Random Politics Thread

[Virtual ghost]

People who supported both Bushes and Reagan, IMO, tend to fit into this box

Yeah, I thought that is going to be the answer.
If those are financially liberal in my country we don't have fiscally conservative people at all. But ok, the cultural gap is huge.

 

[Red Herring]

Yeah, I thought that is going to be the answer.
If those are financially liberal in my country we don't have fiscally conservative people at all. But ok, the cultural gap is huge.

I think this is a misunderstanding based on unclear terminology.

 

[Virtual ghost]

By "financially liberal", do you mean financially left i. e. big government or financially laissez-faire, i. e. small government? I'm asking because this keeps coming up between us


I would say that most Germans are mildly conservative on social issues (less so than Americans but more than, say, Scandinavians) and mostly pro-big-government (within reason). I would describe myself as socially progressive (though not 100% onboard with wokeness) and cautiously pro-big-government.

Yeah I should have perhaps said left even if that is perhaps too strong word and the definitions are a mind field (I was thinking about saying left). However what I meant were strong safety nets and large systems. What for me isn't big government since that sounds kinda totalitarian. Actually here among common people there are no small/big government as defined terms. Here historically classic small governments would get invaded right away and therefore they don't have historical background. So it is either big government or nothing, the government is big by definition.



However here coalitions between the left and liberal are fairly common, however from what I understand this isn't that common around EU. This is why I probably made a mistake in choosing the term.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I think this is a misunderstanding based on unclear terminology.

It probably is. While on the other hand my conservative party is in economy generally to the left of Bernie. Therefore by American definitions it is actually possible we don't have any truly fiscally conservative politicians. Social issues are totally separate pair of shoes.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yeah, I thought that is going to be the answer.
If those are financially liberal in my country we don't have fiscally conservative people at all. But ok, the cultural gap is huge.

All 3 supported massive military spending on the industrial military complex. One might consider that a liberal use of taxpayer money, not to mention the national debts to which they contributed

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

 

[Virtual ghost]

All 3 supported massive military spending on the industrial military complex. One might consider that a liberal use of taxpayer money, not to mention the national debts to which they contributed

Yes but for me it isn't just in how much money is being spent. So I suppose the question should have been: How many Americans are for socially conservative values and big influence of the government into the economy. Either by subsidies, safety nets etc. (what in America should be somewhat of a oxymoron if I got it right)

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Yes but for me it isn't just in how much money is being spent. So I suppose the question should have been: How many Americans are for socially conservative values and big influence of the government into the economy. Either by subsidies, safety nets etc. (what in America should be somewhat of a oxymoron if I got it right)

Ah, well Republicans like Bush II supported subsidizing certain industries such as oil. Not to mention support for the 2008 bailout (blamed on Obama by many but he wasn’t even in office yet)

 

[Virtual ghost]

Ah, well Republicans like Bush II supported subsidizing certain industries such as oil. Not to mention support for the 2008 bailout (blamed on Obama by many but he wasn’t even in office yet)

Yes, but these are more random, mild or temporary decisions. What is very gentle next to my conservatives, so here is what I had in mind. My conservatives made open campaign promise not to subsidize local big oil but to nationalize it. They designed, support and enforce medicare for all. There is "free" college. They support and organize subsidies for start ups. They made a law towards which you can't throw a family on the street if they can't at the time pay mortgage. They put the richest man in the country into jail. They remade the stock market once when the problems hit. They protected people from banks in certain situations. They are subsidizing farming and shipyards. Good number of sport clubs is still government owned. They give money to the Church. They buy books for the schoolchildren. etc .



For me that is left in economic sense.
However is social issues they are right: anti uncontrolled multiculturalism by decent margin, anti-pot, not too friendly towards gays or none whites, pro military etc.


I am simply getting the sense that this mix doesn't really exists in USA. So the question was how big chunk of US population fits this profile in their political leanings ?

