[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[IZthe411]

My Extroverted Cuz,

I just wanted to post to put you at 800. Congrats!!

I hope my ISTJ thread stays alive this long!

 

[EJCC]

Aw Thanks! I'm sure that your thread will stay alive that long. I mean, think about it. You have at least five ISTJs posting answers on there at a time (I think?), and here it's pretty much just me and Max. Y'all will do fine.

 

[Tamske]

...and here it's pretty much just me and Max.

... and a stray ENTP who can't stop herself from posting here

Question: how do you organize a successfull surprise party for an ESTJ?
Answer: make sure the ESTJ doesn't plan anything else for that day. Otherwise, even if your party is totally awesome, he'll feel frustrated because he can't do what he has planned. I've said to my ESTJ: "Don't plan anything for the third of July. I'll plan something for you."

Of course, now I have to plan something

 

[Max]

Haha, whether I had other plans or not, it would probably take me a while to adjust to the "This is good because it was brought about by people who really care about me" mentality from the "I wasn't ready for this!!!!" mentality. Haha, we really suck sometimes...

 

[EJCC]

Haha, whether I had other plans or not, it would probably take me a while to adjust to the "This is good because it was brought about by people who really care about me" mentality from the "I wasn't ready for this!!!!" mentality. Haha, we really suck sometimes...

So. Frickin. True.

"A surprise party??? But I was planning to... not have plans!"

 

[StephMC]

So... how do ESTJs handle break-ups? Good ones? Bad ones? What's the "ideal" scenario? I broke up with my ESTJ ex about 9 months ago and it's been an awkward ordeal. I have a tendency to want to stay friends with my exes but it's finally started to sink in that not everyone wants the same. Which is fine... I have no probably respecting people's wishes. I just wish we had at least a little more closure instead of ... well... the following series of events:
- me telling him it's not going to work out at this point in time because the long distance thing sucked and I didn't want to move
- have awkward, shallow conversations every week or so which usually consisted of his latest and greatest (the promotion, the raises, the apartment he bought, the trips he's taken... ) while I just silently listened.
- a "friend" of mine telling him about the guy I'm dating before I had a chance to tell him
- me taking a trip to NYC (where he lives) with my sister and him thinking I was going to visit him This resulted in a blow up fight after he realized I wasn't going to visit him and rekindle our relationship and about the guy I was dating.

Argh. Anyways, after that trip he said he couldn't be friends with me if I was dating other people. I said I could respect that but I would prefer him not continuing being buddy buddy with my friends and family.. especially after that whole him finding out about the guy I was dating disaster. So we haven't talked in 2 months. I feel like I left ends untied everywhere, which I'm sure is the same for him he's just too stubborn to tell me, but have no idea what to do about. Sigh. Any words of wisdom?

 

[EJCC]

So... how do ESTJs handle break-ups? Good ones? Bad ones? What's the "ideal" scenario? I broke up with my ESTJ ex about 9 months ago and it's been an awkward ordeal. I have a tendency to want to stay friends with my exes but it's finally started to sink in that not everyone wants the same. Which is fine... I have no probably respecting people's wishes. I just wish we had at least a little more closure instead of ... well... the following series of events:
- me telling him it's not going to work out at this point in time because the long distance thing sucked and I didn't want to move
- have awkward, shallow conversations every week or so which usually consisted of his latest and greatest (the promotion, the raises, the apartment he bought, the trips he's taken... ) while I just silently listened.
- a "friend" of mine telling him about the guy I'm dating before I had a chance to tell him
- me taking a trip to NYC (where he lives) with my sister and him thinking I was going to visit him This resulted in a blow up fight after he realized I wasn't going to visit him and rekindle our relationship and about the guy I was dating.

Argh. Anyways, after that trip he said he couldn't be friends with me if I was dating other people. I said I could respect that but I would prefer him not continuing being buddy buddy with my friends and family.. especially after that whole him finding out about the guy I was dating disaster. So we haven't talked in 2 months. I feel like I left ends untied everywhere, which I'm sure is the same for him he's just too stubborn to tell me, but have no idea what to do about. Sigh. Any words of wisdom?

