[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

What I want to say is... it's perfectly possible to make them understand that their way of working isn't your way. Just be reasonable and... BLUNT. You can't expect them to understand you don't like their meddling if you just give them the cold shoulder or anything.
"Say, are you aware you're doing this? I really don't like it. I'd prefer..."
Probably you'll get a "but" or two, but if you stand your ground you'll get something like "let's try". Try and prove yourself.
There's nothing that convinces an ESTJ better than seeing that things do work out.

+100. That's EXACTLY right! Way to go Tamske

I've had the "let's try" answer on "Say, I've fallen in love with you. Care to be my boyfriend?"

Aw, cute

 

[Chaolioe]

How do you let an ESTJ know you care?

And better yet, How do you let an ESTJ know that just because you're scatter-brained and forgot to call back when you were supposed to that it wasn't a malicious act done against them, nor does it mean that they are not important to you?

 

[Max]

How do you let an ESTJ know you care?

My best advice is to just be straight with them. Tell them directly what it is that they do that you appreciate and be clear about it.

And better yet, How do you let an ESTJ know that just because you're scatter-brained and forgot to call back when you were supposed to that it wasn't a malicious act done against them, nor does it mean that they are not important to you?

If it's just once, it shouldn't be a big deal, but if it's a consistent pattern, it can get frustrating. Unfortunately, I'm not tempted to call my aunt anymore, who never answers my calls when I want to see her. I would call them back as soon as possible!

 

[Chaolioe]

That's actually pretty helpful. I'm glad I've been doing it right all along, telling him exactly what about him makes me love him. It's a little frustrating that in return he'll just tell me he loves me for me, though. I feel like that's really vague- is there anything I can do to get him to say which things he likes about me other than "Yeah, but what exactly about me do you love?" That never gets me clarification.


And for the other thing, it is a consistent pattern and I can imagine how upsetting and frustrating it is. I always call back as soon as I remember or realize I have a missed call- but recalling my things to do isn't my forte.

 

[JocktheMotie]

And better yet, How do you let an ESTJ know that just because you're scatter-brained and forgot to call back when you were supposed to that it wasn't a malicious act done against them, nor does it mean that they are not important to you?

Hmm, I've also found that deviations from the expected can make them freak out a bit.

 

[EJCC]

I totally agree with Max and Jock. But to further answer this question:

And better yet, How do you let an ESTJ know that just because you're scatter-brained and forgot to call back when you were supposed to that it wasn't a malicious act done against them, nor does it mean that they are not important to you?

Say exactly that. Seriously, just say to them "I think you should know: Just because I'm scatter-brained and forgot to call back when I was supposed to, doesn't mean that it was a malicious act done against you, nor does it mean that you're not important to me." <---almost exact quote. If you're direct about it, they'll respond positively. Generally, when I get frustrated with someone if they don't call back, it's because I just want to know WHY they didn't call back. So if you answer that - even if your answer is "because I'm scatter-brained" - they'll be happy.

 

[Chaolioe]

Thanks. I tried telling him that-- but he doesn't seem to really understand anything I say until I'm at the point of tears and he knows I'm being genuine.
I feel he finally understood what I meant when he was upset about it yet again and it made me cry and he asked what the problem was and I nearly shouted that I didn't want to lose him just because I'm F*ing retarded. He understood that.

I'm extremely appreciative of this thread existing because two of the most important men in my life are ESTJs...

Thank you all so much. You'll probably see me back here often for the reason stated above. (Silly me, nfp, knowing nothing about thinking or sensing xD)

 

[ColonelGadaafi]

When dealing with an ESTJ, be blunt, concise and accurate about just exactly the matter you wish to speak of. We will have it no other way.

 

[Tamske]

I'm extremely appreciative of this thread existing because two of the most important men in my life are ESTJs...

