[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[EJCC]

@INTPness: It would be horrible. It would mean that no one would ever listen to me - that is, if you include suggesting things to people as "dictation", as well. People would walk all over me! I would have no voice! Honestly, you'd think that that would be anyone's worst nightmare... but maybe ESTJs more so than others?

I was put in a situation like that once, at a leadership seminar, where I was chosen, without my knowledge, to be the one person in the group who was constantly asked for advice, and whose ideas were consequently shut down. (Whoever thought that was a constructive team exercise should be slapped, and I want to be the one to do it.) I had to lock myself in a room and cry afterwards - and I'm really, REALLY not the type of person who does that. It was horrible (essentially my worst nightmare realized).

@BMEF: Give him a little Christmas present and a note/card! It's not too late Maybe something relating to the subject he teaches? I had a U.S. History teacher once, an ESTx, who was given by some of his students a shirt that said "Jefferson Davis: Most likely to secede", and he wore it pretty much every day after that.

 

[Max]

My dear ESTJ friends, how can I make my favorite teacher (an ESTJ) feel like he is the best teacher in the world?

Don't know, but if you succeed, do tell me how you've done so. I want to be a math teacher one day.

Haven't read the first 60-some pages of this thread, but........

What if you NEVER got to be in charge of anything ever again? What if you woke up one morning and found yourself in a world where you were dominated in your marriage, at work, and all the other hours of the day? You weren't able to dictate ANYTHING.

Would it be like...hell on earth?

That would suck.

 

[Tamske]

My dear ESTJ friends, how can I make my favorite teacher (an ESTJ) feel like he is the best teacher in the world?

Say (or write on a card): "You've taught me so much, thank you."
You can add some examples to it and specific things you've learnt from him.

At least to me, this would be the best compliment a student can give. Though I'm not an ESTJ, I am a teacher... and I'm sure that, in this situation, "teacher" is more important than type.

The primary goal of every good teacher is to make their students more competent at the field they are teaching. Let him know that he has reached his goal!


I'm answering more questions on the "ask an ESTJ" thread than on the "ask an ENTP" thread ...
If I say I'm an APESTJ (aspirant part-time ESTJ), am I allowed to answer questions here? Please?

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I was put in a situation like that once, at a leadership seminar, where I was chosen, without my knowledge, to be the one person in the group who was constantly asked for advice, and whose ideas were consequently shut down. (Whoever thought that was a constructive team exercise should be slapped, and I want to be the one to do it.) I had to lock myself in a room and cry afterwards - and I'm really, REALLY not the type of person who does that. It was horrible (essentially my worst nightmare realized).

That makes me frustrated to even read that. :steam:

"Jefferson Davis: Most likely to secede"

 

[EJCC]

I'm answering more questions on the "ask an ESTJ" thread than on the "ask an ENTP" thread ...
If I say I'm an APESTJ (aspirant part-time ESTJ), am I allowed to answer questions here? Please?

Sure! As long as you're qualified to answer them. For instance, fidelia has answered a lot of questions on here, because her ex is an ESTJ. Same with MDP2525. And since you were a teacher, you were qualified to answer that last one. So feel free!

I know, right?

 

[Tamske]

Sure! As long as you're qualified to answer them.

If this isn't a real ESTJ speaking here!

 

[EJCC]

If this isn't a real ESTJ speaking here!

...

 

[Tamske]

What would you prefer?

An ENTP getting the job done in her crazy outside-the-box way of doing, needing a lot more time (but all the while creating other things) than you would need to complete the same task...

or

An ENTP trying to get the job done in a conventional way, maybe needing less time than in the other way but being frustrated the whole time...

 

[Max]

I think a job like that may be better left done to someone who wouldn't be as bored by it. But I think that in general we're more concerned with the results than with the progress, so if the first way happens to get the job done more efficiently and it works better over time, that may be the way to go. Though we often have strict-set ways on how to get certain jobs done, I know from experience that some individuals have their own ways of doing things that can't really be changed. I spent a couple of weeks of summer 2008 tutoring my ADHD 10-year old neighbor in math, and I remember his mother telling me that he has his own but somewhat slower way of figuring things out. If the result would come out and it was good, it made no difference to me than if he had gotten it done faster. I want to be a math teacher, so this was a helpful experience for me and it's good to be able to handle an unconventional method of handling something.