First wise word: Jeez! But seriously, that's gotta be uncomfortable. I apologize on behalf of my type, especially since I'm usually the one causing the awkwardness in situations like that...

I'll answer the first part of your question first, by listing some types of ESTJ breakups:

1. ESTJ breaks up with partner, and partner takes it okay or poorly. ESTJ reaction: "This is awkward. I don't want to have to deal with my ex's emotions, so I'll avoid him/her and hope they go away." I've done this a few times
2. Partner breaks up with ESTJ, and ESTJ takes it poorly, and wallows in emo self-pity. Later interactions with ex = awkward, because of all the pain the ESTJ experienced as a result. The awkwardness may not be visible, since the ESTJ may still be friendly in a platonic way, hoping to disguise the fact that they're still wounded. (This hasn't happened to me, but I got "dumped" horribly by my best friend of nine years, and my reaction was similar.) They may act this way for years and years towards the ex - at least, until the ex apologizes or there's some form of closure, which there probably won't be unless the ex initiates it.
3. One breaks up with the other, and they're both perfectly fine with it, and can simply be friends afterwards, with no one feeling bad because it was mutual and amiable. This is the ideal breakup for an ESTJ.
4. Partner breaks up with ESTJ, but ESTJ still has feelings for partner. Shares many qualities with #2. This, I believe, is what's going on with you and your ex, Steph.

The fact that he couldn't remain friends with you because of your dating other people, and the fact that he was hoping that you would rekindle your relationship, all point to the idea that he either still wants to be with you, or is conflicted about it. In terms of tying up loose ends, I guess I'd recommend talking to him about it, and initiating definite, blunt closure. That'll help a lot, so even though it'll still be awkward, it won't be as much so once he gets over you and finds another girl.

Hope that helped...

 

[Tamske]

Haha, whether I had other plans or not, it would probably take me a while to adjust to the "This is good because it was brought about by people who really care about me" mentality from the "I wasn't ready for this!!!!" mentality. Haha, we really suck sometimes...

He has got more than one and a half of a month to get ready for it. Isn't that enough?
He knows I'm organizing *something* for him on *that day*.

 

[sculpting]

So. Frickin. True.

"A surprise party??? But I was planning to... not have plans!"

Yes! I so understand this.

 

[StephMC]

First wise word: Jeez! But seriously, that's gotta be uncomfortable. I apologize on behalf of my type, especially since I'm usually the one causing the awkwardness in situations like that...

I'll answer the first part of your question first, by listing some types of ESTJ breakups:

1. ESTJ breaks up with partner, and partner takes it okay or poorly. ESTJ reaction: "This is awkward. I don't want to have to deal with my ex's emotions, so I'll avoid him/her and hope they go away." I've done this a few times
2. Partner breaks up with ESTJ, and ESTJ takes it poorly, and wallows in emo self-pity. Later interactions with ex = awkward, because of all the pain the ESTJ experienced as a result. The awkwardness may not be visible, since the ESTJ may still be friendly in a platonic way, hoping to disguise the fact that they're still wounded. (This hasn't happened to me, but I got "dumped" horribly by my best friend of nine years, and my reaction was similar.) They may act this way for years and years towards the ex - at least, until the ex apologizes or there's some form of closure, which there probably won't be unless the ex initiates it.
3. One breaks up with the other, and they're both perfectly fine with it, and can simply be friends afterwards, with no one feeling bad because it was mutual and amiable. This is the ideal breakup for an ESTJ.
4. Partner breaks up with ESTJ, but ESTJ still has feelings for partner. Shares many qualities with #2. This, I believe, is what's going on with you and your ex, Steph.

The fact that he couldn't remain friends with you because of your dating other people, and the fact that he was hoping that you would rekindle your relationship, all point to the idea that he either still wants to be with you, or is conflicted about it. In terms of tying up loose ends, I guess I'd recommend talking to him about it, and initiating definite, blunt closure. That'll help a lot, so even though it'll still be awkward, it won't be as much so once he gets over you and finds another girl.