Dear Scatterbrain,
if you happen to live together with an ESTJ, you can even take advance of him to get a bit more organized!
Let the ESTJ organize for you. They love doing that, they really feel appreciated as they are needed for the thing they do best.
I'm organized almost to the point of J-ness thanks to my External Te
The drawback of this is, of course, a good bit of nagging...

Love from
Another Scatterbrain

 

[EJCC]

Dear Scatterbrain,
if you happen to live together with an ESTJ, you can even take advance of him to get a bit more organized!
Let the ESTJ organize for you. They love doing that, they really feel appreciated as they are needed for the thing they do best.
I'm organized almost to the point of J-ness thanks to my External Te
The drawback of this is, of course, a good bit of nagging...

Love from
Another Scatterbrain

Yes, please do that! I second what Tamske said here - we LOVE that sort of thing. One of my best friends, a supremely disorganized ENFJ, told me that when he got an apartment (away from his roommate), he'd call me to help him decorate. I'm not exaggerating when I say that this was my response: "Oh my god! I am SO there! I don't care where I am - I'll skip school, important events, whatever - but I WILL help you decorate!"

I think one reason why we love stuff like that is that - well, for me anyways, I tend to nag people a lot when they have cleaning/decorating issues, and my comments/concerns tend to get ignored, or at least dismissed. So, when they're not, you get this...

Me: "This place is a wreck. You have trash on the floor! You've stored part of your mess in a suitcase to avoid the problem instead of solving it!* We seriously need to have a cleaning party."
My ENFJ friend: "... Okay, sure!"
Me: "... what??? *ahem* I mean, awesome! It's a plan!"



*Literally. I was not using a metaphor - he actually had a suitcase full of junk in his closet.

 

[Tamske]

Can I invite you over to our house, EJCC?

What's that with ESTJs = throw away junk you don't use and ENFJ = hold everything that might have some use someday to somebody and everything that comes from friends/children/... and try to make the ESTJ do the same?
Argh. And why do I have to be in the middle of that mess?

 

[EJCC]

Can I invite you over to our house, EJCC?

Lol, I so would, but we live on different continents and I'm a poor college kid

What's that with ESTJs = throw away junk you don't use and ENFJ = hold everything that might have some use someday to somebody and everything that comes from friends/children/... and try to make the ESTJ do the same?
Argh. And why do I have to be in the middle of that mess?

I haven't really had that experience with my ENFJ friends... although whenever I purge my stuff back at home, my INFJ mom will always want me to keep things based on pleasant memories she has of them, when all I can think of is "It's worthless" or "It doesn't fit me anymore". How can I feel pleasantly about things that are a burden and don't do anything??

My two ENFJ friends (who, incidentally, I'm having two separate "cleaning parties" for) are kind of the opposite, though - they're both at the point where they're sick of how messy their living spaces are, and they want to change. And that's one thing that's struck me about the two of them: They succumb to temptation pretty easily, but when they decide they're done, they are DONE. e.g. my male ENFJ friend used to be very overweight, but when he decided to lose all the weight, he lost it so fast that people worried about him (even though, for the record, he was losing weight healthily). Also, once he was thinner, instead of getting rid of all his clothes gradually, or taking them to the Goodwill, he made a ceremony out of it and threw them all into the trash chute of his dorm floor.


p.s. 80 PAGES!!!!

 

[INTJMom]

Is there such a thing as an ESTJ door-slam?

A friend of mine is an ESTJ - self-tested.

He got mad at a bunch of us last week when the denial slipped off his eyes and he saw the reality that no one else wanted to play his game anymore. He proverbially took his ball and went home... right on the spot.

Has he washed his hands of us or is he going to come back and help us finish cleaning up the mess before we all go our separate ways?

 

[EJCC]

Is there such a thing as an ESTJ door-slam?

A friend of mine is an ESTJ - self-tested.

He got mad at a bunch of us last week when the denial slipped off his eyes and he saw the reality that no one else wanted to play his game anymore. He proverbially took his ball and went home... right on the spot.

