[Fe] FJs, describe Fe as you understand it

[Tilt]

I think it goes beyond the "mindless drone" stigma- there's also a big association between Fi and integrity, honesty, authenticity, authentic empathy, etc. I think there are more than a few FJs who identify as NFP because they can honestly say these things are a priority to them. Beyond simply having an identity revolving around these characteristics (which Fi types are at least equally prone to)- I mean I truly believe these characteristics can be just as much an authentic priority in FJs.

I personally think they became part of the Fi shtick because Fi dom/aux seem to need to work through the details of such things immediately, when there's an incongruity between one's own values and an external value system- whereas FJs tend to tuck such incongruities away for internal processing. It's there, but it's invisible- and invisible doesn't mean absent.




Yeah. Put a skilled FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who comes across very much as that type. Put a strong preferenced FJ in the middle of a group of any other type- and you'll end up with someone who has created the FJ stereotype.

Totally, I actually clung to an INFJ typing for several years because I was kind of wary of the association of being fake, illogical, and overly emotional... at least the "Ni dominance" could act as a buffer from the stigma. I saw Ni use within myself, but it was much more hidden from view than the other INFJs... it seemed to be communicated through a more direct, concrete Fe+Se filter (I don't have the patience or interest to read or write long walls of text and want ideas to be clear, concise, and organized).

The fact I am more reserved and don't seem to desire taking control of lot of situations make people assume I am more of an introvert.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

And it must make it hard for the FPs too--if there are some people who mistake themselves for (N)FPs when they are really FJs because of bad descriptions giving them bad information, how do we know what's really an FP quality, and what's a quality of FJ-gone-FP? Which is another thing that was mentioned in Starry's thread, but I think still holds true for Fe and Fi in general.

There's a fair amount of this with INFJs too- people identifying as INFJ because of the description, or something. While I'm a strong advocate of just leaving someone's type identification alone- it does become a hindrance in discussing a type and the type's inclinations. Conversations stop being of any interest to me when NF hubris takes over and it's just a bunch of people getting together to establish a desired identity- and unfortunately, across the internet, that's how a great many discussions about/with supposed INFJs sound to me. This forum is actually the only place I've found other INFJs who I actually feel any amount of similarity with.

I think it's actually quite common for ISxPs to mis-identify as INFJs too- and not even for the usual "special snowflake" reasons, but because they honestly have a very similar outlook on things. I think ISPs and INJs can have a comparable 'theory vs. reality' threshold (and a certain irritation for people who talk the talk without ever walking the walk, and who can't even seem to be able to tell the difference- I'm looking at you, Ne). xSxP descriptions typically make them sound so plebian- like they were born to fix cars/repair furnaces- that's it's no wonder many of them with a more philosophical drive turn to INxJ descriptions. Again- it's not a case of someone picking a type based on what they wish they were (identity), but I can see how SPs could earnestly and authentically identify more with INxJ descriptions (iow: seeking some bigger truth > fixing cars/painting stuff) because S descriptions are as crappy as Fe descriptions.

So anyway, yeah, crappy type descriptions for both S and Fe do become a hindrance. Because people can earnestly identify with the wrong type as a result, and sort of clog up any actual progress where type discussion is concerned.

I think your second paragraph too is really important--perhaps the "tucking away" that FJs need to do to process is a Pi vs Pe thing (in the case of FJ/FP)?

I do plan on posting a more thoroughly laid out theory on Pi/Ji difference (to bounce off others/see if they relate)- in the Fe wiki page thread I started- when it takes just a little more shape for me. As Starry aptly anticipated.

 

[Gogol]

There is enough Fe hatred out there already so I hope this doesn't contribute more to it.

