Trump vs. Bernie

[Virtual ghost]

Btw. that talking point was over what some Americans "overcome" certain positions that are typical for the country. What doesn't mean they all do even if they fit the profile I created. Those things are only lowering probabilities.

 

[Maou]

I claim they aren't. They are liberal-globalist in talking points, the very fact they don't support Medicare for all means they can't be Socio-democractic. Genuine socio-democracy doesn't really exists in US and it is generally an obscure underground rather than anything mainstream. Bernie moved this a little bit but he is still clear "outsider".



While Hungary at the time was Communist, what also isn't socio-democracy. The differences between socio-democracy and Communism are huge, one is totalitarian absolute dictatorship that controls everything and the other is regulated capitalism with certain safety nets. They are pure day and nigh in the terms of human development. Also socio-democracy has elections while Communism doesn't.



Just saying.

Whats the difference between social democracy, and socialism? That you just vote it in? Still going to eventually have the same effects as full blown socialism. How will you get rid of wait times, bureaucracy, and the overall slow process that socialized medicine brings? I think its unrealistic to say that you can get everything free, when you have to wait 6 months for a life saving surgery while the numerous people checking in for a cough are the reason the wait times are so long to begin with. All this does is fuck over actually sick people, and make not sick people feel better when they are just wasting everyone else's time and tax dollars. Socialized medicine on top of America's proneness for bureaucracy, and low effectiveness would lead to disaster. Its like trying to convert a corvette into a hybrid, and taking out the turbo. The gas mileage doesn't really make up for the low performance. And you are now stuck with a shit car.

A solution to this could be that we create a three tiered system. Where one tier is for annual checkups and basic medicine for non-sick patients. Then a tier for slightly sick patients, but non life threatening. Where they can be tested for various things. Then a ICU tier, where people with severe sickness and need of help can get the help they need without waiting. The government funds all 3, but different in amounts. Or maybe the non-sick tier is private based. Maybe even a mix of private and government systems. Which I think is the best bet.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Whats the difference between social democracy, and socialism? That you just vote it in? Still going to eventually have the same effects as full blown socialism. How will you get rid of wait times, bureaucracy, and the overall slow process that socialized medicine brings? I think its unrealistic to say that you can get everything free, when you have to wait 6 months for a life saving surgery while the numerous people checking in for a cough are the reason the wait times are so long to begin with. All this does is fuck over actually sick people, and make not sick people feel better when they are just wasting everyone else's time and tax dollars. Socialized medicine on top of America's proneness for bureaucracy, and low effectiveness would lead to disaster. Its like trying to convert a corvette into a hybrid, and taking out the turbo. The gas mileage doesn't really make up for the low performance. And you are now stuck with a shit car.

A solution to this could be that we create a three tiered system. Where one tier is for annual checkups and basic medicine for non-sick patients. Then a tier for slightly sick patients, but non life threatening. Where they can be tested for various things. Then a ICU tier, where people with severe sickness and need of help can get the help they need without waiting. The government funds all 3, but different in amounts. Or maybe the non-sick tier is private based. Maybe even a mix of private and government systems. Which I think is the best bet.

As I said before (I believe it was to Anticlimactic): American talking point of "socialism" doesn't really exist, since Americans are mixing two ideologies. One is Socio-democracy and the other is Socialism/Communism. Even the dumbass Bernie can't really get this straight and that will cost him BIG.



Communism/socialism is basically everything you have ever heard about the USSR, Mao, Cuba, the gulags, the hunger ... etc. While soco-democracy is developed capitalism that has stockmarket, free and fair elections every few years, the taxes are somewhat higher than in classic capitalism but healthcare sector is much more friendly to people. Both in costs and bureaucracy, plus going to university is tuition free or much cheaper. Plus legal and physical safety is higher than in "every man for himself" societies. All of this depends from country to country since there is a fair amount of diversity in the details but all mentioned points are the general picture. While on the other hand my country had the whole war of independence so that it can shift from Communism to socio-democracy. Here people are actually cursing when "globalists" are pushing at us "classic Capitalism" as replacement/alternative for socio-democracy. Therefore for me these are really two different things.