Has he washed his hands of us or is he going to come back and help us finish cleaning up the mess before we all go our separate ways?

I'm not sure if I have enough information to make a statement about this (e.g. what's "his game"? what's "the mess"?), but I think I may have had a vaguely comparable experience, only without people getting sick of me. I used to be a member of this particular group of friends, and then I realized that I didn't like most of them, and I wasn't that connected with them, and the ones that I liked, I could be friendly with outside of the group. Almost immediately after I realized that, I distanced myself from them. After all, I had many different autonomous, non-mixing groups of friends besides those people, and I could just started spending all my time with them.

Another similar thing happened when I got completely sick of a friendly acquaintance of mine. Whenever I'd sit next to him in class, he'd talk to me, and it was really embarrassing for me, especially since he would always sit near the front and he didn't talk quietly. His social awkwardness (proved by that example and many, many others that I won't go into) started making more of an impact on my relationship with him than his well-meaning-ness. Therefore, I just stopped sitting next to him. Couldn't deal with it anymore.

But then again, that's a general ESTJ trend I've noticed - if we decide that we REALLY need to do something RIGHT AWAY, we go right ahead and do it. No dipping your toe in the water first. Just jumping right in, to get it over with. However, picking up the pieces, or repairing the bridges we burn, or whatever metaphor you choose to use for that, isn't really our strong suit. After all, in my two examples, I never really made my abandonment official, because I hate having those sorts of confrontational moments when the frustration isn't mutual. (I can deal with it when both of us are mad, but not when one is mad and the other is just feeling like a victim.) So, I'm inclined to say that the ESTJ you talked about isn't going to help clean up the mess. He's just going to (internally) sever all ties with you and pretend like you don't exist.

However, just to reiterate, I'm not sure if I have enough details for my opinion to be correct.

 

[sculpting]

Hi ESTJ!

I an an enfp but I think I have an ESTJ living inside of me. (NeFi then TeSi)
Granted a really puny, rather slow ESTJ.

I wanted to get your perspective on how you use Te and see if it sounds familiar. Given there are 80 pages here I will start reading in just a moment, but thought I'd post this first. (Ne makes me do these things)

So questions:

1. When trying to accomplish a task and not getting results-do you externalize frustration?


2. How do you handle/feel emotions? How do they effect your course of action? Does sympathy/empathy cause you to change course?



3. Are you competitive?



4. When given a problem to solve-how do you use Si relative to Te? Is it like a data library?



5. Do you use your tert Ne at all? I have seen this in an older ESTP-I could help her see different possibilities that did not occur to her and she would explore them with me-but she may not have seen them herself.



6. Do you confront people openly? Over what types of issues-emotional or logical or procedural ?



7. Above I noted you dive right in once your course of action is set-how long does it take you to set that course of action in time?



(My apologies if I offend, sometimes my phrasing can be kinda harsh.)

 

[EJCC]

Hey Orobas! It's okay if you don't read the rest of the thread. I mean, it's 80 pages! Seriously.
But I digress. Here are my answers to your questions:

1. When trying to accomplish a task and not getting results-do you externalize frustration?
Yeah, I generally do, and almost always in the same way: "Rrrgh!!!" i.e. just making a frustrated noise. Sometimes I vent a little too, e.g. "Why isn't this WORKING????" in addition to the frustrated noise. Unless I'm in a professional situation where I really need to stay composed, in which case I might say completely normal things, but seem exasperated.

However, if I'm worse than frustrated (i.e. angry), which sometimes happens when things REALLY aren't working out when I want them to, I'll completely internalize it, but it'll still be obvious to other people - like how you can still tell that the water in a teapot is boiling even though you can't see the water. I never yell or anything like that. I just give off really bad vibes. <-- but I think that relates to being an enneagram 1, not to being an ESTJ.


