[Fe] FJs, describe Fe as you understand it

[Cellmold]

Ima break character a second here to actually make a 'post':

Being Fe dominant my perception used to be, superficially, that:

Fe is existent - It exists to be justified because it exists, Fe rules are mainly useful for Fe.

Fi is insistent - It insists on existing and justifies itself without licence from others, Fi rules are rules of the self's values and can be useful for anyone.

Obviously I was simplifying massively when I said that, especially with regards to 'rules' but values are a type of rule to many people. But Fe....Fe...Fe......

Ok I'll try this: It's a rational system of organising conduct of behaviour to match with externally defined culture contexts the purpose of which is (to an extent) to depersonalise the individual for the purpose of common goals....a 'house divided' and all that shit. It is also why Fe dominants are often extremely awkward in new scenarios as they don't 'understand the rules' yet. No function lives in a vacuum though, and the presence of different functions I think results in different forms, but I'm too lazy and maybe lack the quality of thought to put that into a decent description.


I experience it as the anxiety of what others think, even those who I should have little reason to care about the opinion of. It's like an enemy to thought in my head and that would fit since Ti is the internalised logic of an individual using impersonal data compared to Fe. It's just annoying and unhealthy; pent up frustrations and issues that are held in because of bullshit immaterial notions that anyone else outside of stronger Fe-preferenced people even care.

It's pretty much the ultimate selfishness. The act of appearing to care for others when really it's all about the individual's image within a grouping. And while I hold to all people being ultimately selfish (though not necessarily a negative as we can have degrees of selfishness that end up being mutually beneficial and then those that are only damaging < to give some extreme examples) I find strong Fe to be the worst perversion of this.

I never actually liked helping others though, or doing things for others. I find it difficult to comfort and project warmth, especially as there is little reason for me to feel it. But I still did, I understand the role and attempted to fit it.

I had an extremely heavy extraverted feeling upbringing. "Appropriate" was a word I learned to hate, because it often followed punishment. And so I learned, far too slowly and dumbly, that appropriate was also a step towards genocide, though not to the extent of it must be that outcome, because of slippery slope fallacy.

However in a milder, day to day way, the case of appropriate becomes the case of the justified punishment. I dislike that and see the trap in modern systems of crime and punishment that make use of it.

Loyalty is not to all groups but to A group and Fe is able to discern. But those practised responses and arbitrary interactions are very very hollow and extremely boring. I think Fe exists only to be balanced out with moderations of thought and self-inspection.

It's the only way it will ever cause movement to growth in the Fe-able. It's basically about spending enormous amounts of energy undoing the damage and restrictions that polarised Fe mentalities induce in the first place.

Might just be me though.

Ps: also lots of gut reactions with Fe. Lots of, what can only be described as living on the chemical reactions of an assumption.

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

I def relate to these descriptions as an inferior feeling user. It's like...you know it's there. You're not quite sure what to do with it, but it somehow makes the other things work better so you do what you can with it even though it makes you feel awkward af when you try to hard at it lol.

My interactions with STPs is that they're some of the most generous people that I know. Like if I got lost in the woods and stumbled upon some ISTP dudes cabin. He'd like, take me in, share his food, then help me back to the road and wouldn't thinking about it much one way or the other. Y'all manage to be decent people without making much of a fuss about being that way because it's just obviously the right thing to do.

Mmhmm. Just don't ask for a goodbye hug :backout:

 

[á´…eparted]

So I'll start by saying this is how my Fe approaches this, which is going to be a lot "stricker" than other Fe doms, largely due to my 1 influence. That said, I think the general principal will apply to most Fe doms, and some Fe auxs.

Ok. Follow up question: what's the deal with Fe and recognition/hierarchy?

It's about discernment and information condensing. Simply put: there are some people who's opinions, thoughts, feelings, etc. are so frequently wrong, often to a fundementally broken base of information, and they can not be changed in their ways. These individuals are regarded on a "lower" position, and they aren't to be factored into things.