I don't know if my specific situation would relate directly to your "creating other things" that you refer to, but I think it's pretty similar and would be my best answer to your question.

 

[EJCC]

^ Seconded. It's the results that matter most in the end. We may shake our heads (internally) at your crazy thought processes, but "as long as the job gets done"... (That's how I am with my ENTP friend, anyway.)

 

[Tamske]

Thanks.
By the way, I'm improving on efficiency! Deadlines work for me. [/boasting]

Now a question I'd like you to take literally... (shouldn't be a problem!)

I've seen you guys (and girls) saying repeatedly that ESTJ = the most hated type... why? Why do you think people hate you? Where do you experience this?

(Incidentally, I think most people experience they aren't valued as high by others as they should. People tend to take your contribution as granted - especially if it's of the repetitive, non-showy kind.)

 

[EJCC]

I personally think it's because of the types of people who populate this site. They're mostly Ns, and when an ESTJ isn't healthy, they REALLY rub Ns the wrong way, more so than Ss, from my experience. Also, because they're Ns (seeing patterns everywhere), if they know a few ESTJs who are jerks/unhealthy/D-bags/etc, they often judge all ESTJs based on that model. So on TypeC, you'll hear a lot of "I hate ESTJs! My dad is an ESTJ, and he's the biggest control freak on the planet!" (Most of the ranting I've seen like that has been from INxPs... and as you know, there are a LOT of them on this forum.)

But that's just my theory. Another valid theory might be that ESTJs are more annoying when unhealthy than other types are, but I disagree with that.

 

[Max]

So on TypeC, you'll hear a lot of "I hate ESTJs! My dad is an ESTJ, and he's the biggest control freak on the planet!"

Yeah, that's definitely a huge part of it.

But I think it extends beyond this forum and to the other people around you who you interact with on a day-to-day basis, people who are unaware of their types and where Ns and NPs are much less populous than they are on here.

I think it's because we're all different from each other in some way, and we tend to have this very strong "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of attitude towards things, whether we're consciously thinking about it or not. It can get bothersome to those around us, possibly including other ESTJs who may have a different way of looking at things or whatever.

I think my life would be a lot better if a much greater proportion of people, especially those I interact with, were more similar to myself- scheduled, into the same things, etc.

However, my life story goes back a long way, and I have a very specific situation that I think may have affected me to the point where it goes beyond my type as to why there's tension between myself and those around me.

Maybe I'm an unhealthy ESTJ- I don't know.

 

[Fidelia]

What makes me laugh on here is that despite an unusually high number of people abusing ESTJs, when there was a thread on which type you wish you could be, ESTJ was the number one answer.

I think a lot of people are frustrated with feeling powerless or not valued and they often tend to be IN?Ps with ESTJ bosses (ESTJ bosses are also fairly common, so there are more opportunities for people to have met bad examples of them).

 

[Tamske]

Also, because they're Ns (seeing patterns everywhere), if they know a few ESTJs who are jerks/unhealthy/D-bags/etc, they often judge all ESTJs based on that model.

Why wouldn't the Ns hate every type then? There are jerks to be found everywhere!
And for the same reason our N can love every type...

Incidentally, my 'problem type' is ENFJ, but I caught my generalisation (any N worth his/her salt also sees patterns in his/her own thoughts!) and refuse to hate them only because the first ENFJ examples I found were jerks... So I've actively sought some good ENFJ examples to correct the 'manipulating jerk' picture I knew was wrong - and found them.

Still, most of the ENFJs in my stories are evil... (but I've created an important good one recently!)

I think a lot of people are frustrated with feeling powerless or not valued...

So true. When there are ESTJs in my presence (quite common occurence), I always feel inferior. It's as if the contrast enhances my flaws. Maybe the ESTJ hate is nothing but the hate of your own flaws.
And, probably more than other types, ESTJs seem to give off this aura of "I'm perfect" - down to earth, caring about relevant things (eg. I know and feel that it's more important to be interested in politics than to be interested in your own crazy MBTI allegoric pictures), consistent,... you name it.
Probably an unbalanced ESTJ would really think himself as perfect and the only reason why things get done.

