No heaven above us and no hell below us

[miss fortune]

and this reminds me... one of the things that has turned me off of religion the most is the concept of Hell

I'm not a good person and I would hope that if there were a God he/she would be better than I am- kinder, more compassionate and more merciful... you know, God is Love and all of that.

However, asshole that I may be, I could never condemn someone to eternal torment... that's just plain evil. Especially since some of the reasons for sending people there seem downright petty by my standards.

The problem is, even if someone comes to their own conclusions that they don't believe in the religion in which they were raised, if that religion had a hell that still lurks in the back of the mind... I never really believed in God or the Devil or anything of that sort because it never seemed to make any sense to me, but that primitive bit of my brain that wonders what's in the dark under my bed and makes me run up the stairs at night as if Jack the Ripper is chasing me? It never got the memo and there's always a Hell paranoia there You grow up being told that you're going to Hell for certain aspects of who you are and you get told that on a pretty regular basis and it eventually just takes up residence somewhere in your mind... it doesn't matter what you believe, it's going to be there with all of the other negative things that nag you when you're feeling not so great about yourself... your paranoia about your nose, those really bad things you did and can't forgive yourself for, those grey hairs that keep creeping onto your head while you're not paying attention and you're going to burn in hell forever because you're not good.

control through fear... making a person feel worse about themselves... I don't understand it... I just don't

I'm pretty sure that I'm not the only person on this site who feels that way either... growing up around religion and religious people can fuck with your brain in some not so good ways

 

[GarrotTheThief]

from a sensory perspective, heavan and hell are undisputable realities.

If we were burning alive, slaves, or getting burning from disease or bitter cold we would be in hell, and if we were feeling great relaxed peace and tranquility we would be in a state of heavenly bliss.

Given that either state is eternal in the sense that it is biologically an archetypal state which persists forever pulsing in and out through our human experience, since we can measure that to the degree we can say gravity is eternal, we can say that these two states of heaven and hell are very really and are on earth, in earth, above it, and below it.

I'm not speaking biblical hear. The Idea of an upper and lower world is universal to all cultures and people, even atheists believe there is a sky and a ground, one which is above and below, but with no absolute plain of reference, is as much superstition beyond the sensate as believing in lawn gnomes coming to life after 10 pm.

And since I've chosen to focus on the sensate which is as real as getting hit by a car or sitting in a hot tub, and indisputable, I have just proven that both heaven and hell exist as real, incarnate states, not metaphysical ideas.

 

[miss fortune]

from a sensory perspective, heavan and hell are undisputable realities.

If we were burning alive, slaves, or getting burning from disease or bitter cold we would be in hell, and if we were feeling great relaxed peace and tranquility we would be in a state of heavenly bliss.

Given that either state is eternal in the sense that it is biologically an archetypal state which persists forever pulsing in and out through our human experience, since we can measure that to the degree we can say gravity is eternal, we can say that these two states of heaven and hell are very really and are on earth, in earth, above it, and below it.

I'm not speaking biblical hear. The Idea of an upper and lower world is universal to all cultures and people, even atheists believe there is a sky and a ground, one which is above and below, but with no absolute plain of reference, is as much superstition beyond the sensate as believing in lawn gnomes coming to life after 10 pm.

And since I've chosen to focus on the sensate which is as real as getting hit by a car or sitting in a hot tub, and indisputable, I have just proven that both heaven and hell exist as real, incarnate states, not metaphysical ideas.

no, because when we die that ends

 

[GarrotTheThief]

no, because when we die that ends

I don't know what happens when we die but I have faith it does end too and hope and pray it does.

- - - Updated - - -

no, because when we die that ends

But when I speak to the eternal nature of it I'm not alluding to it happening in any individual eternally, but as a fact of life, eternally, to all things living.

For example...I will go on and seize burning and feeling bliss, but all humans after me will, as long as they have nervous systems, will continue to experience it.

 

[miss fortune]

I don't know what happens when we die but I have faith it does end too and hope and pray it does.

- - - Updated - - -



But when I speak to the eternal nature of it I'm not alluding to it happening in any individual eternally, but as a fact of life, eternally, to all things living.

