[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

Ok... does anyone else have questions, be they silly or serious?

 

[Tamske]

Silly questions on the "Ask an ESTJ" thread?

Why did the ESTJ cross the road?
Have you seen my Te? It's a small one, and I've lost it on the train together with my writing booklet. Oh, and more importantly: have you seen my writing booklet?

Well, you asked for it...

Seriously now. Yesterday I managed to not do everything I said I'd do; including getting the weeds in the garden under control, getting food,... and I even didn't have an excuse like "absorbed by writing" because I didn't write that much either. How do I get back into the grace of my ESTJ?

 

[EJCC]

Silly questions on the "Ask an ESTJ" thread?

Why did the ESTJ cross the road?

To cross it off her To-Do list

Have you seen my Te? It's a small one, and I've lost it on the train together with my writing booklet. Oh, and more importantly: have you seen my writing booklet?

It's sitting up on top of your head, with your glasses that you've been missing, taking notes on everything being done "wrong"... Better get it quick before it starts to irritate people!

Well, you asked for it...

Yup, I did! And I'm glad I did Relaxing fluff can be a good thing.

Seriously now. Yesterday I managed to not do everything I said I'd do; including getting the weeds in the garden under control, getting food,... and I even didn't have an excuse like "absorbed by writing" because I didn't write that much either. How do I get back into the grace of my ESTJ?

Simple - get all that stuff done! As long as it gets done, it's okay if it's a day late. If I were your ESTJ, I wouldn't think it was a big deal. Getting it done late and seeming like you're very sorry would be enough, knowing that you're not the most organized type - after all, you're doing your best

 

[Tamske]

To cross it off her To-Do list

That's actually one of the better "why cross road" jokes. Let's add it to the type jokes thread.

It's sitting up on top of your head, with your glasses that you've been missing, taking notes on everything being done "wrong"... Better get it quick before it starts to irritate people!

Thanks, but... glasses? I've never worn glasses! What is my Te doing with glasses?
*puts Te back in head and gives imaginary glasses to Ne*

Simple - get all that stuff done! As long as it gets done, it's okay if it's a day late. If I were your ESTJ, I wouldn't think it was a big deal. Getting it done late and seeming like you're very sorry would be enough, knowing that you're not the most organized type - after all, you're doing your best

Yeah, sounds a good plan. Right now I'm finishing some course documents for my students, because tomorrow is the last day I can get copies at school without too much trouble. (See, you did find my Te!)

 

[sculpting]

hello EDCC,

Does this sound correct-because you lead with Te, you will make a decision fairly quickly based upon what you know to be true-Si-rather than waiting for new input?

How does this work in meetings when new ideas under discussion? I guess-how do you refrain from producing a decision before taking in all the data? Also how do you know if you may not have enough data?

How would you deal with an Fe user he was not completing tasks and requirements? Would you confront them directly? Would you go to their manager? How would you track lack of performance to provide evidence?

If you have to identify a person/group that is not meeting expectations, would you do so openly or go through a heirachal structure? If via the ordained hierchy, what if your efforts did not achieve resolution? Would you go to the next level-even if it meant skipping your boss?

Thanks!!!

 

[EJCC]

Does this sound correct-because you lead with Te, you will make a decision fairly quickly based upon what you know to be true-Si-rather than waiting for new input?

That sounds about right. I'll only wait for input if I'm uncertain. But if I'm certain, then I'll go right ahead and do it. I guess, generally, I only want just enough information to get the job done, and I don't want to waste time by gathering unnecessary information first. (This bugs me sometimes with the INTPs I know, but it also bugs the INTPs I know when I make decisions like that.)

How does this work in meetings when new ideas under discussion? I guess-how do you refrain from producing a decision before taking in all the data? Also how do you know if you may not have enough data?

I hate making decisions without enough information - specifically, without some sort of precedent. I freeze up and get very indecisive if I'm forced to make a decision and have no idea how it may have been made in the past. That's when I ask for advice, usually. But to answer your question more specifically, I feel like I have enough information when I feel like I'm capable of making an educated decision. Usually I'll make a decision off the minimum amount necessary, as I mentioned before, but in meetings, if someone were to protest and say that we don't have enough information yet, I wouldn't shut them down. I'd be exasperated, but I'd go along with it, because in the end, I do want the decision to be made in the best way possible. I'd just rather that the decision be quick, too, and without unnecessary chatter.

How would you deal with an Fe user he was not completing tasks and requirements? Would you confront them directly? Would you go to their manager? How would you track lack of performance to provide evidence?

