No heaven above us and no hell below us

[Beorn]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION]

I'm happy to continue our discussion here. Perhaps we can start new and not presume the other is trying to make us look bad.

At the same time I think there are necessary outcomes of beliefs, yours, mine, and everyone's. These outcome can be recognized if they flow logically and consistently from the stated beliefs.

So perhaps we can restart the conversation my contention is that the belief that "all truths are equal" is just another truth claim amongst other truth claims and is not unique or necessarily tolerant.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I don't think she's trying to antagonize you.

 

[Beorn]

I don't think she's trying to antagonize you.

Yeah. I know. I'm not trying to antagonize her.

She said she would continue in another thread and I took her at her word.
I think it's worth discussing. That's why I started the initial conversation.

 

[miss fortune]

I'm not claiming to be uniquely tolerant... I just have yet to thoroughly investigate every truth to a level at which I would feel comfortable in deciding that one was any more true than any other and I don't believe that it's possible for anyone to actually do so

everyone has different lives and therefore everyone has a different perspective on things, even within particular belief structures... there is no such thing as a monolithic belief in which everyone thinks in unison

I have my own opinions on things just as you have yours and those beliefs come from innate qualities, life experiences and upbringing and I don't feel that it's my job to judge things that I cannot ever fully understand

 

[Beorn]

Maybe it would also help to clarify terms.

I'm curious what Whatever means when she says that she believes in meaning and meaningfulness.
Maybe we do think of it in the same way, maybe not.

 

[Beorn]

I'm not claiming to be uniquely tolerant... I just have yet to thoroughly investigate every truth to a level at which I would feel comfortable in deciding that one was any more true than any other and I don't believe that it's possible for anyone to actually do so

everyone has different lives and therefore everyone has a different perspective on things, even within particular belief structures... there is no such thing as a monolithic belief in which everyone thinks in unison

I have my own opinions on things just as you have yours and those beliefs come from innate qualities, life experiences and upbringing and I don't feel that it's my job to judge things that I cannot ever fully understand

But that in itself is a judgment. You're judging that you and others are incapable of coming to universal understanding about anything.

 

[Beorn]

Btw, this doesn't have to be a one-sided critique feel free to criticize my own conception of truth.

 

[miss fortune]

also people have things in which they believe... most of the time, whether the person is a follower of a conventional religion or not, that tends to boil down towards treating others well

whether or not a person believes in a god does not control whether or not they've made decisions to make life better... whether they've decided to behave with compassion towards those who are experiencing hardships, whether they think towards making the planet and societies covering it a place worth living for future generations and whether they choose to respect their fellow human beings. Just because I believe that when I die I will return to the universe does not mean that I do not feel guilty when I do wrong towards others... I feel bad about it because this is my one shot to exist... my one chance to live and experience life and be a person and I don't want to leave this world a worse place just because I lived.

meaning is what we give things to give them weight, and most people, regardless of faith, tend to value the same things... it just matters whether they actually act or not.

 

[miss fortune]

But that in itself is a judgment. You're judging that you and others are incapable of coming to universal understanding about anything.

in christianity would you not say that only god is capable of passing such judgments?

I am not presuming to be a god of any sort, merely a human being... humanity is incapable of knowing everything so far

 

[Beorn]

in christianity would you not say that only god is capable of passing such judgments?

I am not presuming to be a god of any sort, merely a human being... humanity is incapable of knowing everything so far

No. Actually my pastor just preached on this section from the Sermon on the Mount last week.

God doesn't want us to condemn (that's his job) but we still have to discern the truth. Discerning the truth is absolutely essential to have a good functioning, albeit imperfect, society.

Over and over we are told to be discerning, to be wise, to know the teachings in the bible.

 

[Beorn]

When Jesus saw the woman at the well who had many husbands he saved her from condemnation, but he still told her to go and sin no more.
So the idea is to recognize what is good and evil, call it out, but without condemning.

 

[miss fortune]

No. Actually my pastor just preached on this section from the Sermon on the Mount last week.

God doesn't want us to condemn (that's his job) but we still have to discern the truth. Discerning the truth is absolutely essential to have a good functioning, albeit imperfect, society.

Over and over we are told to be discerning, to be wise, to know the teachings in the bible.

but one is cautioned not to judge if you are also guilty, lest you become a hypocrite, which is quite the dirty word... and people are woefully inadequate at sussing out their own flaws in many cases

I realize that I am flawed and I realize that I have done terrible things... therefore I see it as best to offer kindness to others as opposed to judgement. In part because I can understand the things that situations can drive a person to, in part because I've been there and in part because if I show them kindness it is more likely that they will do the same.

The nuns I stayed with offered the same help to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs and I liked that

I prefer to go from the source as opposed to hearing interpretations... always did the same with research as well.

 

[Beorn]

but one is cautioned not to judge if you are also guilty, lest you become a hypocrite, which is quite the dirty word... and people are woefully inadequate at sussing out their own flaws in many cases

That's judgement in the sense of condemnation. Not discernment. Remember it wasn't just that they were calling the woman an adulteress, but that they were going to stone her. Jesus discerned that she was an adulteress as well, but he didn't condemn her and told her not to sin anymore.