For example...I will go on and seize burning and feeling bliss, but all humans after me will, as long as they have nervous systems, will continue to experience it.

I was speaking of "when you die you will burn in hell forevermore and be aware of the feeling of your flesh searing on your bones because you are bad"

that's not something I would wish upon anyone

 

[SearchingforPeace]

There is "truth", the problem is one of perspective. We are limited based upon our experiences, our natures, and other factors. Like Rashoman with this accompanying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect, we don't see enough.

When it comes to religion and spirituality, I fear too many people limit themselves. They lock into a viewpoint and think there is nothing more.

In my experience, while I maintain my religion, I have added so much more to it, finding truths in philosophy, other religions, spirituality, etc. It isn't so much saying my religious tradition is wrong, as more that I can grow by accepting more knowledge.

So I have read things and pondering things from around world, taking in new ideas that give me greater understanding.

So, is there an absolute truth out there? I feel there is.

Do I know it all? No.

As such, do I respect others religions and spiritual ideas? Yes.

The goal is for everyone to find their path to growth and happiness.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

There is "truth", the problem is one of perspective. We are limited based upon our experiences, our natures, and other factors. Like Rashoman with this accompanying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect, we don't see enough.

When it comes to religion and spirituality, I fear too many people limit themselves. They lock into a viewpoint and think there is nothing more.

In my experience, while I maintain my religion, I have added so much more to it, finding truths in philosophy, other religions, spirituality, etc. It isn't so much saying my religious tradition is wrong, as more that I can grow by accepting more knowledge.

So I have read things and pondering things from around world, taking in new ideas that give me greater understanding.

So, is there an absolute truth out there? I feel there is.

Do I know it all? No.

As such, do I respect others religions and spiritual ideas? Yes.

The goal is for everyone to find their path to growth and happiness.

Well said. You have verbalized my own perspective which I have trouble communicating sometimes.

 

[SearchingforPeace]

Well said. You have verbalized my own perspective which I have trouble communicating sometimes.

Glad I could be of service.

 

[BadOctopus]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] If you realize that Hell, or "Sheol" as it is called in Hebrew, is usually translated as "the grave", then the Bible starts to make more sense.

Especially when it says that "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."

 

[miss fortune]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] If you realize that Hell, or "Sheol" as it is called in Hebrew, is usually translated as "the grave", then the Bible starts to make more sense.

Especially when it says that "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."

and I really wish that more people would look into the root of things!

the problem is, no matter how much I am aware that death is death and when you die you are dead, there's still that paranoia left over from childhood just waiting in the shadows... the evolution of the concept of Hell throughout the ages is quite disturbing (even when you know the reasons behind it... social control and such). Like the movie In Bruges when Ray keeps getting haunted by Bosch paintings of Hell when he's already feeling guilty in a way

on another note, Diyu and Naraka also are kind of creepy...

 

[EcK]

There is "truth", the problem is one of perspective. We are limited based upon our experiences, our natures, and other factors. Like Rashoman with this accompanying https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rashomon_effect, we don't see enough.

When it comes to religion and spirituality, I fear too many people limit themselves. They lock into a viewpoint and think there is nothing more.

In my experience, while I maintain my religion, I have added so much more to it, finding truths in philosophy, other religions, spirituality, etc. It isn't so much saying my religious tradition is wrong, as more that I can grow by accepting more knowledge.

So I have read things and pondering things from around world, taking in new ideas that give me greater understanding.

So, is there an absolute truth out there? I feel there is.

Do I know it all? No.

As such, do I respect others religions and spiritual ideas? Yes.

The goal is for everyone to find their path to growth and happiness.

We can't all be right.
Yes there are different perspectives but religions make very definite statements about the nature of the universe.
If a religious book describes the earth as flat and the knowledge is coming from an absolute truthful being. Then at least some of the assertions HAVE to be wrong.

If prayer works in curing people then why is there no statistical evidence of it what so ever? Etc.
It's too easy to say something is right despite all the evidence to the contrary and lack of evidence of about everything else it claims.

