[Fe] FJs, describe Fe as you understand it

[Tennessee Jed]

INFP here, giving an outside view on how Fe works:

Some time ago, I went to a discussion group led by an INFJ and heavily populated by INFJs, ISFJs, ENFJs, and even an ESFJ or two in there, I expect.

The priority was on harmony, giving everyone a chance to speak, being supportive, etc. Discordant opinions were frowned-upon. If someone tried to object or speak out of turn, a frequent comeback from the group toward non-Fe-users was, "Who gave YOU the right to judge other people?!?!?"

I attended a couple meetings of the group. To me it just seemed like they were blathering for social purposes: Create an echo chamber of similar minds and similar opinions based on info gleaned from politically correct 15-minute "TED talks," and then imagine that their unanimity and harmony was an indication that they had somehow cracked the universe's code together. It was like a church: Sing in four-part harmony like an angelic chorus. It didn't really matter what the song was; they just got a rush from working together like a well-oiled machine.

Anyway, that probably sounds like a rant on my part. It's actually not; as an INFP, I was interested in how their Fe worked.

But in the end, it wasn't a good fit for me. It actually reminded me of a slow-moving business meeting: Go around the table, get input from all the departments one by one, get everyone on board, no disruptions, no disagreements. Just go through the motions and get everyone to sign off on whatever decision the leader intended to make anyway. Like attending a business meeting for two hours on a Sunday afternoon. I couldn't take it. I need more drama and more back-and-forth to keep me engaged.

Oh well, just my impression.

 

[Gogol]

I could not agree with this more but I have a question. Why do you need validation? Because you are so sensitive to it that validation lessens the sensitivity? Because you gotta be right about other's moods, body language, etc? What happens when you are wrong?

In the broad sense the focus is on the outside for harmony. If people are upset around me, I want it to go away. Whether to make them feel better if I know them. Sometimes I take others moods too personally this is because in part I feel responsible for the harmony around me.
I guess I need validation because im sensitive to the surrounding people and take some responsibility for their mood.

 

[Yama]

Fellow FJs, I have a question for you!

How did your Fe manifest as a child? Was it very apparent? Did it seem to develop for you early, or late?

I ask because I think my Fe was a lot more obvious as a child. I'm sure it's still there now, but now it has some Ti and a pinch of Ne to balance it out (with Si of course). But when I was a kid I relied pretty heavily upon Fe all the time, so it's easier for me to see it in my past self than my present self. Is it the same or different for you?

 

[Forever]

Fellow FJs, I have a question for you!

How did your Fe manifest as a child? Was it very apparent? Did it seem to develop for you early, or late?

I ask because I think my Fe was a lot more obvious as a child. I'm sure it's still there now, but now it has some Ti and a pinch of Ne to balance it out (with Si of course). But when I was a kid I relied pretty heavily upon Fe all the time, so it's easier for me to see it in my past self than my present self. Is it the same or different for you?

I cared about what others felt at very early age even though I somehow instinctively knew how to be friends and act with those around me accordingly. Weird to think about huh? Because some would theorize your dominant function would only really be of use at that age. Perhaps introverts had to quickly learn? Idk my Fe was high self-monitoring and I could very well feel guilt if or had I done someone wrong. I never found girls gross like other boys did. It didn't make sense to me.

 

[Haven]

Fellow FJs, I have a question for you!

How did your Fe manifest as a child? Was it very apparent? Did it seem to develop for you early, or late?

It developed very early in that I was as whiny a brat as I could muster. I was always strongly affected by other people's emotions, it didn't seem to matter if it was directed at me or if it was between other people. It really hurt when I was told to butt out of other people's business. I got in trouble for talking too much in class, being a show off and a know it all, and never doing my homework, I just assumed that everyone knew the stuff as well as I did. This was all before I turned 10.

 

[thoughtlost]

INFP here, giving an outside view on how Fe works:

Some time ago, I went to a discussion group led by an INFJ and heavily populated by INFJs, ISFJs, ENFJs, and even an ESFJ or two in there, I expect.

The priority was on harmony, giving everyone a chance to speak, being supportive, etc. Discordant opinions were frowned-upon. If someone tried to object or speak out of turn, a frequent comeback from the group toward non-Fe-users was, "Who gave YOU the right to judge other people?!?!?"