Think of it this way, say you have a small group of people that need to collectively vote to make decisions, but one individual consistently votes wrong, or votes against everyone every single time. The reason could be out of spite, it could be out of false information, it could be that they're just stupid. In any case, they make a mess of things. The best thing to do is just, well... ignore them. What good or value to they bring in? What benefit do they have? All they do is screw things up, and rather consistently. Fe would much rather "eliminate" them (in one form or another) than attempt to reform them. Trying to reform them would take a lot of effort, and distract from the big picture.

Granted, the above is sort of a practical approach to it, but it goes beyond that. Fe uses this to triage who to listen to, or who to not. One must consider the nature of what they know, and what they do. If those bases prove to be faulty, it's fair and easy to assume most of what they say and do will be bad or wrong, they can simply be ignored from their input. Considering every single one of their arguments, actions, etc. would be a profound waste of time. It's not all finite though. Sometimes, these individuals can be correct, insightful, or even change over time. Someones perceived "status" can and does change, but if an individual is really far up, or really far down, they're very unlikely to move in position.

Theoretically, if everyone is a part of one interconnected super entity, then why do Fe users care about status? Shouldn't everyone be on the same level?

The thing is... everyone is on the same level, and also not at the same time. It's not entirely binary. An individual can be regarded as higher up (I'm using the terms high and low just to denote a position on a subjective scale) in many areas, but low in others. Fe can and does discern between that if there is reason for it, and honestly most of the time there is. Fe does have objective standards that everyone is subjected to regardless of position. However, the way Fe approach individuals will qualatatively be different. For example, take two individuals: one high position, one low position. They both screw something up in the same way. The high position individual is going to be told off and subjected to whatever would be fitting for such an action. BUT their position is going to effect the vibe of how that is done. In this case it's likely to be reaffirming as in "k this is bad, you screwed up, and xyz will happen out of fairness". Where as a low position individual will get "You screwed up, you're getting xyz. too bad deal with it." in a MUCH colder manner.

On some level, Fi users feel the same about the "drop in the ocean" in how we relate to others. Our approach is more outside in. I think there's an intrinsic understanding of Fi as the soul and the soul as one drop of some ineffable greater thing that we're all connected to.

That's why we look inwards for empathy. It's not that we assume that our personal experience is universal per se, as Forever said, but that we're all essentially "one" in some cosmic sense. Turning inward brings us closer to that greater whole, and is a big part if why we take a fairly democratic approach to our worldview.

That's really alien to me. To Fe how we all relate to others is SO huge. Like, it's everything. Fe's kinda cold. It sees the interconnectedness. It does not feel it, as "feeling" it would be distracting, and oddly miss the big picture.

Again, no shade, just trying to understand. What is your take on how status and social hierarchy squares with that sense of connectedness at a group level?

Hopefully this makes some sembalance of sense. It's kind of hard to explain because this is a surprisingly automatic process that doesn't really require a lot of conscious thought on my end. The hardest thing actually is forcing a demeanor that goes against someones position, that must be done because the situation called for it. That does require conscious thought, and if Fe is hurting it will mess it up; the classic case where Fe gets extremely sharp.

 

[Duffy]

Ok. Follow up question: what's the deal with Fe and recognition/hierarchy?

Theoretically, if everyone is a part of one interconnected super entity, then why do Fe users care about status? Shouldn't everyone be on the same level?

I don't know the answer, but I suspect part of it is in some of the things you've used to phrase your question, like idea of "interconnectedness." I think that "interconnectedness" is what drives (certain) Fe users to desire status in the first place, or to "prove" to others. I imagine the cliché where a teen gets upset with a parent and declares, "I'm nothing like you," and goes on to rebel. Then you see their actions sort of betray and dilute their conviction. I mean, if you constantly feel the need to "prove" yourself in situations, then do you really have any agency? Your response is always tethered to something, and you inadvertently relinquish independence. I think the same idea applies to love, hate, and apathy, with the constant being attachments, or the feeling of connectedness. No attachments = apathy. I also don't think this necessarily equates to everyone being on the same level, but even if this was the case, it's all the more reason (and understandable) to desire status and separation. Probably veer off into solipsism a bit here.

On a side note, I think a similar, seemingly, paradoxical thinking occurs in Fi types: "Everybody is unique."