Fe to me is hyperawareness of other people's moods, reactions, body language and wanting to get validation. It is this nagging "should" in the back of my head that governs my actions towards others, even when internally it is counter to what I believe. There is an avoidance of conflict inherent in it even at the expense of sacrificing internal values. Sometimes after the naggin Fe tells me to act a certain way I feel that it is dishonest and counter to how I actually feel. There is an inauthentic quality about it that I am very aware of like it is an externally imposed standard on my actions. The stereotype is of this jolly Fe- ESFJ that is just out there to be merry and make sure everybody is around them is happy. I see it more as something that is imposed on me this need to want to get validation and to make sure everyone is not angry at me. This is not because I care about them, but because my Fe tells me that it is the right thing to do. When consulting my own Si, I find some balance but it looks like mine is not well developed enough yet to handle Fe dominance. Maybe this is what out of control Fe looks like just wanting to "help" and for everyone to be happy and taking shit personally all the time when it is not able to achieve that. Fe is also good on picking up people's expressions and combined with Fe/Ti is able to pick up on people's insecurities easily as well and use that to control the situation. If someone is very rude and domineering instead of confronting it head on, I would make some kind of incisive remark about the person that would on the surface not be over aggression but enough to let them know that I am aware of their insecurities.

What I like about Fe is that it can be in touch with how the group feels and regulate the situation based on that. Group mood awareness? It is able to provide comfort to those who I value. And it is able to tailor message to a person based on the Fe/Ti assessment of a person. Compared to Fi that would take forever to truly understand a person by gathering info about their value system, Fe would get a snapshot of a person as they are at the current moment and base actions on that.

I will add that I'm not in the healthiest place right now, which in some ways makes me more honest with myself but also biased in focusing on the negative. So yes, Fe is burden to me, but it may have more to do with the type of norms that I grew up with and my life experience in general. There is plenty of those who don't even question their own Fe and are very much happy being aware and helpful.
Having grown up with an ESFJ parent and been around one when they were unhealthy I know what it is like to be "cared for" in an Fe way, to be asked constantly about if I want something or how I'm feeling only to quiet their own insecurities, need for validation or sense of duty.

My question is is there a healthy Fe out there and what does that look like? What are the positives? Is my experience the result of a weak aux function?

 

[Amargith]

Question (@Hard inspired, but others can reply if they wish to):

If you had a solution to solve the issue with the 'lower' people - kind of like health care for physical problems exists - would you then be more considerate of their 'healing' process, knowing that it would likely pay off to regain them as resources or would that still be considered as too much effort for not enough pay-off?

And how low can a person...go. At what point does their suffering no longer matter to you, and are they no longer entitled to being treated with at least the basest of respect? Or is one always entitled to at least being treated with respect and dignity, and part of the tribe, aka help being available when they ask for it?

Does the value of what a person contributes to society determine their inherent value to Fe? Is it contingent? Or is the fact that they are a living being enough to value them at least in some way?

And what about other species - whether they contribute to our society or not?

And for that matter - if other species would not have any inherent value, do they now, now that they have a vital role in our ecosystem and that ecosystem is under pressure from climate change? Will their station change again once that threat passes?


...ok, too many questions, options and what ifs in my head, sorry

 

[Tilt]

Question (@Hard inspired, but others can reply if they wish to):

If you had a solution to solve the issue with the 'lower' people - kind of like health care for physical problems exists - would you then be more considerate of their 'healing' process, knowing that it would likely pay off to regain them as resources or would that still be considered as too much effort for not enough pay-off?

And how low can a person...go. At what point does their suffering no longer matter to you, and are they no longer entitled to being treated with at least the basest of respect? Or is one always entitled to at least being treated with respect and dignity, and part of the tribe, aka help being available when they ask for it?

Does the value of what a person contributes to society determine their inherent value to Fe? Is it contingent? Or is the fact that they are a living being enough to value them at least in some way?

And what about other species - whether they contribute to our society or not?

And for that matter - if other species would not have any inherent value, do they now, now that they have a vital role in our ecosystem and that ecosystem is under pressure from climate change? Will their station change again once that threat passes?


...ok, too many questions, options and what ifs in my head, sorry

This line of questioning seems rather foreign to me. For me, I would consider how all the parts play into the bigger picture. Everything has its own unique value? There are very few things that would make me *deem* a person as not worthy of "respect".

 

[Amargith]

This line of questioning seems rather foreign to me. For me, I would consider how all the parts play into the bigger picture. Everything has its own unique value? There are very few things that would make me *deem* a person as not worthy of "respect".

Sorry, it's mostly inspired by post #83 by Hard.

 

[Tilt]

Sorry, it's mostly inspired by post #83 by Hard.

ohhh... that makes sense. I really dislike hierarchical systems of authority. I will play into them to get what I need using the path of least resistance but at the end of the day, I secretly mock them. Enneagram types could have a little something to do with it. I am 3w4, 5w6, 9w8 SP/SX.