Wait times are easy. If there is a emergency you are going over the line, period. Or if they are really having waiting lists they often tell you where around the city you have shorter waiting lists for what you need, since you aren't bound to a single specialist. However from what I have heard USA also has problems with waiting so it isn't that this is back an white issue, especially if you are poor. Plus as the government is involved you can nudge this through democracy, writing to officials or even through snap elections if needed. Therefore even if all parties want to crash the healthcare system you can always just invent new party and bypass the whole system, if there is really a dire need for that. I mean the greatest benefit is probably in the stress, because in the case your life went completely to hell you can always get medical treatment. The same goes for your sick kids and scenarios that something happens to you. Plus Ambulance has no out of pocket costs.



When I go to the doctor I am always received right away and only if I need a specialist I will need to wait for some time (but if it is emergency I am going over the line).
I just come in and I say what is wrong, and therefore I either get a prescription or they send me to a specialist for further tests or whatever. There is no paperwork involved for me. I have even gotten surgery without any out of pocket paying, while the most expensive prescription drug I have ever bought wasn't more than 20$ (most of them are around 5-10$, if they are are not free at spot) Plus outside of socialized medicine there are a few private clinics for those that "insert the reason", but those are costly. There is room for further improvement and we aren't the most advanced socio-democracy out there, but next to what I see in USA this is really great system for average working people. Especially since here there are no healthcare related bankruptcies.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Most of them are around 5-10$, if they are are not free at spot.

I messed up, now I added "If". What changes the whole point.

 

[ceecee]

As I said before (I believe it was to Anticlimactic): American talking point of "socialism" doesn't really exist, since Americans are mixing two ideologies. One is Socio-democracy and the other is Socialism/Communism. Even the dumbass Bernie can't really get this straight and that will cost him BIG.



Communism/socialism is basically everything you have ever heard about the USSR, Mao, Cuba, the gulags, the hunger ... etc. While soco-democracy is developed capitalism that has stockmarket, free and fair elections every few years, the taxes are somewhat higher than in classic capitalism but healthcare sector is much more friendly to people. Both in costs and bureaucracy, plus going to university is tuition free or much cheaper. Plus legal and physical safety is higher than in "every man for himself" societies. All of this depends from country to country since there is a fair amount of diversity in the details but all mentioned points are the general picture. While on the other hand my country had the whole war of independence so that it can shift from Communism to socio-democracy. Here people are actually cursing when "globalists" are pushing at us "classic Capitalism" as replacement/alternative for socio-democracy. Therefore for me these are really two different things.




Wait times are easy. If there is a emergency you are going over the line, period. Or if they are really having waiting lists they often tell you where around the city you have shorter waiting lists for what you need, since you aren't bound to a single specialist. However from what I have heard USA also has problems with waiting so it isn't that this is back an white issue, especially if you are poor. Plus as the government is involved you can nudge this through democracy, writing to officials or even through snap elections if needed. Therefore even if all parties want to crash the healthcare system you can always just invent new party and bypass the whole system, if there is really a dire need for that. I mean the greatest benefit is probably in the stress, because in the case your life went completely to hell you can always get medical treatment. The same goes for your sick kids and scenarios that something happens to you. Plus Ambulance has no out of pocket costs.



When I go to the doctor I am always received right away and only if I need a specialist I will need to wait for some time (but if it is emergency I am going over the line).
I just come in and I say what is wrong, and therefore I either get a prescription or they send me to a specialist for further tests or whatever. There is no paperwork involved for me. I have even gotten surgery without any out of pocket paying, while the most expensive prescription drug I have ever bought wasn't more than 20$ (most of them are around 5-10$, if they are are not free at spot) Plus outside of socialized medicine there are a few private clinics for those that "insert the reason", but those are costly. There is room for further improvement and we aren't the most advanced socio-democracy out there, but next to what I see in USA this is really great system for average working people. Especially since here there are no healthcare related bankruptcies.

Dude, just stop with her. She's a goddamn meme - all news is Social Democratic talking points?? lol. US corporate main stream media are neoliberal capitalists. All of them. Including Fox. Full stop. They are all the same. 90% of the stuff she post is drawn directly from right wing talking points.

While I really like hearing about your life in Europe, she is <this close> to just calling you a fucking communist and when you correct her she will say - close enough. She's just waiting for the next Donald Trump Jr. tweet telling her what to say.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

As I said before (I believe it was to Anticlimactic): American talking point of "socialism" doesn't really exist, since Americans are mixing two ideologies. One is Socio-democracy and the other is Socialism/Communism. Even the dumbass Bernie can't really get this straight and that will cost him BIG.