 

[Jaguar]

I think what I'm gathering from these responses is that the biggest difference between Fi and Fe is scope.

For an Fi-user, the "whole" is defined at an individual level, whereas for Fe it is defined at a group level. The way that an Fi user feels about the body is the way that an Fe user feels about the community, which is why they (Fe) users place less emphasis on individual opinion.

Nurse Ratched: The group and its members behaving appropriately is all that matters. Icy bitch.

 

[AphroditeGoneAwry]

My favorite ice bitch characters:

 

[Chrysanthe]

Coming from the perspective of an XXXX, I can definitely relate to Hard's idea of how Fe desires to "Eliminate" those who appear to be counterproductive to whatever goals you may trying to achieve. I can essentially, if a person(s) has ideas which completely defy what I "know", "turn them off." By that I mean, I no longer see them as a human with a voice but rather a void which can be ignored whenever I feel like it.

I also do this when there is an emotional disconnect between me and another. In middle school for example I had been involved with a Gamma group... until a year later one person in that group expressed negative sentiments of me, and so I dismissed not only that person, but also extrapolated that to the entire group, and refused to be associated with them until that one person stopped being a bitch around me, since it was either me or her who had to leave until such emotional distress came to an end. I considered being around that group parasitic to my health and acted as if I never even knew them... unless one of them approached me first, in which case I did talk to them as a person rather than the group.

 

[Yama]

I don't know if this is true of Fe so much as it is feeling in general, but here's an example of what it's like for me. It's easier for me to describe an event than to try to talk about it abstractly.

Last February, I had a job interview for a customer service position at a grocery store in the afternoon. Early that morning, my mother called me and said she had found a stay cat on her property that wasn't one of the ferals (there is a clan of feral cats that live in her work property that she has put through the trap-and-release program, and she knew this one wasn't one of them; she could tell it was a lost/stay cat, but not feral). It was sick and needed to go to the vet, but she had to work. So I drove to her house (which is also part of her work property, it's weird) to pick up the cat and take it to the vet.

I'm allergic to cats. I don't have a lot of experience handling cats. But we got the cat into a cat carrier and put it in my car. I got directions to the vet and drove there. My car radio was broken so I sung to the cat on the drive over because I was sick of the silence. When we got to the vet, I awkwardly took the cat carreir out of the car and tried to find the entrance--it was this really weird building and I wasn't sure where exactly to go. I saw a woman through a gate that was connected to the back door of one of these building in this giant maze and asked her where the entrance was, and she pointed it out to me.

Finally, we were at the vet. Checking in was awkward because they asked what the cat's name was. "It doesn't have a name, it's just a random cat we found." That's what I said. Confusion was cleared up when we looked under my mom's name. Apparently she had registered the cat as "Puff" for the appointment because they needed a name to put in the system, but she hadn't told me. So "Puff" and I finally were able to see the vet. Things happened, it got tested for feline leukemia and tested positive. The vet said it was really bad and that the only real thing we could do was put the cat down, and that it may have already spread the disease to the other ferals in the area as well.

It hit me like a brick. They gave Puff some stuff to make him fall asleep and left the room. I chose to stay and pet him while he lost consciousness. The whole time I was choking back tears with such force that my throat was in pain. Eventually they came back and said I didn't need to stay for the actual euthanization part. I grabbed the cat carrier and ran out of the building. I passed the gate where I had asked for directions, only when I passed the gate the first time, there was a cat in this cat carrier and this time there wasn't. I ran to my car, sat there, and cried for a very, very long time.

I didn't know this cat. I didn't even really care about this cat. It's a cat that I had only just met less than two hours ago to take to the vet for my mom. But when I woke up that morning I didn't think I was going to be bringing a sick cat to the vet to die, that I was going to sit by its side while it closed its eyes for the last time, because I didn't want it to be alone. Because the cat really was all alone. It must have belonged to someone up until a few months ago, because it didn't look anything like the ferals in either body shape or size or anything else. And I would never be able to find Puff's previous owners and tell them that I scratched their cat's ears while it was being put down and that I sang songs to it on the car ride to the vet without even knowing that it wouldn't be there with me on the ride back to my mom's house, where I returned the now-empty cat carrier to her.