2. How do you handle/feel emotions? How do they effect your course of action? Does sympathy/empathy cause you to change course?
Positive emotions are no big deal. I just let them come and go and everything's fine, and they make things better and more fun. I'm angry reasonably often, so it never surprises me, and I'm used to it. However, sadness/loneliness/grief/etc. always catches me off guard. I'll suddenly, without warning, want to cry, and I'll be thinking "Where the f*ck did that come from??" Out of all those different emotions, I think that the only one that makes me act irrationally is anger. When I'm angry, I think I'm rational when I'm not, so I'll say ridiculous things that I don't mean, while on the other hand, I know I'm irrational when I want to cry, so I take a moment to calm down before I make any big decisions. (Any of my close friends could tell you, too, that it doesn't take me very long at all to regain my composure after getting upset. Even in the worst times of my life, I've locked myself in my room, cried for ten minutes, and then emerged completely calm and ready to go.)

As to the second part of that question, I hardly ever feel sympathy or empathy, but when I do, it makes it harder to make my decision. Generally what'll happen is that I'll make the same decision that I otherwise would, but I'll feel really bad afterwards (though not regretful).


3. Are you competitive?
Yes. I don't like being competitive, though, unless I win, or at least do decently (since I tend to define my skill in relation to other people). I didn't do sports in high school, since I was naturally not very good at them, and I refuse to be one of the worst people at anything I participate in. Being in the middle is okay, and winning is awesome, but losing - I mean REALLY losing - is horrible for me, since when I lose, my self-esteem goes to sh*t.


4. When given a problem to solve-how do you use Si relative to Te? Is it like a data library?
I suppose. I generally don't think of my thought processes in terms of functions, but that sounds about right. If you give me a problem to solve, the first thing I'll do is think "What am I supposed to do here?" And if I have no clue (i.e. if there's no precedent), I'll just wing it, e.g. "Oh well. I'll just do ____ and see what happens." <--- Lol, that sounds like Ne, in retrospect.


5. Do you use your tert Ne at all? I have seen this in an older ESTP-I could help her see different possibilities that did not occur to her and she would explore them with me-but she may not have seen them herself.
See above. Also, whenever I get really excited about something, I have an Ne attack. Typical (but totally made up) example: "OMG I saw an ad for this movie the other day and it was SO EXCITING!!! Did you know that it's based on a comic book that came out in 1970? So they had to change the setting, and the main character originally had huge hair and so they had to change it for the movie to make it look more modern blah blah blah...!!"

In all seriousness, though, your example seems right. In order to make creative things, I often need someone to give me an idea before I can get inspired and make something interesting.


6. Do you confront people openly? Over what types of issues-emotional or logical or procedural ?
I generally confront people openly about things. I ALWAYS confront people openly about procedural things and logical things - I pretty much never hold back - but when emotions get involved, that's where I get hesitant. I could say the most horrible things in the world without feeling bad if I knew that no one would have their feelings hurt. But with, say, ending relationships with friends, I never know what to do. It's as if I'm fluent in Blunt-ese, and can only have shallow, small-talk-ish conversations in Emotion-ese, but I know better than to try to speak one language with someone who's speaking the other one (which is why I'm so hesitant to be blunt in emotional situations, and yet have too little vocabulary in that to do very well).

However, I'm actually less likely to hold back on emotional things with my close friends, because I know that they'll understand that I just want to help.


7. Above I noted you dive right in once your course of action is set-how long does it take you to set that course of action in time?
It depends. Although it never takes me long at all to go from start to finish in my planning process, sometimes (depending on how little I want to deal with the issue) I might put it off for a while first.


(My apologies if I offend, sometimes my phrasing can be kinda harsh.)
It's not even remotely harsh! It's all good.

 

[INTJMom]

I'm not sure if I have enough information to make a statement about this (e.g. what's "his game"? what's "the mess"?), but I think I may have had a vaguely comparable experience, only without people getting sick of me. I used to be a member of this particular group of friends, and then I realized that I didn't like most of them, and I wasn't that connected with them, and the ones that I liked, I could be friendly with outside of the group. Almost immediately after I realized that, I distanced myself from them. After all, I had many different autonomous, non-mixing groups of friends besides those people, and I could just started spending all my time with them.