Hope that helped...

Ah, yes, that definitely helped! Thanks! I swear, after we started going our different ways he became a -very- different person than I was used to, so it's really nice to hear reason from a rational ESTJ again Is that a common response if an ESTJ feels "rejected" (I say this because every time he got worked up he said he wasn't used to feeling "rejected")? It was like a split personality... he became argumentative, belligerent, somewhat boastful and arrogant... almost everything he wasn't before (or I'm starting to wonder if it's "everything he didn't want me to see before" ). Anyways, you're right, I need to initiate some real closure. I've tried before but it never ended well. I think I was pushing for it too soon, though. Maybe after enough time without contact allowed for both of us to get some perspective so we can talk like rational people again. In fact, that's what I liked most about our relationship... we didn't "fight." We would converse.. without anyone getting worked up. Not the case anymore, but hopefully it will be again.

 

[EJCC]

Ah, yes, that definitely helped! Thanks! I swear, after we started going our different ways he became a -very- different person than I was used to, so it's really nice to hear reason from a rational ESTJ again

"Rational ESTJ"... Compliment of the day! Thanks!

Is that a common response if an ESTJ feels "rejected" (I say this because every time he got worked up he said he wasn't used to feeling "rejected")? It was like a split personality... he became argumentative, belligerent, somewhat boastful and arrogant... almost everything he wasn't before (or I'm starting to wonder if it's "everything he didn't want me to see before" ).

I think it's pretty typical of anyone to feel very hurt when someone breaks up with them, but ESTJs aren't generally the type to "play the victim", and what you're describing sounds like how ESTJs generally act when they get hurt, i.e. angry and self-assured on the outside, wallowing in sad, insecure emotions on the inside. Definitely not a split personality, and definitely not a side of him that he was hiding from you. Generally, with ESTJs, what you see is what you get, so you can be sure that he either rarely or never faked anything with you. At least, until now, since he's hiding his vulnerability, and, presumably, his lingering affection for you.

Anyways, you're right, I need to initiate some real closure. I've tried before but it never ended well. I think I was pushing for it too soon, though. Maybe after enough time without contact allowed for both of us to get some perspective so we can talk like rational people again. In fact, that's what I liked most about our relationship... we didn't "fight." We would converse.. without anyone getting worked up. Not the case anymore, but hopefully it will be again.

That should definitely help. I think that what'll really make things better again, besides closure from you, is time for him to get over it and forgive you. Honestly, anything that can't be solved with closure that you initiate is his problem, so if it doesn't end up working out, you are not to blame.

Again, not sure if that will fix everything, but there's a good chance. Thanks for the question, and good luck!

 

[Tamske]

These are nice insights, but I do hope I'll never need them!

The discussion at the (now again somewhat active) "ask an ENTP" thread makes me want to ask another question here.

How do you cope with "real work" versus "appearance of working"?
Yesterday, I was supposed to be at school, not to teach but to prepare for an "open school day". Apparently, this meant "teachers standing together discussing about who would be getting a job next year and complaining about the unfairness in the system allocating jobs to teachers."
If you looked from the door, this really looked like "serious business being done", while, as you see, no work is being done.
I went away (which would probably land me some bad reputation) and found dishes to be done, so I happily started on them. Another teacher came and helped. For some reason, the talk turned to quantum mechanics and relativity theory. I explained how they worked, the other teacher kept on asking questions, and I had a very good time. Real work was being done, but it didn't appear like working because we were laughing and making gestures (meaning things like "electron on speed") all the time.

My husband absolutely hates company meetings, especially if it's only about mission statements or the colour they have to use on their slideshows.

How do you cope with it? What if all your colleages are on the "appear working" track and you don't want to? If you have to supervise people, how would you discern between the two? How would you convince your supervisor that, in fact, you did work?

 

[EJCC]

These are nice insights, but I do hope I'll never need them!

The discussion at the (now again somewhat active) "ask an ENTP" thread makes me want to ask another question here.