Yeah. There are 3 good points in this clip from Overtime, 2 of them germane to this post. (1) Around 3:45 Van Jones points out that Bernie's brand of "socialism" might more aptly be called Grandparent Envy, because it's really more about wanting the kind of access to affordable healthcare, housing, school, etc. that we had in this country around the 50s than it is full on socialism. And then (2) Bret Stephens pointed out that he'd really love to hear the aspects of capitalism that Bernie promises to keep - and honestly, I think it'd go a *long* way with calming the hysteria currently surrounding "socialism" in this election. I regularly see comments from people actually afraid it will lead to gulags or concentration camps (not gonna bother mentioning current situation with border camps, but...). Anyway, I agree Bernie needs to start clarifying - because if he gets the nomination, 45's people are going to really crank up the fear-mongering and weaponization of "socialism" - and there's already a ridiculous amount of hysteria and false narrative surrounding it.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Dude, just stop with her. She's a goddamn meme - all news is Social Democratic talking points?? lol. US corporate main stream media are neoliberal capitalists. All of them. Including Fox. Full stop. They are all the same. 90% of the stuff she post is drawn directly from right wing talking points.

While I really like hearing about your life in Europe, she is <this close> to just calling you a fucking communist and when you correct her she will say - close enough. She's just waiting for the next Donald Trump Jr. tweet telling her what to say.

I think that your American individualism is showing up. As you have nicely pointed out you like to read my posts on the topic and that is what I have in mind when I make a longer one. I consider my posts to be public property that isn't really addressed to anyone here in particular, regardless of who was quoted in reply. Since at least 10 more people will read what I said. In a way it is better that it is right winger on the other side because in that case it is easier to make clearer case for my talking points (due to contrast). I mean even if she calls me a Communist, so what ? I probably have thicker skin than you are her combined. Not to mention that even if she does that the argument wouldn't stand, what is kinda the point behind my post.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Why don't you 'radicals' go rob someone's house, you'll feel better after 'leveling the playing field'.

Why don’t you enter politics? There’s lots of room for strawmen there

 

[ceecee]

I think that your American individualism is showing up. As you have nicely pointed out you like to read my posts on the topic and that is what I have in mind when I make a longer one. I consider my posts to be public property that isn't really addressed to anyone here in particular, regardless of who was quoted in reply. Since at least 10 more people will read what I said. In a way it is better that it is right winger on the other side because in that case it is easier to make clearer case for my talking points (due to contrast). I mean even if she calls me a Communist, so what ? I probably have thicker skin than you are her combined. Not to mention that even if she does that the argument wouldn't stand, what is kinda the point behind my post.

You're right.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Still going to eventually have the same effects as full blown socialism. How will you get rid of wait times, bureaucracy, and the overall slow process that socialized medicine brings? I think its unrealistic to say that you can get everything free, when you have to wait 6 months for a life saving surgery while the numerous people checking in for a cough are the reason the wait times are so long to begin with. All this does is fuck over actually sick people, and make not sick people feel better when they are just wasting everyone else's time and tax dollars. Socialized medicine on top of America's proneness for bureaucracy, and low effectiveness would lead to disaster. Its like trying to convert a corvette into a hybrid, and taking out the turbo. The gas mileage doesn't really make up for the low performance. And you are now stuck with a shit car.

People already have to wait for a lot of medical procedures in the current USA system, and they're lucky if their insurance provider decides to cover their medicine or procedures.

I'd take waiting with the guarantee of service and coverage vs waiting with no guarantee against financial ruin if my provider chooses to decline coverage.

We're already driving a shit car. A pinto that sometimes starts and sometimes doesn't start, and will burst into flame if rammed hard enough from behind.

 

[Jaguar]

Why don’t you enter politics? There’s lots of room for strawmen there

That's all you came up with? Disappointing.

 

[Red Memories]

People already have to wait for a lot of medical procedures in the current USA system, and they're lucky if their insurance provider decides to cover their medicine or procedures.

I'd take waiting with the guarantee of service and coverage vs waiting with no guarantee against financial ruin if my provider chooses to decline coverage.