Another similar thing happened when I got completely sick of a friendly acquaintance of mine. Whenever I'd sit next to him in class, he'd talk to me, and it was really embarrassing for me, especially since he would always sit near the front and he didn't talk quietly. His social awkwardness (proved by that example and many, many others that I won't go into) started making more of an impact on my relationship with him than his well-meaning-ness. Therefore, I just stopped sitting next to him. Couldn't deal with it anymore.

But then again, that's a general ESTJ trend I've noticed - if we decide that we REALLY need to do something RIGHT AWAY, we go right ahead and do it. No dipping your toe in the water first. Just jumping right in, to get it over with. However, picking up the pieces, or repairing the bridges we burn, or whatever metaphor you choose to use for that, isn't really our strong suit. After all, in my two examples, I never really made my abandonment official, because I hate having those sorts of confrontational moments when the frustration isn't mutual. (I can deal with it when both of us are mad, but not when one is mad and the other is just feeling like a victim.) So, I'm inclined to say that the ESTJ you talked about isn't going to help clean up the mess. He's just going to (internally) sever all ties with you and pretend like you don't exist.

However, just to reiterate, I'm not sure if I have enough details for my opinion to be correct.

Thank you very much for your answer. I think it works just fine even though you didn't have the particulars. I appreciated your answer. Thank you! So if that's what happens, I won't hold it against him.

 

[EJCC]

Thank you very much for your answer. I think it works just fine even though you didn't have the particulars. I appreciated your answer. Thank you! So if that's what happens, I won't hold it against him.

No problem at all. I'm glad I could help

 

[Tamske]

I've prepared my lessons three weeks in advance.
Results:

1) my weekends are free.
2) I've always got the impression I haven't prepared anything. I really have to check multiple times.
3) I haven't written a single thing, though I've got loads of ideas. There was always work to do. I still procrastinate on my writing, preparing even more lessons instead or doing housework.
4) I feel as if I'm not doing anything.
5) I'm afraid now something will come up which would render my preparations useless. The biggest fear of a P: being prepared for the wrong thing. You did lose time on preparation and it still didn't go better than unprepared.

I mean, three weeks in advance! Am I really on my way to J-ness? If yes, should I go on with it? How can I avoid side-effects like 2) and 4)?

 

[EJCC]

I've prepared my lessons three weeks in advance.
Results:

1) my weekends are free.
2) I've always got the impression I haven't prepared anything. I really have to check multiple times.
3) I haven't written a single thing, though I've got loads of ideas. There was always work to do. I still procrastinate on my writing, preparing even more lessons instead or doing housework.
4) I feel as if I'm not doing anything.
5) I'm afraid now something will come up which would render my preparations useless. The biggest fear of a P: being prepared for the wrong thing. You did lose time on preparation and it still didn't go better than unprepared.

I mean, three weeks in advance! Am I really on my way to J-ness? If yes, should I go on with it? How can I avoid side-effects like 2) and 4)?

I think that what you're describing is common for everybody who's ever prepared something three weeks in advance, or who's finished something way earlier than they needed to. I always second guess myself when I do that (so it's not just a P thing) - for example, I'll be packing for a trip and I'll finish early, and spend all the rest of my extra time going "I must have forgotten something, but I can't think of what it is..." Because of that, I never enjoy finishing things that much earlier than I need to - and if I do, I make sure to spend the time that I would have spent on the project doing something else that needed to be done. e.g. "Hey, I can finally mend that hole in my flannel shirt! I actually have time now!!" That's how I'd avoid #2 and #4.

I still wouldn't recommend that to most people, though. After all, Leonard Bernstein had it right when he said “To achieve great things, two things are needed; a plan, and not quite enough time.”