 

[á´…eparted]

Question (@Hard inspired, but others can reply if they wish to):

If you had a solution to solve the issue with the 'lower' people - kind of like health care for physical problems exists - would you then be more considerate of their 'healing' process, knowing that it would likely pay off to regain them as resources or would that still be considered as too much effort for not enough pay-off?

It really depends. Most of the time, what I'll do is look for someone who has the skills to fix the problem (potentially anyway), and I will rarely do it myself. Partly because I know I will not be able to completely block out my anger, and thus the fixing process will be marred by own reactions. Practically speaking, I really can't be the one to do it. When push comes to shove though I can manage, and will generally attempt to do so as fast as possible. A large problem is people who are regarded as lower, are frequently seen as bad or fundementally broken, so I'll already assume nothing can be done and won't even look for someone else who could fix it as I do not want their time to be wasted. Frequently because the people who can fix, are often too easily taken advantage of and don't know when to drop causes. I also would gain zero satisfaction from fixing them.

And how low can a person...go. At what point does their suffering no longer matter to you, and are they no longer entitled to being treated with at least the basest of respect? Or is one always entitled to at least being treated with respect and dignity, and part of the tribe, aka help being available when they ask for it?

It doesn't take me much to not care about their suffering. If it goes strong enough I will find myself wanting to impart suffering on them, but I strongly resist that urge as I know it's wrong. Basically, I do my best to ignore someone is low outright, and will go out of my way to keep distance. There are several people in my department (two of them being professors) who are like this. I just completely keep out of their way. If I am forced to interact with them, I am as neutral and distant as I can be. That is, until they say or do something that fits within the basis of me despising them in the first place. THEN I will stop respecting them, and will do something about what their doing. I frequently have to do this with one of these professors as I have been assigned to TA for him in the past. I simply wait for him to leave, and then I go against what he told me to do, and in the process prove that my decision was right, and he was just pulling a lumburg again (he's EXACTLY like him if you've ever seen the movie Office Space).

If they came to me though and directly asked for help on something they mess up... I might help. My gut instinct would actually be to do so, and I would have to purposfully go against that if they asked for help. The only time I would instantly say no is if I regarded them as TRULY harmful. Take for example, someone who is anti-vaccine (and publically advocating for that), or bigotly religious and actively advocates for that. There is a small list of values and behaviors that instantly make me write someone off, and they would have to demonstrate over a long period of time that they have let go of those harmful views, AND fix the fundementally broken thinking that brought on that mindset and values in the first place. The latter almost never happens, so I rarely go back. Part of the reason I require that to be fixed, is because if that broken thinking is still there, they will just continue to create new problems in other areas, and thus will continue to be a mess. It is a waste of my time.

Does the value of what a person contributes to society determine their inherent value to Fe? Is it contingent? Or is the fact that they are a living being enough to value them at least in some way?

Sort of. It's a factor for it anyway. Someone could live in a way I don't agree with, contributes little to society, but at the same time isn't really harmful in anyway, and is of value to people they know. In those cases I sort of just scratch my head confused, and let them be unless I am forced to constantly interact with them or be around them on some level. The basic requirement of a person is they can't be harmful or damaging. Sometimes though I will get iffy and pushy against people like this if they are deeply imbeded in my social group. Often, it seems like they stink it up and I hate their presence. That said, if everyone seems to value and like them, I bite my tongue and try to make best of it. This sort of thing happens FREQUENTLY, as I am really picky with people. If I actually went after everyone I disliked, I would obliterate my social circles and that's not the right thing to do. I'll only push if the majority starts to have a problem. Hell, if most people have a problem with someone, and I don't, I'll still do something about it.

And what about other species - whether they contribute to our society or not?

That's another area I don't really think about. I'm quite anthropocentric at the end of the day. Yet, I'm also someone that feels horrible if I step on a slug while walking home (god it's pathetic, GO AWAY FEELINGS). I generally look at other species very coldly though, but I sort of look at people as a bulk rather coldly as well.

And for that matter - if other species would not have any inherent value, do they now, now that they have a vital role in our ecosystem and that ecosystem is under pressure from climate change? Will their station change again once that threat passes?