My husband and I were discussing flaws.
Tamske - "Strange, when we discuss, it's always MY flaws we're discussing. What about yours?"
Hubby - "I've got difficulties accepting other people's time management. You know - I see you doing it 'that way' while if you did it 'this way' you'd get the job done much quicker and have more free time"
Tamske - "So that's again a flaw of mine "
Hubby - "I didn't mean that!"

 

[EJCC]

Why wouldn't the Ns hate every type then? There are jerks to be found everywhere!
And for the same reason our N can love every type...

Good point. Whoops

So true. When there are ESTJs in my presence (quite common occurence), I always feel inferior. It's as if the contrast enhances my flaws. Maybe the ESTJ hate is nothing but the hate of your own flaws.
And, probably more than other types, ESTJs seem to give off this aura of "I'm perfect" - down to earth, caring about relevant things (eg. I know and feel that it's more important to be interested in politics than to be interested in your own crazy MBTI allegoric pictures), consistent,... you name it.
Probably an unbalanced ESTJ would really think himself as perfect and the only reason why things get done.

Huh. This is a really interesting point, although I will say that I don't see it as arrogance. From my experience, ESTJs (even unhealthy ones) are not naturally prone towards big-headedness, or anything like that. It's not that they see themselves as perfect. It's that they see their views as THE TRUTH, which means that they
1. are not open at ALL to new ideas (because their ideas are the right ones), and
2. are always trying to change everyone to suit their model.
Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!

My husband and I were discussing flaws.
Tamske - "Strange, when we discuss, it's always MY flaws we're discussing. What about yours?"
Hubby - "I've got difficulties accepting other people's time management. You know - I see you doing it 'that way' while if you did it 'this way' you'd get the job done much quicker and have more free time"
Tamske - "So that's again a flaw of mine "
Hubby - "I didn't mean that!"

Wow. Smooth moves, there.
I kinda relate to your guy in this situation, though. The situations that frustrate me the most is when I see people doing things that I consider to be "illogical", or simply "wrong", and they "won't listen to reason" when I try to convince them to do things the "right" way.
If I were to say what MY worst flaws were, though... I'd say that my #1 worst flaw that I wish I could change is my fear of breaking out of my comfort zone. I really, really envy ESTPs, because sometimes it seems like their comfort zone is pretty much endless... *wistful sigh*

 

[Tamske]

Good point. Whoops
Huh. This is a really interesting point, although I will say that I don't see it as arrogance. From my experience, ESTJs (even unhealthy ones) are not naturally prone towards big-headedness, or anything like that. It's not that they see themselves as perfect. It's that they see their views as THE TRUTH, which means that they
1. are not open at ALL to new ideas (because their ideas are the right ones), and
2. are always trying to change everyone to suit their model.
Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!

Please accept a little Fe lesson - this is exactly what gives you the arrogant image.

Wow. Smooth moves, there.
I kinda relate to your guy in this situation, though. The situations that frustrate me the most is when I see people doing things that I consider to be "illogical", or simply "wrong", and they "won't listen to reason" when I try to convince them to do things the "right" way.
If I were to say what MY worst flaws were, though... I'd say that my #1 worst flaw that I wish I could change is my fear of breaking out of my comfort zone. I really, really envy ESTPs, because sometimes it seems like their comfort zone is pretty much endless... *wistful sigh*

Don't worry!
He actually did mean it literally - he saw that as his flaw, not mine. It was a very interesting discussion...

When talking to ESTJs: if you feel offended, it was probably not his/her intention. Feelings are okay when made explicit. Don't try to read between the lines. The messages/hidden meanings you find there are products of your own intuition and have nothing to do with reality.

 

[Tamske]

About ENTP boredom...
There is this "ENTP - bored" association I've seen thoughout the forum. We've had a discussion about it on the "ask an ENTP" thread, too.
There were opinions like "My whole life is devoted to combat boredom"
I can't relate to that at all! The only place where I saw the opposite opinion was here, voiced by an ESTJ (EJCC, to be precise).

Have you ever seen a bored ENTP?

And how do you see boredom and combat it, ESTJs?

 

[Chunes]

Their obnoxious behavior is often entirely selfless. They just want everything to be DONE RIGHT!!!

I think being selfless involves letting others do things how they want. There is no mystical 'right way' to do things, and it drives me crazy when someone wants to limit it to one single way, like it couldn't be done any way else.

 

[Tamske]

Cool, an INFP on the "ask an ESTJ" thread.
*admires the contrast*