Contrary to stereotypes, I don't always go the blunt, direct way first. In situations like these, where I might actually hurt someone's feelings, I usually go to someone with influence first - someone whose responsibility it is to keep these people in line. Oops! So scratch that first sentence - I'm still being blunt, but not with the person who's been doing the most wrong. I would probably go to their manager and say something like this: "Your employee, _____, hasn't been doing all the work that he/she was supposed to be doing. I have noticed that he/she, during work, has been playing computer games for hours each day - hours that we pay him/her for working! I wouldn't be butting in like this, but it's seriously getting in the way of productivity, and I thought you should know."
I probably wouldn't provide evidence unless it was easy to access, because people know from as soon as they meet me that I'm honest and trustworthy, and when I've done things like that in the past, no one has questioned me.

But that's only if I were an outside party. If I were the slacker's manager, it wouldn't matter what functions they used more prominently, since I generally confront everyone the same way, if they aren't doing what they're supposed to be doing. Although, if I think they're capable of taking blunter criticism, I'll do that, and I won't cushion it at all (as I usually do). Otherwise, I will probably have noticed that they're a little more sensitive, so even though I'll confront them directly, I'll be nicer about it.

If you have to identify a person/group that is not meeting expectations, would you do so openly or go through a heirachal structure? If via the ordained hierchy, what if your efforts did not achieve resolution? Would you go to the next level-even if it meant skipping your boss?

See above - I would go through the structure first. And if that didn't work, I would probably go directly to the person/group, since the higher up in the organization you go, the less likely people are to know or care about specific individuals in the lower ranks. But I'd still go higher if necessary, even if it meant bending (if not breaking) precedent.

Those were great questions! Thanks!

 

[EJCC]

Question for other ESTJs: Do you ever get mad at people for making you upset? To clarify on what I mean by that, I'll give an example. If the TV isn't working, and someone I'm watching TV with gets openly worried/upset by that, I'll suddenly feel very angry at them, and I think it's because my subconscious is saying "Stop trying to make me worried by being worried! I want to stay safely objective!!!"

 

[Fidelia]

I burst out laughing when I heard that. There is nothing I know of that bugs the ESTJs I know as much as someone around them being in turmoil or being upset. It upsets their world, thereby making it less predictable and it also makes them feel uncomfortable emotions that they would prefer not to experience, much less process. Initially the ESTJ response is kind of reassuring that "shhh, it's going to be alright" along with the "I'm taking care of things and I'm competent" vibe. Then you realize it's more because they are so uncomfortable with your discomfort and it sometimes can feel like they'd be happy just as long as you never express any of what's bothering you.

How would you suggest a non-ESTJ best handle this unfortunate dynamic?

I also remember my ESTJ expressing confusion over my response to a frustrating and hopeless feeling university situation over the only paper that was keeping me from getting my Master's. He could not understand sadness/dread/sick feelings as a response and said, "I get ANGRY when stuff like that happens and that fuels me to MAKE whatever needs to happen come about". Do you think that anger is perhaps a knee-jerk response to vulnerable emotions?

 

[Tamske]

Question for other ESTJs: Do you ever get mad at people for making you upset? To clarify on what I mean by that, I'll give an example. If the TV isn't working, and someone I'm watching TV with gets openly worried/upset by that, I'll suddenly feel very angry at them, and I think it's because my subconscious is saying "Stop trying to make me worried by being worried! I want to stay safely objective!!!"

Being upset by the fact that you are upset? Yeah... I've known my husband saying "I'm so sorry for being emotional." - his uncle had died, but there he was worrying about upsetting me by being emotional and out of his normal doing.

How would you suggest a non-ESTJ best handle this unfortunate dynamic?

Leave the ESTJ alone for a while, so that he can compose himself. After that, you can ask what's wrong, but not at the moment he's out his normal doing.

 

[Fidelia]

I can see leaving the ESTJ alone when they are upset. (Although I've noticed that if it can't be resolved right away, this may lead to extended terseness and brooding alone). However, when someone else is the upset one and the ESTJ is just upset that they're upset, that's where it breaks down for me. Some things you can't just make go away, and sometimes you need to walk through the middle of something rather than going miles out of your way around it and pretending it's not there.

 

[EJCC]

I burst out laughing when I heard that. There is nothing I know of that bugs the ESTJs I know as much as someone around them being in turmoil or being upset. It upsets their world, thereby making it less predictable and it also makes them feel uncomfortable emotions that they would prefer not to experience, much less process. Initially the ESTJ response is kind of reassuring that "shhh, it's going to be alright" along with the "I'm taking care of things and I'm competent" vibe. Then you realize it's more because they are so uncomfortable with your discomfort and it sometimes can feel like they'd be happy just as long as you never express any of what's bothering you.