I didn't point this out, but I don't think any living thing has inherient value. Value is created. That said, for functional purposes I will have to act like there is inherent value, as if I don't things won't function. I also recognize that value varies from person to person, so I try to take the value of other species as collective. Again though, this seldom crosses my mind; I let people who are animal focused by and large deal with it, as I know I don't have the clearest of fairest thinking with it. Let experts do their whole thing and all that.

...ok, too many questions, options and what ifs in my head, sorry

No worries. I have a hedache after helping my students rotovap diethyl ether and I am quite woozy. This is helping fix that . Hopefully this answers your questions. I can try and clarify if things are off (as I know I missed a few things from being light-hea

 

[á´…eparted]

ohhh... that makes sense. I really dislike hierarchical systems of authority. I will play into them to get what I need using the path of least resistance but at the end of the day, I secretly mock them. Enneagram types could have a little something to do with it. I am 3w4, 5w6, 9w8 SP/SX.

Yeah I am thinking this could be the interplay and influence that being a 1w2 imparts on being ENFJ (in particular after writing the above post). It's sort of an unusual enneagram match up and rather twists Fe quite a bit since they're sort of at odds but work together seamlessly. I've been wanting to either make a thread on it, or just make a blog posts detailing it out.

In a way, I feel like Fe isn't "supposed" to be E1, even though it can.

 

[Amargith]

^Thanks Hard!

If any FJs want to spin off of his answers, now that there is more context, I'm all for that!

 

[Z Buck McFate]

Yeah I am thinking this could be the interplay and influence that being a 1w2 imparts on being ENFJ (in particular after writing the above post). It's sort of an unusual enneagram match up and rather twists Fe quite a bit since they're sort of at odds but work together seamlessly. I've been wanting to either make a thread on it, or just make a blog posts detailing it out.

In a way, I feel like Fe isn't "supposed" to be E1, even though it can.

Hard, don't you have Aspergers? Am I remembering that incorrectly? It's possible I'm thinking of someone else. But if you do, I suspect that would have a significant influence as well- perhaps even more than enneagram type.

Not that it's especially important- but it seems to me worth mentioning.

 

[á´…eparted]

Hard, don't you have Aspergers? Am I remembering that incorrectly? It's possible I'm thinking of someone else. But if you do, I suspect that would have a significant influence as well- perhaps even more than enneagram type.

Not that it's especially important- but it seems to me worth mentioning.

You're correct, I do. It's extremely well managed, and most people don't notice it until they have known me for a long time, or I point it out to them. I have resolved most issues associated with it as I can get along in social worlds quite efficiently now, but sometimes I get blindsided with something I have no template for. A recent example is how pervasive forum meet-ups in person have been, and the extent they went. Easily 95% higher than I anticipated. It still sort of blows my mind and I am still synthesisizng this new tidbit. [MENTION=4945]EJCC[/MENTION] and I were talking about it in vent the other day actually. I assumed others operated as I do, but this was such a new social dymanic that any templates I had didn't work.

 

[Tilt]

Yeah I am thinking this could be the interplay and influence that being a 1w2 imparts on being ENFJ (in particular after writing the above post). It's sort of an unusual enneagram match up and rather twists Fe quite a bit since they're sort of at odds but work together seamlessly. I've been wanting to either make a thread on it, or just make a blog posts detailing it out.

In a way, I feel like Fe isn't "supposed" to be E1, even though it can.

Quite interesting. Although it may be uncommon, I could see how ENFJ could line up with e1. The Fe+Ni combo can create a vision of how things and people could be and fuels really high expectations. There is a certain vibe of exceedingly high standards and disappointment. However, e1 would probably tone down the lofty idealism of the average ENFJ.

 

[thoughtlost]

I think I have a decent example of Fe.

Yesterday, my mom and brother were fighting as usual, so I did my best to mediate. Mediating isn't inherently Fe, but how I mediated probably was.

My mom was frustrated about something my brother did/didn't do. Which is fine. It's fine to be frustrated; my brother did do something that was really annoying/financially costly. That's not why I stepped in. I stepped in because although it's fine to be frustrated and want a solution, it's not fine to sound like a bully. She kept on talking to him in a way that would even make me frustrated. All it did was create bitterness between two people instead of creating an environment in which they could think of ways to solve the problem.