I attended a couple meetings of the group. To me it just seemed like they were blathering for social purposes: Create an echo chamber of similar minds and similar opinions based on info gleaned from politically correct 15-minute "TED talks," and then imagine that their unanimity and harmony was an indication that they had somehow cracked the universe's code together. It was like a church: Sing in four-part harmony like an angelic chorus. It didn't really matter what the song was; they just got a rush from working together like a well-oiled machine.

Anyway, that probably sounds like a rant on my part. It's actually not; as an INFP, I was interested in how their Fe worked.

But in the end, it wasn't a good fit for me. It actually reminded me of a slow-moving business meeting: Go around the table, get input from all the departments one by one, get everyone on board, no disruptions, no disagreements. Just go through the motions and get everyone to sign off on whatever decision the leader intended to make anyway. Like attending a business meeting for two hours on a Sunday afternoon. I couldn't take it. I need more drama and more back-and-forth to keep me engaged.

Oh well, just my impression.

This makes sense, in a way. I noticed with Ne users, if they experience something and ask others about their thoughts on it they are comfortable with someone saying "no, think this for this reason". It's because Ne is more comfortable with seeing things in different ways. However, they take that differing persepectives AT FACE VALUE...something that I don't do... I dig deeper. I analyze things too much, even my own perceptions. Ne is not tied to its OWN individual experience of something. It's more "expansivie" than the introverted side of perceiving the world.

Ni and Si are more intensive. So when they experience things ....it's weird for someone to tell us that's now how it is.

What I don't agree with is that we frown upon discordant opinions and need everyone to agree. We don't, we just need to take a longer time to "reconstruct" the other person's experience to understand it. So in this case, INFPs probably find conversations with IxFJs much slower and laborious. Being an introverted person makes me realize that other people WILL experience things in different ways, and I am wiling to explore that... it just means that I end up asking too many questions to try to get to a singular "truth" that encompasses all the different experiences. ...but yes, it's a slow process so I understand why you'd be frustrated.

I don't know if that's what you're talking about ...but that's how I've experienced things.

 

[á´…eparted]

I have several things to respond to and/or answer in this thread so I'll do it in parts. I appologize if I miss anything/anyone.

I don't know about that. The E1 is a reformer. They want to see a just and fair environment. e.g.

From https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-1/

It seems that Fe could very well orient someone in that same direction. Not that they're a one-on-match, but they're not completely contradictory, either.

Right? Not right?

You're absolutely right, Fe can and does mesh with E1. The thing is, I've grown to understand and associate E1 with a Te mindset with a mild Si influence. If you look at it from a distance, Te and E1 really do share a lot in common, and they work together in harmony rather well.

With Fe it doesn't quite work that way. In essence, E1 wants objectivity, but Fe works in the subjective world. The external world, but the subjective one at that. When you try and mix those to together, it can result in some rather unusual presentations and logic. It sort of makes Fe run into over-drive mode and. She's not here anymore, but I've been told a bit about Proteamix (who apparently is an ENFJ 1w2) and I see a lot of commonalitiy between those stories of her nature, and myself. This leads me to believe this is not something that is unique to me, but is a trait associated with a combination of Fe/Ni and 1w2. Basically, being a 1 compels me to follow a strict code of morals and conduct (to the point where it's rediculous sometimes), and because Fe is so focused on the social world, it can lead to some rediculous social rigidity and convoluted right-wrong systems, and by virtue of that, coldness that isn't seen to that level in Fe. That's sort of what I mean by "twisting Fe".

 

[á´…eparted]

I could not agree with this more but I have a question. Why do you need validation? Because you are so sensitive to it that validation lessens the sensitivity? Because you gotta be right about other's moods, body language, etc? What happens when you are wrong?

I don't really think of it as "validation" but more of "justification". Since Fe operates in the external world, and often deals with other people, it needs to hear or see from other people if what is said and done is justified, or on other words "valid". It strongly dislikes relying on internal thoughts of assumptions to garner this information. For an Fe-dom, doing those sorts of internal things is greatly frowned upon, unless there is some sort of precedent that can be used, which isn't all the time. Fe really does not like to make mistakes, because it shows "holes" in its systems and thinking, which will often then require pulling Ti into the mixture, which can easily lead to abyss funneling which is really really unfun.

 

[á´…eparted]

Fellow FJs, I have a question for you!