We're already driving a shit car. A pinto that sometimes starts and sometimes doesn't start, and will burst into flame if rammed hard enough from behind.

yeah...they have to wait for some organ transplant to be available then later file bankruptcy because of the gigantic medical bill you get. I guess I don't see a better option besides the socialized medicine, not trying to make everything free, but because no one can fucking afford what they need. Especially if you're in that sector like say my brother. He makes enough money he isn't considered for Medicaid or anything level poor, but he is too poor to get good insurance so his copays are huge and they don't usually cover his prescription well so his stuff ends up like $100 on top of the medical bill.

We definitely need healthcare reform.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Disappointing.

You? No, not disappointing, only because you've become so predictable and rote.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Yeah. There are 3 good points in this clip from Overtime, 2 of them germane to this post. (1) Around 3:45 Van Jones points out that Bernie's brand of "socialism" might more aptly be called Grandparent Envy, because it's really more about wanting the kind of access to affordable healthcare, housing, school, etc. that we had in this country around the 50s than it is full on socialism. And then (2) Bret Stephens pointed out that he'd really love to hear the aspects of capitalism that Bernie promises to keep - and honestly, I think it'd go a *long* way with calming the hysteria currently surrounding "socialism" in this election. I regularly see comments from people actually afraid it will lead to gulags or concentration camps (not gonna bother mentioning current situation with border camps, but...). Anyway, I agree Bernie needs to start clarifying - because if he gets the nomination, 45's people are going to really crank up the fear-mongering and weaponization of "socialism" - and there's already a ridiculous amount of hysteria and false narrative surrounding it.

Actually out of all people on the table the first I would actually call "Socialist" is Trump.



Building the new iron curtain on the border with Mexico, disrupting global flow of goods, is expanding the military and police, no genuine religious feelings, supreme leader cult of personality, promises the new era for the whole country, is Ok with mass surveillance, generally friendly or at least neutral towards Russia in talking points, demands loyalty over anything, is ok with large public deficits ....



I don't know where Americans are watching, the guy is full of "the worst of socialism". Which he simply packs as the new wave of patriotism.
Since I am from ex-communist country back in 2016 we actually had news on the basis: "The new American president should sound awkwardly familiar to our country" or "Where have we heard all of that ?". The Trump supporters themselves are like "We never had a guy like this", which is because the country never had a socialist POTUS. He is well warped in American culture but once you scratch the surface .... socialist strongman. Some here will get offended but is how it is. When mainstream messes up big time this kind of a person is likely to take over the country.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Actually out of all people on the table the first I would actually call "Socialist" is Trump.



Building the new iron curtain on the border with Mexico, disrupting global flow of goods, is expanding the military and police, no genuine religious feelings, supreme leader cult of personality, promises the new era for the whole country, is Ok with mass surveillance, generally friendly or at least neutral towards Russia in talking points, demands loyalty over anything, is ok with large public deficits ....



I don't know where Americans are watching, the guy is full of "the worst of socialism". Which he simply packs as the new wave of patriotism.
Since I am from ex-communist country back in 2016 we actually had news on the basis: "The new American president should sound awkwardly familiar to our country" or "Where have we heard all of that ?". The Trump supporters themselves are like "We never had a guy like this", which is because the country never had a socialist POTUS. He is well warped in American culture but once you scratch the surface .... socialist strongman. Some here will get offended but is how it is. When mainstream messes up big time this kind of a person is likely to take over the country.

Yes. Trump isn't even a real conservative. Goldwater would be shitting himself if he saw the so-called conservatives that have lined up behind Trump.

Trump is indeed a socialist strongman, not unlike his ideological ancestors Hitler and Mussolini. Conservatives always wind up falling for right wing strongmen. They eat that shit up and don't even realize what they're really ingesting. Earth, Hitler, 1933--key to Hitler coming to power was being able to get the old school conservative wings of the German political system on his side.

 

[Jaguar]

so predictable and rote.

Bernie.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Bernie.

confirming my point. so, so predictable.

 

[Jaguar]

so predictable.

Feel the Bern.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

Feel the Bern.

There's a many great products for hemorrhoids that can help you deal with that burning sensation.

 

[Jaguar]

Trump & Sanders drove me to become a Democrat. Other disgusted Republicans should join me.
I registered Democratic this year to vote against Bernie in a primary. In many states there's still time for Never-Trump conservatives to do the same.

I don't love Democrats but I hope Trump will jolt them onto a new path