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The Dark Tower Book Series

The Cat

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I looked to see if there was already a thread. Didnt find one. Say true. If one exists and I missed it. Say Sorry.

This thread will be rife with spoilers and random thoughts about the book series and comic series, The Dark Tower by Stephen King, and other Stephen King and horror works and how they could fit into one another. World building is a likely side effect of this thread. I'm just gonna roll with it.

This thread assumes that the reader has read at least all seven of the dark tower books and other Stephen King works, so if you havent, consider yourself warned: Here be spoilers. If you havent read the books. You should. But ye've been warned. So without further ado:

See the Eagle's brilliant eye,
And wings on which he holds the sky!
He spies the land and spies the sea
And even spies a child like me.
See the TURTLE of enormous girth!
On his shell he holds the earth.
His thought is slow but always kind:
He holds us all within his mind.
On his back all vows are made;
He sees the truth but mayn't aid.
He loves the land and loves the sea,
And even loves a child like me.
See the TURTLE of enormous girth!
On his shell he holds the Earth.
If you want to run and play
Come along the BEAM today.
See the BEAR of fearsome size
All the WORLD'S within his eyes!
Time grows thin, the past's a riddle;
The TOWER awaits you I'm the middle
See the TURTLE, ain't he keen?
All things serve the fuckin' BEAM.

And when all else fails Gunslinger...
Just keep walking, dude.
And never forget Walter...
Mordred is ahungry.


Dandelo went down to Derry it was looking for some souls to eat and it was out of its mind because of the Author's crime: it was the first it had tasted defeat.
 

Totenkindly

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I dunno if there was ever a dedicated thread. It might have happened in other threads. I know we've talked a bit about it over the years but probably in the "reading" thread or "random books."

An assortment of personal comments to spur things on:

  • I think King's attempt to create his own mythology spanning all his books has sometimes worked wonderfully, other times has been a little too much. For example, Callahan's story entering this series I think works really nice and he has quite a memorable arc (and it's actually relevant to this series, with the veer into the vampire tiers). But I never really bought that Walter is Flagg, for example; they didn't feel like the same people. I also wasn't really cool with King writing himself into his own story; it's a little too Shyamalan for me, and a case of him doing personal therapy at the reader's expense. I mean, I love the guy, and I am willing to give him that, but... uggh, I just wanted things to move on, and he was obviously stuck and was trying to jump-start the narrative. But it is cool to see little things drop in this series + his other works that make it seem more cohesive.
  • The two favorite things altogether I loved in this series was (1) an underage Roland beating his trainer Cort to become a gunslinger, that account was absolutely inspired, and (2) Wizard & Glass, which is my favorite book of the series. There's some other great stuff here and there but that is all burned into my brain.
  • The character of Mordred is one of my favorites, dipping into my obsession/terror of spiders, but just... so well-done. Like, just one of the best characters ever. His birth scene is one of most horrifying things I have ever read anywhere (on par with Stephen Donaldon's horror fantasy elements), and then the whole deal with Walter, and going on and on. Holy shit.
  • My second favorite book was The Drawing of the Three; I like how all the ka-tet is very different, but Roland is forced to assemble them because of his own infirmity.
  • The final book is weird. When most epic stories are winding UP, King winds his DOWN. It feels like the story just gets smaller and smaller as it goes... UNTIL we get to the epilogue, and then I am 110% behind the epilogue / resolution. I think it was the perfect ending, but it can be a polarizing discussion.
  • My least favorite book was Wolves of the Calla. It almost stopped me from finishing the series, it took me nine months to get through it. I just did not care for it and found it very boring. I had to push on through sheer will, and then things improved.
  • The extra book (The Wind through the Keyhole) is a "fill-in" narrative for an earlier part of the story but is definitely worth reading.
  • I love the Wheel, the ka-tet, the beams and their assignations, I love the tie-in to IT.
Anyway... been some years since i got through it. but I might reread parts of it in the future.

side note: The 90 minute film that seemed to be well-cast is just terrible if you were expecting anything like the books. Consider it to be a 90 minute playground with various elements snatched from the seven books, with no real reflection on the actual story.
 

Totenkindly

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I think the ending makes a lot of sense (and is the perfect end) when we recall that Ka is a wheel, and that the ka-tet is everything -- but what is Roland's track record with his ka-tet?

One of Roland's prime traits is his ruthless pragmatism, and that even with people he cares about, he will sacrifice whatever he needs to (note: Big focus on Jake here, this is a very explicated dilemma for ROland for a lot of page space) to get revenge or accomplish his aims. Roland's very first big decision (when he faces exile in order to become a gunslinger way early, at age 14) is to sacrifice his comrade to win. Brilliant, but pragmatic and ruthless to a fault. There is little compassion there when Roland has his mind set on something.

Ka (similar to Karma) is trying to temper this part of Roland and we see actual progress in his character, but it's all just very painful. The epilogue pulls back the curtain on this process and makes it all very clear, but also clarifies that Roland is slowly changinh with each revolution. THings might be staying the same in a lot of ways, but there are a few significant changes, and it provides hope for the future.
 