How do you cope with "real work" versus "appearance of working"?
Yesterday, I was supposed to be at school, not to teach but to prepare for an "open school day". Apparently, this meant "teachers standing together discussing about who would be getting a job next year and complaining about the unfairness in the system allocating jobs to teachers."
If you looked from the door, this really looked like "serious business being done", while, as you see, no work is being done.
I went away (which would probably land me some bad reputation) and found dishes to be done, so I happily started on them. Another teacher came and helped. For some reason, the talk turned to quantum mechanics and relativity theory. I explained how they worked, the other teacher kept on asking questions, and I had a very good time. Real work was being done, but it didn't appear like working because we were laughing and making gestures (meaning things like "electron on speed") all the time.

My husband absolutely hates company meetings, especially if it's only about mission statements or the colour they have to use on their slideshows.

How do you cope with it? What if all your colleages are on the "appear working" track and you don't want to? If you have to supervise people, how would you discern between the two? How would you convince your supervisor that, in fact, you did work?

I really hate the "appearing to work" behaviors that you're describing. I'd much rather that they cut the BS and actually get something done. I get especially frustrated when people bitch at me about a problem, without actually showing any interest in getting it done (which is similar to the "open school day" prep that you were describing earlier).

How I'd know whether the people I'm supervising were appearing to work or actually working would be thus: I know what working is supposed to look like, and I have a subconscious list of what behaviors are "work" and which aren't. If I see what someone is doing, and it's on my internal list of "productive" things, then I'll leave them to it, regardless of their mood or conversations as they work (that is, as long as I know that the conversations won't get in the way of their productivity). In other words, I would have been totally fine with your washing the dishes with the other teachers. However, I would have listened to the conversations of the chatting people at the "open school day" prep and noticed that they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing, so I would have gone up to them and told them that they needed to actually be planning, instead of complaining.

 

[sculpting]

I really hate the "appearing to work" behaviors that you're describing. I'd much rather that they cut the BS and actually get something done. I get especially frustrated when people bitch at me about a problem, without actually showing any interest in getting it done (which is similar to the "open school day" prep that you were describing earlier).

How I'd know whether the people I'm supervising were appearing to work or actually working would be thus: I know what working is supposed to look like, and I have a subconscious list of what behaviors are "work" and which aren't. If I see what someone is doing, and it's on my internal list of "productive" things, then I'll leave them to it, regardless of their mood or conversations as they work (that is, as long as I know that the conversations won't get in the way of their productivity). In other words, I would have been totally fine with your washing the dishes with the other teachers. However, I would have listened to the conversations of the chatting people at the "open school day" prep and noticed that they weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing, so I would have gone up to them and told them that they needed to actually be planning, instead of complaining.

Hi E,

My entp best friend I work with and I have noticed a weird trend among ISTJs-they first need to explain what is bothering them about a situation, need to make sure someone validates that complaint, then they will formulate a plan to solve the problem. It sounds a little bit like the bitch sessions Tamske mentioned above. I think in reality-they want to make sure painful mistakes made in the past dont get repeated again in the future-thus the affirmation really is more mutual acknowledgment of a past screw-up, then formation of a new plan that doesnt repeat the past.

The ISTJ behavior drives my entp insane, while instead I will quickly affirm, validate, then push them all to begin planning a new way forward. ( I do adore them but they are all kinda depressed right now, so I try and cut them a little slack.)

So my question-it doesnt sound like an ESTJ needs this external affirmation of mistakes messed up in the past? How do you make sure that a group is not overly optimistic or ignoring mistakes from the past? Do you have a lessons learned approach to start the meeting? If you note someone ignoring lessons from the past would you call them out?

(also a thing I have noted from my two estj bosses-they found me a bit bizarre as I never appear to be working-yet would deliver without a problem. After a few rounds of this I sort of got a mental tag in their minds of "That one is weird, but just leave it alone and it produces" even though I appear to be anti-productive)

 

[EJCC]

Hi E,

My entp best friend I work with and I have noticed a weird trend among ISTJs-they first need to explain what is bothering them about a situation, need to make sure someone validates that complaint, then they will formulate a plan to solve the problem. It sounds a little bit like the bitch sessions Tamske mentioned above. I think in reality-they want to make sure painful mistakes made in the past dont get repeated again in the future-thus the affirmation really is more mutual acknowledgment of a past screw-up, then formation of a new plan that doesnt repeat the past.