How did your Fe manifest as a child? Was it very apparent? Did it seem to develop for you early, or late?

I ask because I think my Fe was a lot more obvious as a child. I'm sure it's still there now, but now it has some Ti and a pinch of Ne to balance it out (with Si of course). But when I was a kid I relied pretty heavily upon Fe all the time, so it's easier for me to see it in my past self than my present self. Is it the same or different for you?

I was a... difficult child. As previously mentioned I was diagnosed with Asperger's when I was 9 years old, so that does influence this some.

When I was a very young child (ages 2-6), I was extremely gregarious and friendly. I was also a motor-mouth. My parents sort of dreaded taking me to the store, because I would proceed to talk to pretty much everyone, in particular if they looked interesting. I'd run up to a check-out lady in the super market and go "Hi! My name's Hard! What's yours? Do you like working here? What did you have for breakfast this morning? Did you have any kids? How old are they? Can I talk on the intercom? Oh look at all this candy! I like the blue gum, what do you like?" Of course I paused between questions to wait for answers and have a discussion. Apparently most people found me extremely endeering, but I also would run people in the ground because I wouldn't stop until I was told to, or until something more interesting grabbed my attention.

Really that was the manifestation of Fe in fixation on the social world, and wanting to understand it. Ironic given I was totally clueless to social cues. To me though, by talking to people I was pulling double duty- I was enjoying talking to someone and getting to know someone (which really was the spice of life for me at that age), and also learning about the world in the process through social exchanges.

My Fe also manifested in constantly wanting to be in charge and be the leader. Before I can even really remember, my parents would jokingly refer to me as "King Hard" because I had the sort of presence and aptitude to lead people. My mom recalls me standing in the kitchen pretending to act as "conductor" as she and others cooked, where I would pretend to be the lead and telling all the adults instructions on what to do and what not. I was pretending and I knew that, I wasn't actually trying to insert myself, but I LOVED it when they did listen! With my peers I was the same. I always wanted to be line leader. I always wanted to be team captain. I always wanted to be #1. This was my Fe manifesting in it's desire to lead and control the social circles around me. I had no malintent behind any of it. I simply liked it, and thought I did a good job at it. Obviously I was little and a social dummy so I frequently screwed up (which resulted in lots of crying), but it did not deter me and occasionally I would get it right and it felt so good when I did get it right.

As I got older my gregariousness died down because I socially fucked up too often, and I realized through lots of whacks on the nose that it didn't work well. I was still very social, and still did much of it wrong, but that fearlessness of approach and holding ones own did not return to me completely until I was 24 (I am currently 26). I still tried and wanted to lead though. It was very difficult because I was not well respected due to my weirdness. But, occasionally I would garner it, and everyone would usually be impressed with what I did. It usually involved playing tag with large groups of people. I wasn't physically skilled, but I had very good direction and was very creative.

I was constantly paying attention to who was who, who did what, who knew what, and tried to map social circles in my elementry school. Given my elementry school only had about 160 students K-6, it wasn't too difficult. Really the biggest sign of Fe inside my head was how early I began coming up with stratified tiers of people. Who was "high" who was "low", why they were or weren't where they were, and all that.

Granted, I thought I was an INFJ from the ages of 14-23, but a lot of that came from getting bonked on the nose all the time due to Asperger's. I became a social outcast in 7th grade, and had to change school districts. That made me "wake up" just enough to stop learning through trial and error, and more so through observation. Cue hitting puberty at the same time and learning what the term "self conscious" was, and I assumed that lacking self-confidance and hiding = introversion for the longest time. In hindsight, I was never an introvert.

 

[Chrysanthe]

Fellow FJs, I have a question for you!

How did your Fe manifest as a child? Was it very apparent? Did it seem to develop for you early, or late?

I ask because I think my Fe was a lot more obvious as a child. I'm sure it's still there now, but now it has some Ti and a pinch of Ne to balance it out (with Si of course). But when I was a kid I relied pretty heavily upon Fe all the time, so it's easier for me to see it in my past self than my present self. Is it the same or different for you?

