No heaven above us and no hell below us

[Qlip]

makes me think of this... and then I have to be sad because he's dead



and why does copy-paste convert the all caps to normal font?! how is Death supposed to be adequately Death-y?!?!?

Hah. God bless Terry Pratchett.

 

[miss fortune]

Hah. God bless Terry Pratchett.

sometimes fiction can explain things more adequately than fact

 

[Qlip]

sometimes fiction can explain things more adequately than fact

I have this theory that self-consciousness starts with a lie, or at least something that can never be proven as true, that we deserve to live, even at the expense of others'. Everything is a fairy tale from there on out.

 

[miss fortune]

I have this theory that self-consciousness starts with a lie, or at least something that can never be proven as true, that we deserve to live, even at the expense of others'. Everything is a fairy tale from there on out.

I can see that... I've always wondered why humans see themselves apart from other animals, since that's what we are in the end... animals, with the same urges and needs and drives. Kind of rather What Keeps Mankind Alive in a way I guess

We tell ourselves that we're special and that we live for a higher purpose... that we're destined for great things. The whole story about being The Chosen One that always pops up in movies and such because everyone hopes in the back of their minds that it's them... that circumstances will arise when people finally recognize their unappreciated greatness that they've known was there all along. Tell yourself whatever it takes to make the fact that you work 40 hours or more a week at a job that you doubt really impacts the world in any way more meaningful acceptable... lie to yourself so that you don't realize how pointless the hoops that you jump through to have the things that we are supposed to want are.

 

[Qlip]

I can see that... I've always wondered why humans see themselves apart from other animals, since that's what we are in the end... animals, with the same urges and needs and drives. Kind of rather What Keeps Mankind Alive in a way I guess

We tell ourselves that we're special and that we live for a higher purpose... that we're destined for great things. The whole story about being The Chosen One that always pops up in movies and such because everyone hopes in the back of their minds that it's them... that circumstances will arise when people finally recognize their unappreciated greatness that they've known was there all along. Tell yourself whatever it takes to make the fact that you work 40 hours or more a week at a job that you doubt really impacts the world in any way more meaningful acceptable... lie to yourself so that you don't realize how pointless the hoops that you jump through to have the things that we are supposed to want are.

Lol, that's super depressing. I'm a Ne-dom, so when I say that I think our lives are based on a lie, it's just one view, one that inevitably leads to something that makes me want to draw a bath with a toaster oven. The other side of the coin of the belief that maybe we do have a purpose, our lives have meaning, that we are special animals. And in being special, we also have responsibilities. They both are equally possible. I like the special that point of view better, and I believe it. Although I'm not exactly sure where to go from there.

Even if you take the depressing view, self-consciousness is amazing, it's pretty cool to see stuff and to do stuff and imagine stuff, even if there's nothing else.

 

[miss fortune]

Lol, that's super depressing. I'm a Ne-dom, so when I say that I think our lives are based on a lie, it's just one view, one that inevitably leads to something that makes me want to draw a bath with a toaster oven. The other side of the coin of the belief that maybe we do have a purpose, our lives have meaning, that we are special animals. And in being special, we also have responsibilities. They both are equally possible. I like the special that point of view better, and I believe it. Although I'm not exactly sure where to go from there.

Even if you take the depressing view, self-consciousness is amazing, it's pretty cool to see stuff and to do stuff and imagine stuff, even if there's nothing else.

Even if I'd like to believe the more cheery With Great Powers Come Great Responsibilities view my mind keeps going back to the depressing one

I don't believe that there's a purpose other than that which we make for ourselves... I prefer to go with the idea that I should try to leave the world a bit better for having lived, though I've dug myself pretty far into a hole by this point, so it should take some work Sometimes awareness is a bit of a curse. I always wonder if everyone else thinks the same or if I'm just looking at things a bit too clearly... I genuinely feel like most of the trappings of modern lives are closer to being traps, or perhaps hamster wheels that we can't get off of for fear that we'd lose all that we've worked for so far and that people put way too much importance on things that don't matter at all. I can't understand why I should respect those who have more than me or those who have power over me... I just don't trust wealth and power because, in a way, I just feel like it's a carrot dangled in front of everyone's faces in hopes that we'll do what's wanted and maybe work a few more hours.