The ISTJ behavior drives my entp insane, while instead I will quickly affirm, validate, then push them all to begin planning a new way forward. ( I do adore them but they are all kinda depressed right now, so I try and cut them a little slack.)

So my question-it doesnt sound like an ESTJ needs this external affirmation of mistakes messed up in the past? How do you make sure that a group is not overly optimistic or ignoring mistakes from the past? Do you have a lessons learned approach to start the meeting? If you note someone ignoring lessons from the past would you call them out?

I actually do that too - i.e. what the ISTJs you were describing are doing. But for me, I only do that to a minimum, because, like you said, it's a means to an end. Instead of venting purely for catharsis (as so many types do), it's to get a second opinion, because my venting inevitably ends with "...but THIS is how it SHOULD be done!!!" And if the person I'm venting at (who is always someone I trust for advice; I pick my vent-ees carefully) tells me I'm overreacting, then I'll try to change my attitude. And otherwise, I'll plan accordingly.

The reason why that sort of behavior doesn't bug me, when the venting sessions that Tamske was describing DO bug me, is because my venting is part of the problem-solving process, and theirs doesn't actually DO anything.

(also a thing I have noted from my two estj bosses-they found me a bit bizarre as I never appear to be working-yet would deliver without a problem. After a few rounds of this I sort of got a mental tag in their minds of "That one is weird, but just leave it alone and it produces" even though I appear to be anti-productive)

+1. That's exactly how I am, to a T, especially with my odd-duck ENTP friend and her equally odd INFJ boyfriend. I used to nag them about things (because I care), and then I realized how trustworthy they are, despite their methodology being different.

 

[Rainne]

hi ESTJs

do you relate to discarded, broken things and keep them because you believe that someday you'll have a 'use' for it?

 

[EJCC]

hi ESTJs

do you relate to discarded, broken things and keep them because you believe that someday you'll have a 'use' for it?

In my case: rarely. And when I do, it's not out of pity, or relating to the object. It's usually because of a spark of Ne - i.e, a sort of "Hey, that looks like something I could make something out of! If I repaired the bottom, it would make a really nice pencil holder..." But the difference is that, instead of keeping it in the hopes that someday something could be done with it, I keep it with a particular project or set of ideas in mind, and usually I end up doing what I wanted to do with it.

A relevant (but not entirely the same as what I just described) anecdote: My mom had a stash of unused wooden chinese-food-takeout chopsticks that she was thinking about throwing away. I thought: "What a waste. Those could be used for something." And I promptly looked up "Chopstick craft projects" on Google, and found a project: Coasters. And then, a couple of days later, I made them.

 

[Tamske]

This discussion makes me want to create an ESTJ-English dictionary.

ESTJ - English
"I planned your whole day for you" -> "I love you"
"You need to finish that big project by next month" -> "I trust you"
"Why don't you do it the normal way?" -> "I'm concerned that you mess up"
"There is a chocolate duck sitting on the window sill" -> "I'm totally at ease with you and you're seeing my Ne at work"

 

[EJCC]

This discussion makes me want to create an ESTJ-English dictionary.

ESTJ - English
"I planned your whole day for you" -> "I love you"
"You need to finish that big project by next month" -> "I trust you"
"Why don't you do it the normal way?" -> "I'm concerned that you mess up"
"There is a chocolate duck sitting on the window sill" -> "I'm totally at ease with you and you're seeing my Ne at work"

I love it!

I'll pitch in with an alternate translation for #3:
"Why don't you do it the normal way?" -> "Your methods, though 'wrong', nonetheless intrigue me. Make your case, and I might change my mind about them being wrong."

 

[EJCC]

Illustrative example of an ESTJ in a fun-ish mood:

TypeC Video #2 (the cooler one) on Vimeo