 

[The Cat]

As long as I remember
The rain's been comin' down
Clouds of mystery pourin'
Confusion on the ground

Good men through the ages
Tryin' to find the sun
And I wonder, still I wonder
Who'll stop the rain

I went down Virginia
Seekin' shelter from the storm
Caught up in the fable
I watched the tower grow

Five year plans and new deals
Wrapped in golden chains
And I wonder, still I wonder
Who'll stop the rain?

Heard the singers playin'
How we cheered for more
The crowd then rushed together
Tryin' to keep warm

Still the rain kept pourin'
Fallin' on my ears
And I wonder, still I wonder
Who'll stop the rain?

 

[ceecee]

Black People in the US Were Enslaved Well into the 1960s - VICE

 

[ceecee]

Yes, but these are more random, mild or temporary decisions. What is very gentle next to my conservatives, so here is what I had in mind. My conservatives made open campaign promise not to subsidize local big oil but to nationalize it. They designed, support and enforce medicare for all. There is "free" college. They support and organize subsidies for start ups. They made a law towards which you can't throw a family on the street if they can't at the time pay mortgage. They put the richest man in the country into jail. They remade the stock market once when the problems hit. They protected people from banks in certain situations. They are subsidizing farming and shipyards. Good number of sport clubs is still government owned. They give money to the Church. They buy books for the schoolchildren. etc .



For me that is left in economic sense.
However is social issues they are right: anti uncontrolled multiculturalism by decent margin, anti-pot, not too friendly towards gays or none whites, pro military etc.


I am simply getting the sense that this mix doesn't really exists in USA. So the question was how big chunk of US population fits this profile in their political leanings ?

Fiscally conservative, socially liberal? Lots of them admit to this, loud and proud but when you tell them that's a fallacy and explain why, they end up taking the first one over the second and tack that on to socially in almost every case I have ever encountered. Not all but the vast majority. And they generally vote for Republicans as they don't give that much of a shit about what happens to people not them or not like them. Simply watching what they do and how they act is all the proof anyone needs.

It's not a viable ideology, especially after seeing what tethering health insurance to a job has done to millions that never had to worry about this before. Or unemployment. Or business loans. For anyone that thinks you can separate social issues from economics - you cannot. Can not. Individual spending is individual, not one is talking about that but voting for the state to actively keep people from basic human needs - nah. You'll get out of the way or you'll get moved.

The Cognitive Dissonance of Social Liberalism, Fiscal Conservatism – Berkeley Economic Review

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

This is an awesome article. It backs up my mood.

The neoliberal era is ending. What comes next?

True, sometimes the government invests in projects that don’t pay off. Shocking? No: that’s what investment’s all about. Enterprise is always about taking risks. And the problem with most private “venture” capitalists, Mazzucato points out, is that they’re not willing to venture all that much. After the Sars outbreak in 2003, private investors quickly pulled the plug on coronavirus research. It simply wasn’t profitable enough. Meanwhile, publicly funded research continued, for which the US government paid a cool $700m. (If and when a vaccine comes, you have the government to thank for that.)

The ideology that was dominant these last 40 years is dying. What will replace it? Nobody knows for sure. It’s not hard to imagine this crisis might send us down an even darker path. That rulers will use it to seize more power, restrict their populations’ freedom, and stoke the flames of racism and hatred.

But things can be different. Thanks to the hard work of countless activists and academics, networkers and agitators, we can also imagine another way. This pandemic could send us down a path of new values.

The potential is there. A new dynamic does seem to be slowly emerging. The discourse has indeed been shifting over the past twenty years. New ideas are gaining more and more momentum through the years. The current situation does nothing but validate them.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Fiscally conservative, socially liberal? Lots of them admit to this, loud and proud but when you tell them that's a fallacy and explain why, they end up taking the first one over the second and tack that on to socially in almost every case I have ever encountered. Not all but the vast majority. And they generally vote for Republicans as they don't give that much of a shit about what happens to people not them or not like them. Simply watching what they do and how they act is all the proof anyone needs.