Hm... not sure I can remember even possessing any definite Extraverted functions during my childhood, but I do remember being extremely sensitive to criticism and would always do what others would be doing in order to fit in (though that could just be any child learning from those with more experience). And I would always get upset when my siblings or I were being yelled at by my dad for usually reasons of incompetence and general acts of childish rebellion, and would always try to contrast that by being more careful and soft with my own words when talking to anyone else so as to not further anyone's emotional distress, even though it may have just been a petty argument which I over-exaggerated the emotional intensity of at the time. Usually whenever my younger brother had been emotionally scarred by my parent's rants about good behaviour, he would come up to my room and vent, and I would only respond agreeably even if I disagreed with him, and would let him get it off his mind by playing video games or whatever together, which I wouldn't have done otherwise cause I mostly stayed to myself in my room all day and disliked others intruding upon my own activities.

 

[Amargith]

Mmm...question..how do you feel sympathy/empathy integrates with your Fe?
What I mean is - there's a lot of talk about maintaining the mood, working the room for harmony, and feeling inferior and guilty if you disrupt the environment without at least turning it into something better. Meanwhile though, Fe is also tied with sympathy and understanding of people. So how does the merging of that desire to maintain harmony and dealing with disruptive people work? What makes the scales tip in favour of helping them and sympathising with them and what makes it tip the other way, where they'll be scolded for disrupting the environment?

 

[Tilt]

It developed very early in that I was as whiny a brat as I could muster. I was always strongly affected by other people's emotions, it didn't seem to matter if it was directed at me or if it was between other people. It really hurt when I was told to butt out of other people's business. I got in trouble for talking too much in class, being a show off and a know it all, and never doing my homework, I just assumed that everyone knew the stuff as well as I did. This was all before I turned 10.

Very similar to my experience except I was hyper sensitive about getting into trouble and was deemed a "goody two shoes". I would get awards for "respecting others" and "student of the month". However, at certain phases, I would also get in trouble regularly but would toe the line just enough to escape any real repercussions. Fe is really good at picking up the nuances to game the social system in subtle ways.

 

[Tilt]

Mmm...question..how do you feel sympathy/empathy integrates with your Fe?
What I mean is - there's a lot of talk about maintaining the mood, working the room for harmony, and feeling inferior and guilty if you disrupt the environment without at least turning it into something better. Meanwhile though, Fe is also tied with sympathy and understanding of people. So how does the merging of that desire to maintain harmony and dealing with disruptive people work? What makes the scales tip in favour of helping them and sympathising with them and what makes it tip the other way, where they'll be scolded for disrupting the environment?

I think in terms of a cost/benefit analysis. Is it worthwhile to bring up the issue? Will I ever need to interact with the person again? How important is the person's role in the group? What is the purpose of the interaction? Why am I frustrated (is it my own issue)?

 

[21%]

Mmm...question..how do you feel sympathy/empathy integrates with your Fe?
What I mean is - there's a lot of talk about maintaining the mood, working the room for harmony, and feeling inferior and guilty if you disrupt the environment without at least turning it into something better. Meanwhile though, Fe is also tied with sympathy and understanding of people. So how does the merging of that desire to maintain harmony and dealing with disruptive people work? What makes the scales tip in favour of helping them and sympathising with them and what makes it tip the other way, where they'll be scolded for disrupting the environment?

I think the key is whether you show awareness of the situation or not. For example, if we are alone and you want to vent, an Fe person would be very happy to listen and help. However, if, let's say, we're in the middle of a gathering, and everyone is happy and cheery, and someone suddenly starts venting about something very negative and makes everyone feel uncomfortable, then Fe would probably disapprove. Ultimately they will still want to listen and help, but they will think "Why now? Why don't you wait for a slightly more appropriate time?"

That said, if it's a real emergency please feel free to 'disrupt the mood' (and if you don't all Fe people will feel bad that they didn't pick up on the emergency and ask you to share)

I guess to put it simply, the 'needs' are weighed, and the person with the highest 'needs' get the group support. If your needs do not exceed the groups' collective needs, you are expected to find a better time to ask the group to deal with it. If you just broke up with your SO or your dog just died and you're really distressed, your needs are high on the list. You get priority in this case. This is not considered disrupting the mood. However, if your issue is about something minor (that doesn't seem that important) and you keep going on and on about it and spoil the mood, it's deemed to be an inconsiderate act which is frowned upon.

I can sympathize with someone and at the same time disapprove of the way they expressed themselves.