How NICE it would be to have something be true, however, has no incidence on how true it is.

Also keep in mind that alot of religions make anyone who 'adds to it' at will 'a heretic that should go to hell'. So having your 'own views and practices' is pretty much not ok. Though that varies.

 

[BadOctopus]

and I really wish that more people would look into the root of things!

the problem is, no matter how much I am aware that death is death and when you die you are dead, there's still that paranoia left over from childhood just waiting in the shadows... the evolution of the concept of Hell throughout the ages is quite disturbing (even when you know the reasons behind it... social control and such). Like the movie In Bruges when Ray keeps getting haunted by Bosch paintings of Hell when he's already feeling guilty in a way

on another note, Diyu and Naraka also are kind of creepy...

Ugh, those Bosch paintings are so gross.

This may come as a surprise to most of the forum, but I actually believe in intelligent design. I don't claim to know who or what it is, but it seems evident in everything around us. In all my studies of the complexity and precision of the universe, I just can't conclude that it all came about accidentally. It just seems... presumptuous somehow. But I don't talk about it much, because atheists can be as dogmatic as the most extreme religious zealots.

I've also read the Bible. I find it fascinating as a piece of human history. Whether or not it's divinely inspired, I don't know. But from what I've read, Hell does not seem to be a Bible teaching. It says that the day you die, your thoughts perish, and that "the dead know not anything." Basically, you return to the same state of nonexistence you were in before you were born.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

[MENTION=1180]whatever[/MENTION] If you realize that Hell, or "Sheol" as it is called in Hebrew, is usually translated as "the grave", then the Bible starts to make more sense.

Especially when it says that "there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, whither thou goest."

Yeah but the idea of a grave is not exclusive to a literal death. Symbolically speaking we go to our graves or we send things to their graves when they end.

Its connotation is as important as its denotation.

In the trump card of Judgement we call things from their graves, things we ended, to use wisdom and discernment to chose what to recombine within ourselves.

When we give birth, it feels like we are going to our grave - 9 months of pain and suffering, but really we are just ending a stage and beginning a new one...

Death and Life are two polarities which allude to the beginning and ending and transformation of growth, and growth is best embodied by the living symbol of the tree.

 

[GarrotTheThief]

I'd like to add more about the grave, sheol, and hell.

In Tarot, the grave is where all those who are suffering on earth live and dwell as they live. This idea is built into hebrew since the tarot is derived from hebrew.

Why is it that some of us are living and some of us are in the grave? We are in the grave when we are bonded to our addictions or the lymbic system of the brain.

This system is what causes us to feel like we are in hell. We chain smoke and we get throat soars. We watch t.v. all day and feel like shit we get nothing done....as we are bonded to our reptilian modes of operation, we feel, on a level of primate or mammalian circuit a sense of hell.

Again, it boils down to sensation. Our bodies hold our habit patterns and our habit patterns determine if we experience life as hell or as heaven.

Esoteric, occult studies are not about metaphics or religion. They are about how the imagination, in a biological sense, is archetypally linked to the body.

 

[miss fortune]

Ugh, those Bosch paintings are so gross.

This may come as a surprise to most of the forum, but I actually believe in intelligent design. I don't claim to know who or what it is, but it seems evident in everything around us. In all my studies of the complexity and precision of the universe, I just can't conclude that it all came about accidentally. It just seems... presumptuous somehow. But I don't talk about it much, because atheists can be as dogmatic as the most extreme religious zealots.

I've also read the Bible. I find it fascinating as a piece of human history. Whether or not it's divinely inspired, I don't know. But from what I've read, Hell does not seem to be a Bible teaching. It says that the day you die, your thoughts perish, and that "the dead know not anything." Basically, you return to the same state of nonexistence you were in before you were born.

and yet I can never manage to look away from Bosch's paintings... there's one in our local art museum from his workshop and it's just this huge picture of people in hell and every time I walk into the room I'm stuck transfixed in horrible fascination by all of the naked people being horribly tortured and I'm never the only one stuck there... it has that effect on almost everyone in the room. People standing there with expressions of morbid intrigue for at least 5 minutes on average. It's like the concept is stuck in the most dark and awful corners of human consciousness and as appalling as it may seem it still draws us in. I've read a few different places that the concept of hell and the devil didn't arise until after the babylonian captivity when the jewish people came into contact with zorastarianism with it's dualistic concept of good and evil in an eternal battle... it's like once exposed to such a concept we can't look away... drawn at once by our horror to such a thing and our fascination with it as well.

