle to our progress as a species is, it's willful blindness because people "want to believe." The truth doesn't always set people free; many will run away from it.

This still implies that the truth will set you free, the fact that so many chose to remain prisoners to lies is incidental. Understanding is a three edged sword.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

This still implies that the truth will set you free, the fact that so many chose to remain prisoners to lies is incidental. Understanding is a three edged sword.

Well, it's hard to hard to have progress if people don't know what's actually going on.

 

[The Cat]

Well, it's hard to hard to have progress if people don't know what's actually going on.

Progression is inevitable. Valar morghulis, Valar doharis. Such is the lot of ALL humans. Whether they believe it or not or know it or not. Self Awareness is not a right one is born to. It is a Vigil one keeps.

 

[ceecee]

I'm reminded of a conversation I had in 2008, one where the subject of lobbyists came up.

As a general rule, I think because lobbying affects both sides, people want to be willfully ignorant as to its effects, dismissing it as "not important," for instance. People would prefer to dismiss problems as "the other guy's fault" and they can't do this if their side is engaging in it as well, which is the case with lobbyists of many different stripes, including AIPAC. It's also not uncommon for lobbyists to hedge their bets and give money to both sides of the aisle.

If you want to know what I think the biggest obstacle to our progress as a species is, it's willful blindness because people "want to believe." The truth doesn't always set people free; many will run away from it.

I mean, AARP is a lobbying group (regardless of what they call themselves), which I think most people see as advocacy for olds. But my husband signed us up and as I flip through the magazine that comes every month - there is a whole lot on Medicare Advantage plans, along with their own AARP Medicare gap branding. I see this as a huge conflict of interest. But that's just one. Unions have political arms that lobby, so does the Catholic church. Some lobbies are less destructive than others.

 

[The Cat]

I don't like them, but they've always existed, I dont harbor any illusions of getting rid of them. I just think the people ought to demand more of a hand in how they operate. But then if I knew how to put genies back in bottles I'd be in a gilded cage already I wish more people had the attention span to think about them with cognizant nuance. As Ceecee points out some are less destructive than others. Pirates and kings, walruses and carpenters for shoes and ships and sealing wax and a free young oyster dinner will do a lot. The price of a soul and the principles of an elected official often comes down to how many courses it is.

 

[ceecee]

I don't like them, but they've always existed, I dont harbor any illusions of getting rid of them. I just think the people ought to demand more of a hand in how they operate. But then if I knew how to put genies back in bottles I'd be in a gilded cage already I wish more people had the attention span to think about them with cognizant nuance. As Ceecee points out some are less destructive than others. Pirates and kings, walruses and carpenters for shoes and ships and sealing wax and a free young oyster dinner will do a lot. The price of a soul and the principles of an elected official often comes down to how many courses it is.

At least Congressional lobbying has some semblance of oversight/regulation - be it somewhat ridiculous and naturally, lobbyist target these regulations and laws to see if they can find the most disgusting congressperson most likely to lessen those laws that are hurting them SO BAD! But I digress.

As a person who is appointed by a municipality (not elected although I can be recalled and censured), I'm here to tell you that local lobbying is WILD! It's also almost totally unregulated. I mean most larger cities have ordinances to cover who has to register as a lobbyists and what lobbying has to be reported. I'm on the parks and rec commission and we have people lobbying us all the time - mostly for maaaaaybe you all miiiiight want to consider our contracting company to install your pickleball courts. Or expand the very popular splash pad. Or remove those dying trees. Or this architectural firm to design the improvements to your community center.

Of course these lobbyists all know the parks and rec commission isn't able to ok funding without the supervisory board oking funding but they want to get it out there. There are more subtle attempts like - this new youth soccer club would like to be the townships' go to for all youth soccer. Or the huge political argument currently going on between the little league from another city using our fields and that contract has now expired but they come to every meeting now to just "be present". lol

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I mean, AARP is a lobbying group (regardless of what they call themselves), which I think most people see as advocacy for olds. But my husband signed us up and as I flip through the magazine that comes every month - there is a whole lot on Medicare Advantage plans, along with their own AARP Medicare gap branding. I see this as a huge conflict of interest. But that's just one. Unions have political arms that lobby, so does the Catholic church. Some lobbies are less destructive than others.

I suspect the fossil fuel lobby is also pretty bad. Health insurance lobbies as well.

 

[ceecee]

I suspect the fossil fuel lobby is also pretty bad. Health insurance lobbies as well.

I know a BCBS lobbyist pretty well. She is as repulsive a person as they come and justifies it with the "non-profit" aspect of BCBS which is anything but. The NRA and every right wing megachurch are also non-profits.

 

[Virtual ghost]

At least Congressional lobbying has some semblance of oversight/regulation - be it somewhat ridiculous and naturally, lobbyist target these regulations and laws to see if they can find the most disgusting congressperson most likely to lessen those laws that are hurting them SO BAD! But I digress.

As a person who is appointed by a municipality (not elected although I can be recalled and censured), I'm here to tell you that local lobbying is WILD! It's also almost totally unregulated. I mean most larger cities have ordinances to cover who has to register as a lobbyists and what lobbying has to be reported. I'm on the parks and rec commission and we have people lobbying us all the time - mostly for maaaaaybe you all miiiiight want to consider our contracting company to install your pickleball courts. Or expand the very popular splash pad. Or remove those dying trees. Or this architectural firm to design the improvements to your community center.