Oddly, despite thinking this way, I'm generally in a pretty good mood

I do envy those who do think on the lighter side of things though... it always seems so refreshing

 

[EcK]

We certainly can all be right, when dealing with subjective matters rather than objective matters like mathematics. Looking to religious texts for answers about the physical world makes about as much sense as consulting the poetry of Byron to figure out how to fix your computer. This is always a problem with religious texts. Too many people expect to find literal truth, while what they provide is a metaphorical truth that is much more profound, and multifaceted.

So does Lord of the Rings but we don't pray to Frodo.
It's quite simple: either's it's real or it's not. You don't get to claim that there's a guy at the top of the whole universe breaking the laws of physics at will and judging you etc. (essentially a father figure) and get to turn it into abstract poetry as soon as these unpleasants facts about how the universe actually seems to work conflict with the fairy tale in question.

That's utter intellectual dishonesty to me.
If we were talking poetry, fine. But it's not poetry. It's 'Truth', it's judgement, it's crusades and wars and people brainwashed by the billions. Thanking an Imaginary Foe for relenting in it's apparent blind murderous rage. It's Stockholm syndrome where your kidnapper doesn't even need to exist for its victims to waste their lives away calling out to a void where all echoes are but within ourselves.

How many times did we hear people say things like: my child was born handicaped or my aunt got cancer. To then follow by thanking god for not pushing the knife all the way through, instead of recognizing that it's the effort and dedication of their family, it's the work of doctors and the progress of medecine which spared that life. Thank must be given where it's due. You owe your life to your parents. Not to an imaginary friend. You owe finding a job to your own efforts and skills and a conflagration of events. Not to (...).

Saying all is owed to god, whether real or not, necessarily also means all blame goes to said god. If one believes in an all knowing, omniscient and omnipotent, all forgiving god. Then one must also believe in a cruel, bloody, child murdering, genocidal psychopathic god. It's either that or said god doesn't exist, doesn't care or simply is not the all powerful being it claims to be (so a lying god as well)

 

[Coriolis]

So does Lord of the Rings but we don't pray to Frodo.
It's quite simple: either's it's real or it's not. You don't get to claim that there's a guy at the top of the whole universe breaking the laws of physics at will and judging you etc. (essentially a father figure) and get to turn it into abstract poetry as soon as these unpleasants facts about how the universe actually seems to work conflict with the fairy tale in question.

That's utter intellectual dishonesty to me.
If we were talking poetry, fine. But it's not poetry. It's 'Truth', it's judgement, it's crusades and wars and people brainwashed by the billions. Thanking an Imaginary Foe for relenting in it's apparent blind murderous rage. It's Stockholm syndrome where your kidnapper doesn't even need to exist for its victims to waste their lives away calling out to a void where all echoes are but within ourselves.

How many times did we hear people say things like: my child was born handicaped or my aunt got cancer. To then follow by thanking god for not pushing the knife all the way through, instead of recognizing that it's the effort and dedication of their family, it's the work of doctors and the progress of medecine which spared that life. Thank must be given where it's due. You owe your life to your parents. Not to an imaginary friend. You owe finding a job to your own efforts and skills and a conflagration of events. Not to (...).

Saying all is owed to god, whether real or not, necessarily also means all blame goes to said god. If one believes in an all knowing, omniscient and omnipotent, all forgiving god. Then one must also believe in a cruel, bloody, child murdering, genocidal psychopathic god. It's either that or said god doesn't exist, doesn't care or simply is not the all powerful being it claims to be (so a lying god as well)

You are describing the same simplistic and ultimately materialistic approach to spirituality that I am criticising in the first place. Even many Christians will acknowledge that God works and speaks through people. Why did the surgeon know how to save a life? Why did he/she even become a surgeon? Why do your cousins help your aunt with her illness? How does she keep up her spirits through treatments? At the bottom of many questions like these are human motivations and values, many of which are inspired by their spiritual beliefs and practices.