It's not a viable ideology, especially after seeing what tethering health insurance to a job has done to millions that never had to worry about this before. Or unemployment. Or business loans. For anyone that thinks you can separate social issues from economics - you cannot. Can not. Individual spending is individual, not one is talking about that but voting for the state to actively keep people from basic human needs - nah. You'll get out of the way or you'll get moved.

The Cognitive Dissonance of Social Liberalism, Fiscal Conservatism – Berkeley Economic Review

I was talking about the opposite. Fiscally liberal, socially conservative. The question was how many in US would fit into that box since here that is probably the most numerous combination. After all I am not far from that either. I am evidently fiscally to the left as long as we are in the domain of common sense, while socially I am more of a centrist. Mostly since I am too "orderly" for a genuine liberal.

 

[ceecee]

I was talking about the opposite. Fiscally liberal, socially conservative. The question was how many in US would fit into that box since here that is probably the most numerous combination. After all I am not far from that either. I am evidently fiscally to the left as long as we are in the domain of common sense, while socially I am more of a centrist. Mostly since I am too "orderly" for a genuine liberal.

Hmm. I don't think there are many of these people in the US. If they are socially conservative, that's going to be the driving force for them. Including spending. Put it this way; I've never heard a staunch anti-choice conservative say they hated the idea of abortion but were ok with women making that choice themselves AND were fine funding it as a taxpayer.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Black People in the US Were Enslaved Well into the 1960s - VICE

Holy fuck.

Okay. So here’s what we gotta do. Seize all of those white families’ plantation records and look at the profits. Years of back pay need to be given to descendants of all those workers. The ones with no descendants, we send the money to inner city charity funds and BLM and the like. They all get additional money just for the trauma they endured.

 

[ceecee]

Holy fuck.

Okay. So here’s what we gotta do. Seize all of those white families’ plantation records and look at the profits. Years of back pay need to be given to descendants of all those workers. The ones with no descendants, we send the money to inner city charity funds and BLM and the like. They all get additional money just for the trauma they endured.

That article made me want to throw up.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Hmm. I don't think there are many of these people in the US. If they are socially conservative, that's going to be the driving force for them. Including spending. Put it this way; I've never heard a staunch anti-choice conservative say they hated the idea of abortion but were ok with women making that choice themselves AND were fine funding it as a taxpayer.

Well, by certain logic they shouldn't be numerous. But I was curious.
As a matter of fact it is funny that you mention abortion. Since here I have seen top pro life people going exactly in this direction. The state already gives benefits about child care, we have socialized medicine, "free" college .... etc. Therefore there is no real reason that these healthy babies are killed as a fetus just because grown ups are idiots. I personally think none medical abortion should be legal, at least until certain month. While unwanted pregnancies should be countered through education and before they even happen. However this indeed totally crashes US style debate on the issue.

 

[ceecee]

Well, by certain logic they shouldn't be numerous. But I was curious.
As a matter of fact it is funny that you mention abortion. Since here I have seen top pro life people going exactly in this direction. The state already gives benefits about child care, we have socialized medicine, "free" college .... etc. Therefore there is no real reason that these healthy babies are killed as a fetus just because grown ups are idiots. I personally think none medical abortion should be legal, at least until certain month. While unwanted pregnancies should be countered through education and before they even happen. However this indeed totally crashes US style debate on the issue.

The idea that the economic status of a woman playing a huge role in considering an abortion or not, is entirely lost on most conservative Americans. I know I have had this conversation with some of them and they can't even fathom it however, these same people often consider being poor in the US as something you brought on by your own actions too. Poverty is definitely bad and in many minds, criminal as well.

So changing the economic status, providing health care, education and basic needs would likely change many elements, including abortion, right? No one would need to be making decisions between abortion and feeding a child or the elderly paying for medication or young people not having families because they can't fucking afford it.....

But HoWyOuGoNnApAyFoRiT? durrrrr.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

But HoWyOuGoNnApAyFoRiT? durrrrr.

I wish they'd asked HoWyOuGoNnApAyFoRiT before Operation Iraqi Freedom.