I was already an emotional trainwreck when I arrived home and my friend texted me to tell me that Monty Oum, an animator for Rooster Teeth and creator of RWBY, passed away that day. Now there was even more to cry about. I got dressed and prepared for my interview in tears, got back in my car, drove to the place, wiped my tears away, and walked inside. The interviewer would never have guessed how my morning had gone. I can't say I was all smiles because I have a major case of resting bitchface and always forget to smile, but I was cheerful and polite and I was hired on the spot because they said I was perfect for the job.

After that I went back to my car, drove home in silence, and cried some more. I can't listen to that song I sang anymore without thinking of Puff. Even just recounting this story is getting me emotional again.

I often say that I'm not an open book and that people usually think I'm angry all the time. This is true at school, or home, or in public--when I'm feeling neutral. But when something hits me that suddenly and that strongly, it's impossible for me to hold my initial reaction back--I needed to get out of that building, I needed to get to my car so I could let the tears spill out of my eyes already. I needed time to let it out before I could gain enough composure to go through with my interview. It's the ultimate facade.

Again, not sure if it's exclusively an Fe thing or a feeling thing in general, but I thought I'd share.

 

[elcie]

[MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] sounds kind of Fi to me? The way you identified with the cat, empathised etc... I don't know that I would've felt as strongly as you did, maybe my Fe is less developed though.

 

[Yama]

[MENTION=23583]21lux[/MENTION] sounds kind of Fi to me? The way you identified with the cat, empathised etc... I don't know that I would've felt as strongly as you did, maybe my Fe is less developed though.

Normally I would say I would never react with strong emotions like that, as I usually never express any emotion that strongly around people I don't know well, but in the few cases where something really gets to me like that, it is very hard to contain and has to come out somehow. I wouldn't say you have less developed Fe, mine is kind of a mess

 

[elcie]

Normally I would say I would never react with strong emotions like that, as I usually never express any emotion that strongly around people I don't know well, but in the few cases where something really gets to me like that, it is very hard to contain and has to come out somehow. I wouldn't say you have less developed Fe, mine is kind of a mess

From what you say it sounds like you empathise well and come across well to others (read something about customers liking you?) can't be that bad? Maybe you have more Fe than you think? Not to want to invalidate your concerns tho.

 

[Haven]

I think all the talk about social bonding and harmony, external values, and devaluing personal experience might be products of Fe, but it's not what Fe is about. To me, Fe is like an approximation of what's universally good or bad. It's mainly concerned with the expressions between people rather than what's going on inside. Different people could have the exact same experience and come away from it with completely different impressions, so it's not really trustworthy. It's a bit odd that an event can produce an entire spectrum of reactions among a group of people, but we should attempt to do the "most good" that we can. Both facts and subjective experience can mislead us, the only way to see the kind of life we're living is in the impact we have on others.

Also, interstellar

 

[Tilt]

I think all the talk about social bonding and harmony, external values, and devaluing personal experience might be products of Fe, but it's not what Fe is about. To me, Fe is like an approximation of what's universally good or bad. It's mainly concerned with the expressions between people rather than what's going on inside. Different people could have the exact same experience and come away from it with completely different impressions, so it's not really trustworthy. It's a bit odd that an event can produce an entire spectrum of reactions among a group of people, but we should attempt to do the "most good" that we can. Both facts and subjective experience can mislead us, the only way to see the kind of life we're living is in the impact we have on others.

Also, interstellar

I have been in groups with several EFJs where they will all have their own idea of what is best for the group or overall objectives...and it ends up being hours of back-and-forth. So it's not like being Fe-dom makes us brain-dead followers of social protocol like some people would like to believe!

 

[Yama]

From what you say it sounds like you empathise well and come across well to others (read something about customers liking you?) can't be that bad? Maybe you have more Fe than you think? Not to want to invalidate your concerns tho.

Maybe -- I have been realizing recently that I'm probably a lot more typical than I can see for myself as I find it hard for me to understand myself. I probably become blinded by over-analysis.