I can understand why people believe in some aspects of Intelligent Design, as long as they don't go straight up with "and God plopped everything down on the earth just as it is now and made woman out of the rib of man"... the chances of things aligning just as they have so that the universe and life as we know it exist are very slim. And I can understand the belief that all things in the multiverse occur an infinite number of times, so the fact that we exist as we do just means that the right things just happened... and that somewhere else out there we may exist in duplicate as well because infinity is a gigantic number... though I tend towards the later belief, I can understand the former as well

At times I genuinely wonder if a good number of people who proclaim themselves Christians have actually read the Bible... I have and I just don't see a lot of the things that they say are laws or realities there. I'm also confused as to the pick and choose what laws to follow approach and the things that have been brought in throughout the years and have become a part of what is preached and believed and what isn't. It's a fascinating story with interesting characters and some very human struggles and I do have my favorite quotes and stories.

By the sweat of your brow you will eat your food until you return to the ground, since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return.... and that makes sense

 

[SearchingforPeace]

We can't all be right.
Yes there are different perspectives but religions make very definite statements about the nature of the universe.
If a religious book describes the earth as flat and the knowledge is coming from an absolute truthful being. Then at least some of the assertions HAVE to be wrong.

If prayer works in curing people then why is there no statistical evidence of it what so ever? Etc.
It's too easy to say something is right despite all the evidence to the contrary and lack of evidence of about everything else it claims.

How NICE it would be to have something be true, however, has no insidence on how true it is.

We could provide you with ample proof and you would likely doubt it. I get that. I adopted pure rationalist thinking at times in my youth. It was only in accepting uncertainty and understanding that this an irrational side to existence did I really start to learn.

You want evidence: here, believe or not.....

My adopted twins were born at 28 weeks, weighing less than 3 pounds. They had severe health problems. We were told that neither one was likely to survive to ever leave intensive care. And if they would come home, they would likely not last the year, and if they did they would be in wheelchairs and unable to speak. One son lost the ball on one leg and required hip surgery at when less than 7 pounds.

After a ton of fasting and prayers by myself, my extended family, and our congregation, fast forward 13 years. Their neurologist uses their case to teach med students that one in a million outcomes can happen, twice in the same family even. The orthopedic surgeon who recently did a final and minor correction to my one son's leg said his hip "miraculously" doesn't need surgery on the hip ever, even though we had been told he need surgery every 3 years for the rest of his life. She said you just can't explain some things.

So, while my sons have severe behavioral problems that are unresolved as of yet, their physical ailments are largely resolved. I have only given a partial story here.

They walk and talk largely as impossible outcomes. You can say random chance happened twice, but.....

I have had numerous other experiences as well, that have no rational explanations. That is OK.

There are things that are not seen that are also real. Here is an example in the field of education. I met a gentleman who worked as head of online education for a major university. He had spent his life in the field, studying the ins and outs of learning. We ended up talking for hours. He talked about the neuroscience of learning with numerous studies he could cite.

His conclusion was remarkable: The most hardworking, diligent, and dedicated online student will learn less long term than the hungover kid sleeping in class. There is something about being in the mere presence of another person that increases the ability to learn.

So, basically, there is an actual, but unseen connection that occurs. The idea that we are not alone and are connected to others is common in many religious and spiritual traditions.

I could go on and give more examples.

Again, our ability to see the entire truth is limited. But I want as much as I can handle....

 

[SD45T-2]

I've also read the Bible. I find it fascinating as a piece of human history. Whether or not it's divinely inspired, I don't know. But from what I've read, Hell does not seem to be a Bible teaching. It says that the day you die, your thoughts perish, and that "the dead know not anything." Basically, you return to the same state of nonexistence you were in before you were born.