How would you suggest a non-ESTJ best handle this unfortunate dynamic?

I have problems with that sort of conflict with my INFJ mom, because she'll often come home and want to vent about this horrible thing that's been happening, and she'll make it sound hopeless and tragic, and I'll get mad and I'll think "I don't want to feel powerless and upset, so stop telling me about sad things that I can't help you fix!" Sometimes I'm so emotionally affected by it that I get irrational and feel like she's intentionally "playing the victim" just to make it more difficult to solve the problem. And I think it's because of this view/mindset that ESTJs generally, from my experience, don't vent about things unless it's funny venting. Everything else will be an objective update, so there won't be emotional involvement.

I guess, in order to deal with that, it would be helpful to either 1. hold the emotion in (if it's a minor event, like the TV thing I mentioned), or 2. help put the ESTJ in an objective position, mentally. I think the best way to do that, for me, would be to ask me for advice on something, instead of just venting. Part of why I get mad when people make me upset is because most things I get upset about, I get upset about because I feel like there's an injustice going on and there's nothing I can do to change it. Making the ESTJ feel like they can be of some help might be good - that is, if they actually CAN be of help. I'm not suggesting that you pretend anything. If they can't be of any help, maybe you could be blunt with them and say that you just want their support in your tough time, and that you're feeling upset because of a bad situation (but not going into all the gory details), and that way the ESTJ can play the safe role of protective loved one, and they don't have to, you know, FEEL anything

I also remember my ESTJ expressing confusion over my response to a frustrating and hopeless feeling university situation over the only paper that was keeping me from getting my Master's. He could not understand sadness/dread/sick feelings as a response and said, "I get ANGRY when stuff like that happens and that fuels me to MAKE whatever needs to happen come about". Do you think that anger is perhaps a knee-jerk response to vulnerable emotions?

I think it's more Te, i.e. seeing a problem that needs solving and immediately moving to fix it. There's kind of a mindset of "Why would you want to mope, when it would make so much more sense to just solve the problem?" So I guess, in a way, it is avoiding vulnerable emotions, but it's also that git-r-done ESTJ attitude hard at work

 

[EJCC]

Being upset by the fact that you are upset? Yeah... I've known my husband saying "I'm so sorry for being emotional." - his uncle had died, but there he was worrying about upsetting me by being emotional and out of his normal doing.

I definitely do that... I think it's out of a worry that I'll cause the uncomfortable emotions I mentioned in my above post, in other people. I don't want to be like that.

 

[Fidelia]

Holding it in on small things is something I'm quite good at. I don't get upset easily.

On the other hand, I have very few people that I would trust to share the things with that really bother me, so it feels extremely rejecting when the other person basically says in one way or another that they don't want to hear about it. Most people only get the generically nice version of me, so when I show more and have it turned away, it results in having to wall off bigger and bigger parts of my life which are essential to who I am, what I think about and how I spend my time. And yet, if I'm going to be authentic with someone and feel close to them, I have to share some part of who I really am, rather than just the easy nice stuff.

INFJs mostly do their problem solving by venting off the excess and using the other person as a sounding board. It is only in expressing it out loud that we are able to clarify things and then move onto a solution. In fact, it even sparks ideas, kind of like how House uses his team to inspire his own thinking. Would it be helpful to explain to the ESTJ that they are doing a grand service just by listening and performing that function for us and that there are actually very few people we would trust to serve in that role? Or would it still mostly just be a frustrating burden that seems a lot like whining or expecting the ESTJ to accomplish the impossible?

Over time, I found that it was the cold RESPONSE to my wish to be authentic that was creating the negative emotions in me that he found upsetting and there just didn't seem to be any workable solution. It was like a feedback loop that just kept getting worse. I'm sure if I had understood him better at the time it would have helped me look for some more solutions, but even now I'm not sure what would have been win-win.

 

[EJCC]

Holding it in on small things is something I'm quite good at. I don't get upset easily.

On the other hand, I have very few people that I would trust to share the things that really to bother me with, so it feels extremely rejecting when the other person basically says in one way or another that they don't want to hear about it. Most people only get the generically nice version of me, so when I show more and have it turned away, it results in having to wall off bigger and bigger parts of my life which are essential to who I am, what I think about and how I spend my time. And yet, if I'm going to be authentic with someone and feel close to them, I have to share some part of who I really am, rather than just the easy nice stuff.

The bold might be a good thing to share with ESTJs. When I end up as someone's emotional sounding board, I often feel like I'm being thanklessly used by them. I think a lot of my frustration with my mom doing that with me would be taken away if she acknowledged what I do for her. But that could be my enneagram talking, and not my MBTI.