Yes, I suppose to a degree I am equating Jesus with other literary characters. I often use the example of Santa Claus. Is Santa real? He is based on the historical Saint Nicholas, bishop of Myra, who was well-known for his charity, especially toward young people. Santa as we know him today certainly isn't a living, breathing human being residing at the North Pole with his elven colleagues. He is real as a concept, though, just like Cinderella, Baba Yaga, and many other archetypal characters from human legend. I would include such Biblical characters as Noah and Daniel here as well. The truth of their stories does not depend on historical veracity.

Same with Jesus. He seems to have been a real historical figure, whose actions are recounted in the Bible, with indeterminate accuracy. Since his death, an entire legend has sprung up around him, drawing on the Messianic tradition of the Old Testament, descent to the underworld and resurrection stories prevalent in pre-Christian traditions, and other ideas. Worshipping one of these figures is then tantamount to worshiping, or valuing, what they represent. It is also a way to put a more human face on deity, something that by most definitions so transcends human existence as to be ultimately unfathomable. Religions with diverse pantheons approach this by offering many ready-made "faces" for God.

Saying everything is "owed" to 'God in its most basic form just means that God created everything, and without God, nothing would be.

 

[Mademoiselle]

When you're floating in existence you can't tell directions like below or above, not even measure things.. Unless of course you relate it and compare it to another object.

And logic: what has a start, has an end.
Because things aren't so just because whatever somehow like that ..

With the universe getting fatter.. Oh.. Baby nothing can move alone

Trust me I'm
An
Engineer

 

[Riva]

And logic: what has a start, has an end.

Which means God will also one day die. Meaning he isn't as powerful as people think he is.

 

[Mademoiselle]

Which means God will also one day die. Meaning he isn't as powerful as people think he is.

No, lol, in fact God was never born, was there the while time and will ever be there.

This universe started with one force.
And there's always one force.

Digits are either 0 or 1.
And as long as there's some thing it's one.

Don't you see the signature allover the place?

 

[Lark]

I wonder how many non-believers or atheists there are purely because of a negative relationship or experience of religion.

And also conversely how many believers there are or persons who persist in belief purely because of a negative relationship or experience of atheism.

And finally the extent to which each tendency reinforces one another and misses the point altogether.

 

[Coriolis]

I wonder how many non-believers or atheists there are purely because of a negative relationship or experience of religion.

And also conversely how many believers there are or persons who persist in belief purely because of a negative relationship or experience of atheism.

And finally the extent to which each tendency reinforces one another and misses the point altogether.

I wonder how many believers there are just because of the social and cultural benefits of belonging to an organized religious group, especially one favored by the majority, or the society's elites?

 

[SearchingforPeace]

I wonder how many believers there are just because of the social and cultural benefits of belonging to an organized religious group, especially one favored by the majority, or the society's elites?

I read about a growing movement of atheists and agnostics that have weekly church meetings and sing humanist hymns and humanist sermons, and have all the social functions of churches, just without religion or God. I guess it is a growing movement.....

As to your point, I have met many people who attend a given church because it dominates the neighborhood or for business reasons in areas with one dominant church..... pretty common....

 

[Coriolis]

I read about a growing movement of atheists and agnostics that have weekly church meetings and sing humanist hymns and humanist sermons, and have all the social functions of churches, just without religion or God. I guess it is a growing movement.....

As to your point, I have met many people who attend a given church because it dominates the neighborhood or for business reasons in areas with one dominant church..... pretty common....

I have read about these atheist "churches" as well. I'm not a fan of that format, whether the content is humanist, Christian, or anything else.

I have long thought that about 10% of people will faithfully follow a religion, regardless of what society does, even in the face of persecution (e.g. former USSR). Similarly 10% will eschew all religion, regardless of pressure to participate. The remaining 80% will go with the flow.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I have read about these atheist "churches" as well. I'm not a fan of that format, whether the content is humanist, Christian, or anything else.