The general understanding I was raised with is that hell basically boils down to a state of total and final separation from God. And I was intrigued by C. S. Lewis's idea that perhaps the door to hell is locked from the inside.

 

[Coriolis]

recognize the fact that I do have a code, but it is not Christianity... I view things a bit differently and through the lens of different experiences

This is an important point. Christianity is not the only moral code that leads to humane behavior, or even behavior very similar to what a Christian would say is "right".

When it comes to religion and spirituality, I fear too many people limit themselves. They lock into a viewpoint and think there is nothing more.

In my experience, while I maintain my religion, I have added so much more to it, finding truths in philosophy, other religions, spirituality, etc. It isn't so much saying my religious tradition is wrong, as more that I can grow by accepting more knowledge.

So I have read things and pondering things from around world, taking in new ideas that give me greater understanding.

So, is there an absolute truth out there? I feel there is.

Do I know it all? No.

As such, do I respect others religions and spiritual ideas? Yes.

The goal is for everyone to find their path to growth and happiness.

It is much like culture. Each of us is raised in some culture, perhaps a combination of cultures depending on where we live and who our parents are. In most cases, no one blames us for following our culture, and for preferring it to other cultures. On the other hand, most people don't go around claiming their culture is better than others, and many of us happily sample and learn from other cultures, whether through travel, language study, art/music, clothing/cuisine, etc.

When we give birth, it feels like we are going to our grave - 9 months of pain and suffering, but really we are just ending a stage and beginning a new one...

This idea is at once simple and profound, namely that every ending is a beginning, and every beginning an ending. (That's why graduations are called "commencement" in many places.) This also highlights the cyclical nature of existence.

We can't all be right.
Yes there are different perspectives but religions make very definite statements about the nature of the universe.
If a religious book describes the earth as flat and the knowledge is coming from an absolute truthful being. Then at least some of the assertions HAVE to be wrong.

We certainly can all be right, when dealing with subjective matters rather than objective matters like mathematics. Looking to religious texts for answers about the physical world makes about as much sense as consulting the poetry of Byron to figure out how to fix your computer. This is always a problem with religious texts. Too many people expect to find literal truth, while what they provide is a metaphorical truth that is much more profound, and multifaceted.

 

[Qlip]

This is pretty much what I think:

“Half the people in the world think that the metaphors of their religious traditions, for example, are facts. And the other half contends that they are not facts at all. As a result we have people who consider themselves believers because they accept metaphors as facts, and we have others who classify themselves as atheists because they think religious metaphors are lies.”
― Joseph Campbell, Thou Art That: Transforming Religious Metaphor

Religion is highly misunderstood, and it's actually very simple. People need more than facts to live their lives, they need examples and a lens through which to see the world. This is not something that the sciences can provide, and it's highly dangerous to think so, but there is inevitable overlap.

 

[miss fortune]

This is pretty much what I think:



Religion is highly misunderstood, and it's actually very simple. People need more than facts to live their lives, they need examples and a lens through which to see the world. This is not something that the sciences can provide, and it's highly dangerous to think so, but there is inevitable overlap.

makes me think of this... and then I have to be sad because he's dead

All right," said Susan, "I'm not stupid. You're saying humans need ... fantasies to make life bearable."
No. Humans need fantasy to be human. To be the place where the falling angel meet the rising ape.
"Tooth fairies? Hogfathers?"
Yes. As practice. You have to start out learning to believe the little lies.
"So we can believe the big ones?"
Yes. Justice. Duty. Mercy. That sort of thing.
"They're not the same at all!"
Really? Then take the universe and grind it down to the finest powder and sieve it through the finest sieve and then show me one atom of justice, one molecule of mercy. And yet you act, like there was some sort of rightness in the universe by which it may be judged:
"Yes. But people have got to believe that or what's the point?"
My point exactly.

from Hogfather, by Terry Pratchett

and why does copy-paste convert the all caps to normal font?! how is Death supposed to be adequately Death-y?!?!?