So I stepped in on behalf of my brother, to tell my mom that it's not nice/helpful to anyone to talk to him the way she was. She dismissed me, saying that she is my mother, so she can talk to us however she wants and we shouldn't "retaliate". I told her "yes, we shouldn't "fight back" but that doesn't make what you're doing okay." I tried to tell her that a person's emotions/psychological state really does matter when you're communicating your own emotions ...so if you're going to get angry at him for breaking your car and you want to communicate that, then I don't think you should nag about how much money he owes you for other things and angrily complain about how careless he is. I know what my brother did and has done. I am sure that he does feel bad that he broke your car, but he's forced to ignore that when someone is yelling at him. So when my brother "retaliates" ...he can't show/express his remorse in the way that feels comfortable for him BECAUSE someone is yelling/berating him for messing up.

In the process of telling my mom this, I had to deny her the validation I could sense her seeking. She wanted me to continue to point the finger at my brother (or so it seemed). That would have just kept the emotional situation the same (meaning my brother would continue to feel attacked) instead of producing a better one on one interaction between them. She is right about feeling frustrated. But she isn't "right" about making someone feel like a dysfunctional person. I did my best to cater to the fact that she wants the issue solved ...so I said: "If you want your car fixed, we need to come up with an "action" that would fix it ...and part of that action is not making my brother feel like a loser because it's not working, as you can see. How about we try talking to him in a way that he is motivated HIMSELF to fix the car." Likewise, if you want to express an emotion or something to another ....then say it in a way that gets your feeling acknowledged in a mutually beneficial way.

So Fe is about understanding the emotional/psychological atmosphere. It is like Te ...but sensitive to the individual.

 

[Bush]

I stepped in because although it's fine to be frustrated and want a solution, it's not fine to sound like a bully. She kept on talking to him in a way that would even make me frustrated. All it did was create bitterness between two people instead of creating an environment in which they could think of ways to solve the problem.

So I stepped in on behalf of my brother, to tell my mom that it's not nice/helpful to anyone to talk to him the way she was.

Disregarding functions for a moment, I guess, I totally relate. I did this sort of thing so damn much that I thought it was just natural.. and that it was common fucking sense. I was surprised to learn that it wasn't.

If someone calls you to vent about how their pet hamster just died, telling them e.g. "well just get over it" is about the least helpful thing you can do. Not only does it make you a total dick, it's also counterproductive. There's a problem out there, and it ain't gonna be solved that way. If you're trying to be a problem-solver, well.. you're a bad problem solver. Unless the problem that you're trying to solve is 'them not hating me.' In that case, you're golden.

What are they going to think? "Oh, hey; you're right! I should just get over it! Thank you!" ?

I do remember my sister calling my dad up for something, him making some oblivious comment or suggestion or something, and then me taking the phone and yelling "Hey! That's not what she needs right now!!" Being me, I don't remember the details. At all.

 

[Bush]

Yeah I am thinking this could be the interplay and influence that being a 1w2 imparts on being ENFJ (in particular after writing the above post). It's sort of an unusual enneagram match up and rather twists Fe quite a bit since they're sort of at odds but work together seamlessly. I've been wanting to either make a thread on it, or just make a blog posts detailing it out.

In a way, I feel like Fe isn't "supposed" to be E1, even though it can.

I don't know about that. The E1 is a reformer. They want to see a just and fair environment. e.g.

From https://www.enneagraminstitute.com/type-1/

They strive to overcome adversity—particularly moral adversity—so that the human spirit can shine through and make a difference. They strive after “higher values,” even at the cost of great personal sacrifice.

It seems that Fe could very well orient someone in that same direction. Not that they're a one-on-match, but they're not completely contradictory, either.

Right? Not right?

ohhh... that makes sense. I really dislike hierarchical systems of authority. I will play into them to get what I need using the path of least resistance but at the end of the day, I secretly mock them. Enneagram types could have a little something to do with it. I am 3w4, 5w6, 9w8 SP/SX.

Same on all counts. Even the Enneatype! Except for a few minuscule details in the tritype (3w4, 6w5, 9w1 sp/sx).

At the end of the day, hierarchies are just organizational structures. They're heuristics. They're just signs. For the life of me, I can never take them seriously.

Like -- "Oh, yes; while it'd be more effective to just hand this report to my boss's boss so that we can all move things forward already, the hierarchy tells me that it needs to go through my boss first."