I have long thought that about 10% of people will faithfully follow a religion, regardless of what society does, even in the face of persecution (e.g. former USSR). Similarly 10% will eschew all religion, regardless of pressure to participate. The remaining 80% will go with the flow.

You are probably talking about the Sunday Assembly movement (The Sunday Assembly | Live Better, Help Often, Wonder More). This is anecdotal, but I hear that the Sunday Assembly [SA] movement does well in the South (Bible Belt), where atheists and/or Humanists may feel excluded from the general community and welcome the opportunity to gather and socialize among their own. By comparison, the movement apparently doesn't get much attendance in the more liberal North, presumably because atheists and/or Humanists are more accepted in the community and don't need the social support of Sunday Assemblies.

So I gather, from chatting once or twice with SA folk in the south, that that the SA movement isn't necessarily or predominantly a church-y thing; it's more of a social thing. It's mostly about providing an opportunity for atheists/Humanists to get together and socialize with other people like themselves, for those who might want or need a support network.

Also, on an historical note: I think the Sunday Assembly people are filling a slot that used to belong to the Unitarian Universalists. The UUs used to make a big deal about welcoming agnostics and even atheists. But the UUs are in fact a real church, and I don't think the majority of atheists were ever much interested in what the UUs were offering.

 

[Lark]

I wonder how many believers there are just because of the social and cultural benefits of belonging to an organized religious group, especially one favored by the majority, or the society's elites?

I'm sure there's many, if you live in a country without the burgeoning atheism of places such as ROI or UK, I've heard that some religious communities have been pretty good at reformating belief and tradition, I mentioned before the atheists within Jewish communities, like Erich Fromm.

Although if your suggestion is that religion is purely a scam, racket or utilitarian control mechanism then I'd have to dismiss it as infantile and cliche.

 

[ceecee]

So I gather, from chatting once or twice with SA folk in the south, that that the SA movement isn't necessarily or predominantly a church-y thing; it's more of a social thing.

I think all churches are a social thing to varying degrees.

 

[Tennessee Jed]

I think all churches are a social thing to varying degrees.

That's not saying much. Pretty much all human interactions can be considered "social" in one way or another.

Not to belabor the point, but maybe I'm not getting through and I need to spell it out:

A couple earlier posts seemed to be talking about how atheists were creating some kind of mock religious services, perhaps implying that atheists had some kind of innate human need to engage in some kind of "worship" at some kind of "church services." Or something along that line. (Frankly, I don't even know what point those earlier posts were trying to make.)

So just to clarify, I pointed out that the UUs provided a sort of "atheist church" outlet for decades, and to my knowledge the larger atheist community never had any interest. Meantime if SA is currently gaining some traction, I think that's happening more on a regional basis reflecting social isolation of atheists rather than some innate human need to "worship" at an "atheist church."

SA is very clear that there's no religious orientation to anything they do. The first three items of the SA Charter are:

The Sunday Assembly:
1. Is 100% celebration of life. We are born from nothing and go to nothing. Let’s enjoy it together.
2. Has no doctrine. We have no set texts so we can make use of wisdom from all sources.
3. Has no deity. We don’t do supernatural but we also won’t tell you you’re wrong if you do.

So I'm making a distinction. I think the "atheist church" label is a misnomer, and I've never seen where atheists have any kind of innate need for "worship" or "church services." Atheists just want to socialize, like all humans. As I understand it, SA's real function is about socializing.

Now if religious people want to compare *their* church services to SA meetings and say that *their* religious services are really just for socializing and aren't any more spiritual than what the SAs do, then that's fine with me. I don't really care how religious people spin their services. I don't give a shit what happens in religious church services. Religious people can do whatever they like in church. As long as they don't try to impose any deity-oriented beliefs, doctrines, and laws on me.

 

[Lark]

I think all churches are a social thing to varying degrees.

What about religions?