 

[Cellmold]

Mmm...question..how do you feel sympathy/empathy integrates with your Fe?
What I mean is - there's a lot of talk about maintaining the mood, working the room for harmony, and feeling inferior and guilty if you disrupt the environment without at least turning it into something better. Meanwhile though, Fe is also tied with sympathy and understanding of people. So how does the merging of that desire to maintain harmony and dealing with disruptive people work? What makes the scales tip in favour of helping them and sympathising with them and what makes it tip the other way, where they'll be scolded for disrupting the environment?

Well there is Ti at the end of the scale. I would say from my observations that Fe does do that scolding, but if you ignore it or persist they don't really have anywhere to go and resort to what they perceive as a more confrontational state which makes use of their weaker functions.

So Ne + Ti in ESFJ, for example, results in lots of speculative assumptions about people's motives for disrupting 'harmony' in a social environment. And since they devalue those functions as they are weak in them themselves (sideline point but I think people tend to devalue that which they are poor at or rather less comfortable cogitating in because of ego protection) and project that out as conflict. It's also why they might perceive Ne + Ti as deliberately motivated to criticise them, even if it is impersonal and without individual direction in the Ne + Ti perception and intent.

Basically in that state Fe doms are complete pricks. Being direct is essentially their last state of being although I've noticed many (myself included) being more direct online. Possibly because Ti is more prevalent and they don't have a direct social context to flow with in real time like face to face interaction allows.

What tips the scales in that situation is I think largely a matter of the stubbornness of those involved, especially the Fe dom themselves. If the person is suitably kow-towed and pulled into social line then the problem subsides, but if the person persists in attacking (in the Fe perception of it) or disrupting in some other way, the social harmonies, then eventually communication breaks down and the Fe dom goes into inferior destruct mode and pretty much wants the other person to suffer or be removed from being in the social grouping somehow so they don't have to deal with the challenge posed by communication based on weaker states of cognition.

Right and wrong being relativistic for them, but inherently so since it adheres to and relies upon different social groupings for reference, it's not a conscious understanding or questioning of why; they stick to what is assumed. Ironically for all that social effort and easy communication Fe doms generally don't communicate well the deeper reasoning behind those invisible social rules, it might even be that they can't. And this raises an interesting point about the strength of emotional investment they rely on and the essential fear or opposition to social chaos.

I think even ENFJs (who are more prone to getting bored with static reality and like to move things on) has this essential rigidity from their dominant function that causes implicit dislike of socially chaotic interaction. Part of this is their need for externally defined customs to help define themselves and partly because they just 'know' it to be wrong in some inexplicable way. There is a slippery slope fallacy at the heart of it which I think could be paraphrased as "If we can't get along then we're all doomed"

 

[Duffy]

What tips the scales in that situation is I think largely a matter of the stubbornness of those involved, especially the Fe dom themselves. If the person is suitably kow-towed and pulled into social line then the problem subsides, but if the person persists in attacking (in the Fe perception of it) or disrupting in some other way, the social harmonies, then eventually communication breaks down and the Fe dom goes into inferior destruct mode and pretty much wants the other person to suffer or be removed from being in the social grouping somehow so they don't have to deal with the challenge posed by communication based on weaker states of cognition.

Right and wrong being relativistic for them, but inherently so since it adheres to and relies upon different social groupings for reference, it's not a conscious understanding or questioning of why; they stick to what is assumed. Ironically for all that social effort and easy communication Fe doms generally don't communicate well the deeper reasoning behind those invisible social rules, it might even be that they can't. And this raises an interesting point about the strength of emotional investment they rely on and the essential fear or opposition to social chaos.

This sums up every interaction I've had with FJs, specifically SFJs. It's also the main point of contention between my aunt and her son, who's some sort of leading extro-perceiving type. She calls him the "ruiner," as if to say he's purposely going out of his way to sabotage everything she's built. There's a naivety in Pe doms and I think some types, like Pi/Je types, just don't understand that anyone could be this way and so ascribe their perspective onto the other, resulting in baseless accusations.

 

[ceecee]

In the broad sense the focus is on the outside for harmony. If people are upset around me, I want it to go away. Whether to make them feel better if I know them. Sometimes I take others moods too personally this is because in part I feel responsible for the harmony around me.
I guess I need validation because im sensitive to the surrounding people and take some responsibility for their mood.