The Cat

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I think the ending makes a lot of sense (and is the perfect end) when we recall that Ka is a wheel, and that the ka-tet is everything -- but what is Roland's track record with his ka-tet?

One of Roland's prime traits is his ruthless pragmatism, and that even with people he cares about, he will sacrifice whatever he needs to (note: Big focus on Jake here, this is a very explicated dilemma for ROland for a lot of page space) to get revenge or accomplish his aims. Roland's very first big decision (when he faces exile in order to become a gunslinger way early, at age 14) is to sacrifice his comrade to win. Brilliant, but pragmatic and ruthless to a fault. There is little compassion there when Roland has his mind set on something.

Ka (similar to Karma) is trying to temper this part of Roland and we see actual progress in his character, but it's all just very painful. The epilogue pulls back the curtain on this process and makes it all very clear, but also clarifies that Roland is slowly changinh with each revolution. THings might be staying the same in a lot of ways, but there are a few significant changes, and it provides hope for the future.
I like that to me the ending suggests that no story ends. Stories like life are cyclical. I like to imagine all the ways it went different before. How much worse. How this reading was unfolding with the echoes of how it went in previous readings. Very effective uses of prophecy as deja vu. I like how there was something that happened in this reading that touched the tower enough to give him the hope of Cuthbert's Horn. I like to imagine that in the next reading he wont drop Jake. And because of that. Eddie won't catch an unfortunate bullet. Susanah will stay with the erasers, Oy will live, and the Crimson king will be fully erased.

Regarding Walter being Randal Flagg, I can believe that once upon a time there was a man named Walter who made a deal with a travelling peddler and the thing that walked away from that deal was the Hard Case, The Walking Dude, Randal Flagg, Richard Fannen, Robert Franq, et al. Mordred could no more consume Randal Flagg than Randal Flagg can ever die. He's like the Cancer Cowboy in John Connely's Nocturnes, he is eternal if not technically immortal. That's one of the things that makes him such a fascinating villain for me. He's the kind of cosmic horror fae monstrosity that can still fear its demise, even though that is nothing more than a painful(both physically and to the ego) inconvienience, BECAUSE everytime he gets killed in one dream he has to start all over again in another. The knowledge of what it is always comes to a seemingly regular man who fits a description.

I dont really believe that Randal Flagg would just approach Modred. I do think he could possess the body of a man name Walter overtime becoming Martin Broadcloak and the Man in Black. Leland Gaunt and Randal Flagg are based in part of Lovecraft's Nyarlathotep and Chamber's King in Yellow, both figures adopt different avatars over time and depending on where they show up.

I just know Stephen King will never be rid of Randal Flagg as long as he lives. Eyes of the Dragon kind of seals that deal for me. If you get a chance the audiobook is read by Bronson Pinchot and holy jumping jiminy he does a fantastic job. So did Stephen Webber with IT. Randal Flagg is the big thing that I feel that Stephen King contributed to the Mythos cycle. And he's contributed a lot.

I cant fault him too much for writing himself into the story, it gave me a little something extra to the childhood part of myself that saw the perfect little gnome hole in a tree over at my great aunts just like on David The Gnome and my world became more magical than it might have otherwise been. This as corny as it was, brought me back to that.

Wolves of Cala was a slog, thank god for audio books at work because i can still love it in a way that i wouldnt have had the time to in book form. The whole concept of the Low men and the hidden society of monsters influencing the mundane world without our knowledge. I just if i could i would inject that into my veins. Maybe I got into WOD too young idk but it just rocks all the socks for some reason.

I think Cuthbert is my favorite character. I wouldnt mind some more wind through the key hole asides with Cuthbert, Allain and Jaime.

I would sooner wear an I drink Nozzola than a Coca Cola tshirt though.
 

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It's been so long since i have read this, but I have to imagine Suzanne Collins read this series, due to the Char-you tree bit in W&G which predates her Hunger Games book and its Hanging Tree -- it just "feels" very much the same.

I really do like when they bust into the Dixie Pig in the last book with all those fucking ancient bestial vampires and Callahan has his moment in the sun. Just a great stretch of writing.

I like Flagg a LOT in The Stand. I just don't feel it much here. I remember really being indifferent to The Eyes of the Dragon when it came out around the same time as IT. Pretty much reading things in is conjecture, so I don't have a lot of allowance for it if King didn't explain more skillfully. It could just be my memory is faulty, but the incarnations were just not close enough to convince me.

God, now Mordred is in my head-space again. I obsess over that character. It's so chilling when he meets up with Walter and Walter finds himself completely outmatched. It's kind of a trope character in a way, although trope sounds negative and I don't mean it that way. But we've seen it before, the child with powers of a god (or at least far beyond mortal ken) who is ... still a child and has those needs as well -- needs for food, security, safety, affection, even love and unconditional acceptance. (Like Darian (?) in the Fionavar Tapestry, for example.) But their power also corrupts them and terrifies those without it.

Roland will eventually find rest. Just not today. But one day. I have faith.
 