 

[Virtual ghost]

To me, this is Fe:

Exactly. It looks very nice and very powerful but it can't hold concrete problems under control even if lifes depend upon it. :Te/Fi user:

 

[Tilt]

Maybe -- I have been realizing recently that I'm probably a lot more typical than I can see for myself as I find it hard for me to understand myself. I probably become blinded by over-analysis.

You're so Fe it hurts... I think you're just repulsed by the idea that Fe = mindless drones to social protocol.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I think it goes beyond the "mindless drone" stigma- there's also a big association between Fi and integrity, honesty, authenticity, authentic empathy, etc. I think there are more than a few FJs who identify as NFP because they can honestly say these things are a priority to them. Beyond simply having an identity revolving around these characteristics (which Fi types are at least equally prone to)- I mean I truly believe these characteristics can be just as much an authentic priority in FJs.

I personally think they became part of the Fi shtick because Fi dom/aux seem to need to work through the details of such things immediately, when there's an incongruity between one's own values and an external value system- whereas FJs tend to tuck such incongruities away for internal processing. It's there, but it's invisible- and invisible doesn't mean absent.

At its very best, Fe is the master of effective, solution-oriented diplomacy and acts as conduit for seamless synergy between people. Most people just eat up SKILLED Fe because it becomes the invisible force that keeps synergy and the overall mood of the environment up... it's just really smooth, not overbearing or controlling, and rather charming.

Caveat - I am making a distinction between SKILLED vs. strong preference because having a strong preference =/= SKILLED.

Yeah. Put a skilled FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who comes across very much as that type. Put a strong preferenced FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who has created the FJ stereotype.

 

[Yama]

You're so Fe it hurts... I think you're just repulsed by the idea that Fe = mindless drones to social protocol.

Very much so--I think the Fe stereotypes wouldn't bother me nearly as much if they weren't such a popular and widespread misconception that I don't see all too many people challenging. Actually, my being fed up with Fe stereotypes is what prompted my initial creation of this thread, and after seeing its educational benefits... I want more function threads!

I think it goes beyond the "mindless drone" stigma- there's also a big association between Fi and integrity, honesty, authenticity, authentic empathy, etc. I think there are more than a few FJs who identify as NFP because they can honestly say these things are a priority to them. Beyond simply having an identity revolving around these characteristics (which Fi types are at least equally prone to)- I mean I truly believe these characteristics can be just as much an authentic priority in FJs.

I personally think they became part of the Fi shtick because Fi dom/aux seem to need to work through the details of such things immediately, when there's an incongruity between one's own values and an external value system- whereas FJs tend to tuck such incongruities away for internal processing. It's there, but it's invisible- and invisible doesn't mean absent.

Yeah. Put a skilled FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who comes across very much as that type. Put a strong preferenced FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who has created the FJ stereotype.

This reminds me of [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION]'s thread and I totally agree.

It's what's made it so hard for me to see Fe in my own self--a lot of descriptions out there just make Fe sound so undesirable and inflated and fake compared to Fi that based off those alone without all my other sources and knowledge about MBTI gathered over the years, I wouldn't be able to imagine myself let alone anyone else as an Fe type.

And it must make it hard for the FPs too--if there are some people who mistake themselves for (N)FPs when they are really FJs because of bad descriptions giving them bad information, how do we know what's really an FP quality, and what's a quality of FJ-gone-FP? Which is another thing that was mentioned in Starry's thread, but I think still holds true for Fe and Fi in general.

I think your second paragraph too is really important--perhaps the "tucking away" that FJs need to do to process is a Pi vs Pe thing (in the case of FJ/FP)?

 

[Zentrifulgal]

I am interested if Fe doms (and aux) are having good control over their emotions.
Because my Fe is in the weak tertiary position and when I'm in a bad mood for example, I can't really pull myself out of it on my own.

 

[elcie]

Maybe -- I have been realizing recently that I'm probably a lot more typical than I can see for myself as I find it hard for me to understand myself. I probably become blinded by over-analysis.

Maybe, I have that tendency too! I don't relate much to ISFJ descriptions/stereotypes either. I guess they are interpretations of the functions, but reading the function descriptions more "raw" like in psychological types, I relate a lot better.