Of course these lobbyists all know the parks and rec commission isn't able to ok funding without the supervisory board oking funding but they want to get it out there. There are more subtle attempts like - this new youth soccer club would like to be the townships' go to for all youth soccer. Or the huge political argument currently going on between the little league from another city using our fields and that contract has now expired but they come to every meeting now to just "be present". lol

With this you have basically confirmed what I am saying for quite some time. If you want changes you have to start with local level. This level is almost never on big TV news, however this is where practical details are getting sorted out when it comes to the environment in which you are living. Usually there is quite a number of local seats and it really matters who sits in them (I am talking about morals not partisanship). Having your own local government under control and in domain of common sense really matters when it comes to how exactly will you live.

 

[ceecee]

With this you have basically confirmed what I am saying for quite some time. If you want changes you have to start with local level. This level is almost never on big TV news, however this is where practical details are getting sorted out when it comes to the environment in which you are living. Usually there is quite a number of local seats and it really matters who sits in them (I am talking about morals not partisanship). Having your own local government under control and in domain of common sense really matters when it comes to how exactly will you live.

At least here in my township that very much is the case and I'm grateful after experiencing the opposite elsewhere. The GOP now commonly elects and appoints batshit candidates and state chairs all over the country and people continue to think they can reason with their voters.
The right are low hanging fruit. Why sacrifice the safety of the marginalized for the comfort of the lowest common denominator? I know you have said it before and so have I but - political apathetic, undecided, centrists, and center-libs should always get the outreach.

 

[The Cat]

At least Congressional lobbying has some semblance of oversight/regulation - be it somewhat ridiculous and naturally, lobbyist target these regulations and laws to see if they can find the most disgusting congressperson most likely to lessen those laws that are hurting them SO BAD! But I digress.

As a person who is appointed by a municipality (not elected although I can be recalled and censured), I'm here to tell you that local lobbying is WILD! It's also almost totally unregulated. I mean most larger cities have ordinances to cover who has to register as a lobbyists and what lobbying has to be reported. I'm on the parks and rec commission and we have people lobbying us all the time - mostly for maaaaaybe you all miiiiight want to consider our contracting company to install your pickleball courts. Or expand the very popular splash pad. Or remove those dying trees. Or this architectural firm to design the improvements to your community center.

Of course these lobbyists all know the parks and rec commission isn't able to ok funding without the supervisory board oking funding but they want to get it out there. There are more subtle attempts like - this new youth soccer club would like to be the townships' go to for all youth soccer. Or the huge political argument currently going on between the little league from another city using our fields and that contract has now expired but they come to every meeting now to just "be present". lol

I'll bet you could tell some head spinning crazy stories.

 

[Kephalos]

All too often people, even intelligent and well-meaning people, mistake compromise with capitulation or unconditional surrender. Compromise, or bipartisanship, or walking across the aisle become something like "give me everything I want and I will give you nothing of what you want", terms which are naturally rejected once they are proposed and even dismissed before they are even proposed. And I'm not talking just about domestic politics, but about foreign policy as well (who knew that merely issuing ultimatums is not real diplomacy).

Politics, instead of being the art of the possible (Prince Otto von Bismarck), becomes the mere continuation of civil war with other means (Carl Schmitt). And worse, since we live in societies that foolishly insist (in my opinion) to have the mass of the populace participate in politics, this way of thinking eventually permeates all of social life (not just political life, part of social life).

In conclusion, no. At this moment you will find no level-headed persons willing to "walk across the aisle", simply because actually level-headed people from any political affiliation know what is meant when others say they want them to "walk across the isle". Is this an unsolvable problem? No, not in the very long term, but it is certainly not something that will be resolved for the time being. Until then, I think what is called for is an excess of caution and and excess of mistrust, the necessity of reinforcing existing institutional checks and balances to prevent abuse of power and even the mere exercise of power, apart from coming up with new ones, all built on the low but solid ground of self-interest.

Bryan Caplan: The Divisiveness of Cohesion

Suppose you live in a deeply divided society: 60% of people strongly identify with Group A, and the other 40% strongly identify with Group B. While you plainly belong to Group A, you’re convinced this division is bad: It would be much better if everyone felt like they belonged to Group AB. You seek a cohesive society, where everyone feels like they’re on the same team.

What’s the best way to bring this cohesion about? Your all-too-human impulse is to loudly preach the value of cohesion. But on reflection, this is probably counter-productive. When members of Group B hear you, they’re going to take “cohesion” as a euphemism for “abandon your identity, and submit to the dominance of Group A.” None too enticing. And when members of Group A notice Group B’s recalcitrance, they’re probably going to think, “We offer Group B the olive branch of cohesion, and they spit in our faces. Typical.” Instead of forging As and Bs into one people, preaching cohesion tears them further apart.

What’s the alternative? Simple. Instead of preaching cohesion, reach out to Group B. Unilaterally show them respect. Unilaterally show them friendliness. They’ll be distrustful at first, but cohesion can’t be built in a day. If respect and friendliness fail, try, try, and try again. There are no guarantees in life, but human beings are born reciprocators. If you stubbornly ask to shake a man’s hand, odds are he’ll eventually offer his in return. Once enough people walk this path of unilateral respect and friendliness, differences fade away – and cohesion silently takes its place.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

All too often people, even intelligent and well-meaning people, mistake compromise with capitulation or unconditional surrender.

I think it is weak if it's entered into in this lame good faith way when thre is enough data to know the opponents will try to take maximum advantage. There are people who swoon at the idea of politicians playing the role of regal, dignified statesmen, but that's not me.

Compromise, or bipartisanship, or walking across the aisle become something like "give me everything I want and I will give you nothing of what you want", terms which are naturally rejected once they are proposed and even dismissed before they are even proposed. And I'm not talking just about domestic politics, but about foreign policy as well (who knew that merely issuing ultimatums is not real diplomacy).