So this is really about you and your feelings and less of a pressing need to lead a peace accord with the people around you who are upset. What if they tell you to back off - do you? Or do you just press on until you piss everyone off even more?

I'm asking you this directly, I've had other FJ's tell me when it comes down to it, no, they don't really care. They care about how the disharmony makes them feel and want to end it in any way possible. One common denominator here is that all FJ's that have told me this have been young. I think the older you get, the less uncomfortable you become with conflict, in general. This is true of my ENFJ and I can see it in others.

 

[thoughtlost]

Mmm...question..how do you feel sympathy/empathy integrates with your Fe?
What I mean is - there's a lot of talk about maintaining the mood, working the room for harmony, and feeling inferior and guilty if you disrupt the environment without at least turning it into something better. Meanwhile though, Fe is also tied with sympathy and understanding of people. So how does the merging of that desire to maintain harmony and dealing with disruptive people work? What makes the scales tip in favour of helping them and sympathising with them and what makes it tip the other way, where they'll be scolded for disrupting the environment?

...as I was saying before my computer RUDELY interrupted me -_-"

This sort of confuses me. For me, Fe isn't about a "collective" energy and everyone must adhere to that. That's not fair. It's kind of like what [MENTION=6971]21%[/MENTION] said. Please do express yourself if you feel the need to. I'll definitely feel bad/guilty if we don't notice that you're trying to communicate something. Or even if you're not trying to connect ...I just expect ourselves to be in tune with those sort of things, so I'll be shocked that I "missed" you.

So I don't think that my Fe works in a way that I don't want to pay attention to your individual feeling tones/experiences and/or think that you're being inappropriate, but I can get lost in the established feeling tones that is more predominant... hence missing out on your way of being/feeling. No feeling is inappropriate for me.

But an action can be. Therefore, with me, it's better to be as "raw" with your emotions as you possibly can if you need to express yourself. Don't mess it up with some kind of action or reasoning that deters from it, otherwise you could be misunderstood or questioned ...by anyone, I've noticed. This semester was a weird one because I'd be feeling/in a certain state and it come across as strange to others. Like I was avoiding them and they couldn't understand why and just got a cold vibe from me ...it caused a mess. Eventually, they sat down me and told me that how I am behaving wasn't the best and that I needed to communicate/check in more.

 

[Gogol]

So this is really about you and your feelings and less of a pressing need to lead a peace accord with the people around you who are upset. What if they tell you to back off - do you? Or do you just press on until you piss everyone off even more?

I'm asking you this directly, I've had other FJ's tell me when it comes down to it, no, they don't really care. They care about how the disharmony makes them feel and want to end it in any way possible. One common denominator here is that all FJ's that have told me this have been young. I think the older you get, the less uncomfortable you become with conflict, in general. This is true of my ENFJ and I can see it in others.

I was gonna include in the original that I am aware how selfish this behavior can be but I figured there is enough of that sentiment out there it that it would be brought up on its own. Why is it that mostly INTJs (based on various esfj hate threads) like to bring this up?

Do I care about how others really feel? Only those close to me.

In most cases I do not actively engage others. If they want to be left alone I leave people alone to deal with their own feelings. If they are doing something actively disruptive and we are in a public space or work than they are emparting their shit on me and I would want them to leave and figure it out on their own time space terms.


So to sum up, the older I get the more Si I develop and let other people be. If they are miserable or upset it is usually their own issues so let them deal with it however they like. This leaves me to use Fe Si with people I genuinely care about.

 

[ceecee]

I was gonna include in the original that I am aware how selfish this behavior can be but I figured there is enough of that sentiment out there it that it would be brought up on its own. Why is it that mostly INTJs (based on various esfj hate threads) like to bring this up?

This is a fair question. My honest answer is - I don't know that others see it and interpret it the way that we do. There is also enneagram coming into play here, for me I feel that more than anything else in this matter - You push me, you will get the very worst of me in return. I have an ENFJ, I know well what this compulsion to get away from conflict is. It just seems that it's nearly impossible to convey that the way FJ's interpret a conflict, is not how others, including the people in a conflict, always interpret a conflict. I don't think there is an INTJ/ENTJ and certainly not an e8 out there that thinks conflict is inherently bad. It can be stupid and it can be unproductive but it's never - bad and must be stopped. It's a case by case thing and most importantly - it's not always your (FJ's) call to make. That's the big sticking point