The Cat

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It's been so long since i have read this, but I have to imagine Suzanne Collins read this series, due to the Char-you tree bit in W&G which predates her Hunger Games book and its Hanging Tree -- it just "feels" very much the same.

I really do like when they bust into the Dixie Pig in the last book with all those fucking ancient bestial vampires and Callahan has his moment in the sun. Just a great stretch of writing.

I like Flagg a LOT in The Stand. I just don't feel it much here. I remember really being indifferent to The Eyes of the Dragon when it came out around the same time as IT. Pretty much reading things in is conjecture, so I don't have a lot of allowance for it if King didn't explain more skillfully. It could just be my memory is faulty, but the incarnations were just not close enough to convince me.

God, now Mordred is in my head-space again. I obsess over that character. It's so chilling when he meets up with Walter and Walter finds himself completely outmatched.

Roland will eventually find rest. Just not today. But one day. I have faith.
Walter may have been the King's servant. But Mordred was his son.

Flagg in the stand is just a lot of fun. That's my halloween costume this year.
This video here is what's so hard to believe that Walter IS Randall Flagg rather than Walter Was just part of Randall Flagg. Perhaps the last truly human part that he sent to Mordred to rid himself of that final frailty. Who can say. Naraku from Inuyasha is based on a nyarlanthotep type cosmic horror, and it just is hard to believe that he went out like that or even if he did, that he'll stay gone, which I mean technically he doesnt. So in many ways Randal Flagg is Roland's soul shadow racing for the tower from the other side of ka.
Mordred reminds of the hunger of the Deadlights, while Dandelo reminds me of its personality. I'd love to hear some of your obsessions on Mordred. He's a fascinating character that I utterly despise.
 

The Cat

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The ending gave me such hope. It was terrifying but filled me with hope. We should all be so lucky. The whole ka tet will one day stand in the top of the tower.
 

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The ending gave me such hope. It was terrifying but filled me with hope. We should all be so lucky. The whole ka tet will one day stand in the top of the tower.
... I wish we were assured of the same things in real life.
 

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Mordred reminds of the hunger of the Deadlights, while Dandelo reminds me of its personality. I'd love to hear some of your obsessions on Mordred. He's a fascinating character that I utterly despise.
I can't say I despise him, because he didn't ask for what he was born as. I mean, what a fucked-up heritage... the Scarlet King's son, and also Roland's son, and insane Mia's child. He is basically a godling trapped in a baby's form, so when he's human he can barely do anything for himself and can't even communicate, but when he changes into a spider he loses human rationale and mostly gets turned up to 11, full of LUST and HUNGER and RENDING. Kind of a toss-up, that you are growing at an insane rate but need blood (and eventually human blood) to power that growth or you'll die.

Babies are all about hunger, and we've seen enough of the non-human kingdom to know there are species that eat their mates and/or other relatives.

(And really, wasn't the Mordred of lore also fucked up because of the circumstances surrounding his own birth? In the popular mythical telling, Arthur kills all the babies born on May Day but somehow Mordred -- typically his nephew, although I've seen tellings where Mordred is the product of an illicit unison, rape or otherwise, of Morgawse and Arthur -- is snuck out and raised secretly. Is it any wonder he grew up to be such a thorn in Arthur's side and to be maladjusted?)

I mean, some of the obsession is simply just wonder and shock like all the bondsmen around during his birth who see him come out, then change into a mewling spider and desiccate his own mother while suckling at her teat. (they are so caught up in the moment that Susannah guns a lot of them down and even wings Mordred.)

But it's such a fucked-up moment. Birth is supposed to be something wonderful for a mother, and yet she gives birth to a monster who didn't ask to be a monster, and when the monster instinctively devours her in such a painful way, she just lets him because it is her child, it's like a lifetime of motherhood condensed into 2 minutes vs mothers who are slow-drained by their child they can't deny 20-40 years or more into the future.

Just this weird dichotomy of being so powerful and yet constricted by one's own form and shape. He manages to sucker Walter by playing the baby card, until he gets a grip on him so Walter cannot flee, and then forces this ancient power to rip out his own eyes and tongue to feed them to it -- which seems cruel versus just necessary -- then devours him alive. Again, though, does Mordred actually have any other options? He's alone, he ate his own mother at birth, he has no one to raise or teach him a better way if any exists, and he can barely care for himself and has to give himself over to the spider instincts if he is to even live more than a day. I guess the cruelty is in HOW he does? Versus what he does? But then again -- he knows that Walter (while pretending to be his friend) was actually planning to kill him and amputate his foot for Walter to use to get into the Tower. (What if Walter had actually befriended Mordred and had him offer to take him into the Tower? Was that an option at all?) So did Walter actually deserve any kindness since he just happened to be murdered by Mordred before he could murder Mordred.

It's not much different from the actual obsession of just watching as one crafty animal waylays, entraps, and devours another animal while you sit quietly and watch (like watching a spider catch a fly). It's horrific yet fascinating. So alien to one's own life and understanding. But if it were to happen to you, it would be horrific.
 
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