INFJs mostly do their problem solving by venting off the excess and using the other person as a sounding board. It is only in expressing it out loud that we are able to clarify things and then move onto a solution. In fact, it even sparks ideas, kind of like how House uses his team to inspire his own thinking. Would it be helpful to explain to the ESTJ that they are doing a grand service just by listening and performing that function for us and that there are actually very few people we would trust to serve in that role? Or would it still mostly just be a frustrating burden that seems a lot like whining or expecting the ESTJ to accomplish the impossible?

This is what my mom did with my INTP dad. She told him, every single time she would vent as problem solving, that she wasn't asking for his advice and she just needed someone to listen and be sympathetic. It's still hard for him sometimes, but he's a lot better at that now. I think she assumes that I don't need that comment since I don't try to give her advice when she vents, but I think I do. So, that probably would be a good idea - that is, saying exactly what you just posted. Also, as I mentioned before, it helps the ESTJ if you tell them that you appreciate what they're doing, in being a sounding board and a supportive ear.

Over time, I found that it was the cold RESPONSE to my wish to be authentic that was creating the negative emotions that he found upsetting and there just didn't seem to be any workable solution. It was like a feedback loop that just kept getting worse. I'm sure if I had understood him better at the time it would have helped me look for some more solutions, but even now I'm not sure what would have been win-win.

Based on what you've told me in the past about your relationship with him, it sounds like that wasn't the only factor in the split. So, even if that particular communication breakdown was solved, I wouldn't beat yourself up about it.

 

[Fidelia]

That is most helpful! So it's not only understanding that nothing is being expected of them, or explaining the function that they are performign, but also that you appreciate the help they are giving that makes it a little more palatable (as long as it is not excessive)?

Is there any kind of type equivalent reciprocal action that we can do when you are upset other than leaving you alone, which would make you feel supported and happier?

Hey, when did you become a 1w2? If that's the case, I think we share the same enneagram type. What instinctual variants do you have?

 

[EJCC]

That is most helpful! So it's not only understanding that nothing is being expected of them, or explaining the function that they are performign, but also that you appreciate the help they are giving that makes it a little more palatable (as long as it is not excessive)?

Well, that's how it is with me, anyways. A lot of people don't know that I appreciate affirmation. That's why I thought it was a 1 thing - one of my favorite 1 type descriptions emphasizes that ones need someone to help them not take things so seriously, and tell them that their advice/help is appreciated. So, with ESTJ eights (who I don't even remotely understand, btw), it might be totally different.

Is there any kind of type equivalent reciprocal action that we can do when you are upset other than leaving you alone, which would make you feel supported and happier?

It depends on what kind of upset you're talking about. If it's anger, then leaving me alone is definitely the best option. If it's sadness or frustration, then it helps to do something fun with me, or find something distracting to do, or, if it's frustration about a problem I need to solve, helping me to solve the problem and being a grounded source of objectivity. But sometimes, when accompanying a distraction/etc, hugs are nice too

Hey, when did you become a 1w2? If that's the case, I think we share the same enneagram type. What instinctual variants do you have?

Technically, I've been one the whole time and I didn't know it. But I think I figured out that I'm not a 6 about a month ago. All thanks to some fancy internet workin' and the help of Speed Gavroche and also the fact that I realized "Hey, to a degree, EVERYONE'S driven to either avoid their fears or confront them to get rid of them! Whoa!"

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm so/sp/sx, though I relate to sp/so/sx a bit too.

 

[sculpting]

Those were great questions! Thanks!

Awesome answers! Thanks m'dear!

another question-when you prioritize your day-do things on your list get moved around by how important they are or do they just stay in the order they are listed?

 

[JTG1984]

Dear ESTJ,

Why so serious?

 

[EJCC]

Awesome answers! Thanks m'dear!

No problem!

another question-when you prioritize your day-do things on your list get moved around by how important they are or do they just stay in the order they are listed?

I don't always prioritize my day very strictly. Sometimes there'll be a big list of things that all need to get done on a particular day, in which case it generally doesn't matter what order I do them in. But besides that, I almost always prioritize based on how urgent something is, and if a thing is less urgent, it'll be pushed back. Pretty basic, really.

Dear ESTJ,

Why so serious?

I'll answer with a question: why so silly?

 

[sculpting]

EJCC,

Do you ever find yourself rushing to finish a task-just to have completed it and removed it from your list?

Also-Very young ESTJs-and even myself when in Te mode-can be a bit blunt, and well, sometimes appear rude. Did you face this when very young and if so, how long did it take to learn to be more smooth in delivery? Do you find certain communication techniques to be more useful when dealing with sensitive individuals?