However, following that sort of hierarchical structure does mean that your boss's boss that your boss is responsible if you royally mess things up. So it can be useful!

 

[thoughtlost]

Disregarding functions for a moment, I guess, I totally relate. I did this sort of thing so damn much that I thought it was just natural.. and that it was common fucking sense. I was surprised to learn that it wasn't.

If someone calls you to vent about how their pet hamster just died, telling them e.g. "well just get over it" is about the least helpful thing you can do. Not only does it make you a total dick, it's also counterproductive. There's a problem out there, and it ain't gonna be solved that way. If you're trying to be a problem-solver, well.. you're a bad problem solver. Unless the problem that you're trying to solve is 'them not hating me.' In that case, you're golden.

What are they going to think? "Oh, hey; you're right! I should just get over it! Thank you!" ?

I do remember my sister calling my dad up for something, him making some oblivious comment or suggestion or something, and then me taking the phone and yelling "Hey! That's not what she needs right now!!" Being me, I don't remember the details. At all.

lol yeah.

However, I am not always understanding towards venters. Sometimes, when someone vents to me, I am making "Fe" judgments about the venting. Are they just trash-talking someone else? Are they being overly-dramatic as a psychological coping mechanism? Moments such as those, I won't be genuinely supportive of their emotional "actions" although I can understand the internal motivations for doing so. But the action is not the "right" emotional route to go down, even if it's just affecting themselves. I cannot tell them this, though ...as it's not easy for some to here. So when this happens, intellectually, I know I should hold my tongue. So this is easiest to do around acquaintances/people who aren't "relevant" to me ...but if you're a close friend of mine ...I might not be able to, as I am pretty honest about how I see things.

So I need a very fine-tuned understanding of the individual and their situation in order to decide if their particular venting is "worth it" or not. ...Although, other motivations coming from myself can interfere with the ease of this process (so I can be blinded by my own motivations to be as objective as Fe needs me to be).

 

[her-space-holiday]

I'm really quite introverted, married to my me time, but when I am socially "on" then I am on. People tend to think I'm a lot more happy go lucky and extroverted than I actually am.

I'm naturally friendly and warm, and it's important to me to feel like I'm being polite and respectful and it seems people usually think I'm more wholesome and innocent than I actually am. My sense of humor is definitely dark, I appreciate wit, sarcasm, cynicism and silliness - preferably all rolled together, and people tell me that I am really funny but you would never hear something really crass or gross come out of my mouth, nor would you hear something blatantly mean or cruel unless I was really really REALLY pushed, in which case I can burn a hole through people with my glare and know exactly which button to push to make whatever I say hurt someone's self esteem(and soul.) I'm never violent, and I don't yell, I bite, and then door slam if someone actually manages to get me to that point. If I'm angry with someone then I get moody, and I go hang out by myself and sulk until I end up more mad at myself than mad at them.


Mostly, I want other people to be happy.
If someone's in a bad mood, it'll definitely affect me to some extent.
edit:
clicked quick reply too soon. I'll add to this post, because I started to go off on a tangent there.



Also, my face is super expressive. When I'm happy, I'm happy. My smile is huge and I can't hide jack shit in terms of how I'm really feeling. My eyes are very expressive and large too, and even if it's something trivial that happens(such as...frustration because I can't find my keys, or someone reacting a little less enthusiastic to food that I made than I hoped) then people tell me the look in my eyes is like someone killed a puppy and started eating it right there.

 

[ceecee]

Fe to me is hyperawareness of other people's moods, reactions, body language and wanting to get validation.

I could not agree with this more but I have a question. Why do you need validation? Because you are so sensitive to it that validation lessens the sensitivity? Because you gotta be right about other's moods, body language, etc? What happens when you are wrong?

 

[Tilt]

I could not agree with this more but I have a question. Why do you need validation? Because you are so sensitive to it that validation lessens the sensitivity? Because you gotta be right about other's moods, body language, etc? What happens when you are wrong?

For me, I like to check in w/ others to see if my inner dialogue and perception are typical and/or accurate... although some may construe it as attention-seeking/insecurity.

I usually have a certain interpretation of a situation but like to see if others come to similar conclusions. If the conclusions seem rather off-base, I will try to seek new/more information to rework the Ni framework and make sense of things.