I realize that I am flawed and I realize that I have done terrible things...

By what standard have you done terrible things? Society's? Your family and friends? Yourself?

That's a bit different than recognizing that you have transgressed universal law and God himself.

therefore I see it as best to offer kindness to others as opposed to judgement.

Is it kind to tell a heroin addict to do whatever they think is best?
Is it kind to tell a collector of child porn that it's OK as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?
Is it kind to tell a man going through a mid-life crisis that wants to dump his wife and kids for a 25 yo that he should just follow his heart?

In part because I can understand the things that situations can drive a person to, in part because I've been there and in part because if I show them kindness it is more likely that they will do the same.

Empathy and discernment are not at odds with one another. You can be both discerning and empathetic.

The nuns I stayed with offered the same help to everyone regardless of their religious beliefs and I liked that

That's great.

 

[Riva]

When Jesus saw the woman at the well who had many husbands he saved her from condemnation, but he still told her to go and sin no more.
So the idea is to recognize what is good and evil, call it out, but without condemning.

Sometimes I think Jesus is the only good man in the bible. Too bad he didn't meet the criteria of the promised messiah.

 

[Beorn]

Sometimes I think Jesus is the only good man in the bible.

That's half the point of the bible. Most of the people were horrible.

 

[Coriolis]

Maybe it would also help to clarify terms.

I'm curious what Whatever means when she says that she believes in meaning and meaningfulness.
Maybe we do think of it in the same way, maybe not.

But that in itself is a judgment. You're judging that you and others are incapable of coming to universal understanding about anything.

Truth is related to meaning. Some things have different meanings for different people. Other things mean pretty much the same to everyone. Mathematics and much of scientific knowledge falls into the second category. It is what we often call "objective". In spiritual matters, however, it is quite common for different people to find different meaning in the same thing. That might be wrong in a math problem, but not in one's personal spiritual journey.

Is it kind to tell a heroin addict to do whatever they think is best?
Is it kind to tell a collector of child porn that it's OK as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?
Is it kind to tell a man going through a mid-life crisis that wants to dump his wife and kids for a 25 yo that he should just follow his heart?

Unless you are certain the person is an addict, or a child porn collector, or about to dump his wife for a bimbo, you probably should not be telling them anything at all. If you know them well enough to have this certainty, whatever you do tell them should be told in kindness rather than judgment. As for your specific examples:

1. An addict has to accept he has a problem and want to address it before any progress can be made. Therefore, this is almost the only advice one can give. Eventually he will come to think that "what is best" is to get treatment. Or, he will end up in jail or dead.

2. This advice contains an inherent contradiction which makes it amount to encouragement to stop.

3. A man who is about to dump his wife in such circumstances is following parts of his anatomy other than his heart.

 

[indra]

Are we asserting that objectivity can only be reached when the two absolutes of good and evil are actualized?

 

[miss fortune]

That's judgement in the sense of condemnation. Not discernment. Remember it wasn't just that they were calling the woman an adulteress, but that they were going to stone her. Jesus discerned that she was an adulteress as well, but he didn't condemn her and told her not to sin anymore.

I'm not Jesus, nor am I a Christian... I do not know her situation. Plus, I have a bit different definitions of some things...

By what standard have you done terrible things? Society's? Your family and friends? Yourself?

That's a bit different than recognizing that you have transgressed universal law and God himself.

all of the above, including that if there is a god and there is a hell I realize that there is a special place there for me

Is it kind to tell a heroin addict to do whatever they think is best?
Is it kind to tell a collector of child porn that it's OK as long as he doesn't hurt anyone?
Is it kind to tell a man going through a mid-life crisis that wants to dump his wife and kids for a 25 yo that he should just follow his heart?

Is telling any of the above people that they're being an asshole going to change their behavior? No... but is helping them figure out their way going to change their behavior? Giving someone something warm to eat or listening to them until they've sorted out their own mistakes? People make their own decisions, outside condemnation rarely changes that. Anyway... the more you show any form of judgement of an addict, the more they will push you away and do the opposite of what you desire and I know this from both sides.

I'm all for letting others do whatever they want on their own time as long as it's safe, sane and consensual... once it crosses that line, however, it becomes a social problem as opposed to a personal problem and it becomes society's job to fix as opposed to the individual's. If a dude desires to fuck another dude who's into that sort of thing I've got no problem with that... sure, I may not enjoy anal, but if they do good for them. If a dude slips it into another guy in the gym shower as a surprise that's not cool... he didn't have permission to cross that line. There's a difference

Empathy and discernment are not at odds with one another. You can be both discerning and empathetic.

but once you've passed judgement, your actions will be tainted by the judgement passed... they'll know by looking into your eyes what you think of them.

recognize the fact that I do have a code, but it is not Christianity... I view things a bit differently and through the lens of different experiences

 

[Jaguar]

God doesn't want us to condemn (that's his job) [...]

If that's the case, he and Hitler could swap spit and be happy campers.

 

[Jaguar]

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky


Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...