No heaven above us and no hell below us

[Fluffywolf]

Truth (in the general sense) is for each individual to decide by themselves.

The only question one has to ask themselves is do I want to find my own truth or do I want to assimilate myself in the truth of others.

Finding your own truth is a very ego centric way of doing things and whilest I personally am an advocate for finding your own truth, I recognize as part of the truth I found for myself, that this is not for everyone. Assimilating yourself in the truth of others (ie finding a religion), is a very communal way of finding truth, and whilest it does mean you are subject to other people, it does bring inclusion which in turn is not inherently bad. Argueably it is in fact in many cases a good thing. At least for that person in question.

Perhaps instead of asking 'what is your truth' the more interesting question to ask is 'what is your want and what is your need'.

 

[Evee]

How do we know that only man discloses? Perhaps dolphins disclose in their dolphin-click language.

Because only a human being experiences beings as a being (i.e., it is aware of, and interested in, its own Being).

Which is why Heidegger said that "The human being is not the lord of beings, but the shepherd of Being."

A stone is worldless, and animals have access to only a small portion of our world.

We create worlds... through language.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Because only a human being experiences beings as a being (i.e., it is aware of, and interested in, its own Being).

Which is why Heidegger said that "The human being is not the lord of beings, but the shepherd of Being."

A stone is worldless, and animals have access to only a small portion of our world.

We create worlds... through language.

Right, but how do we know animals don't have language?

 

[Coriolis]

Because only a human being experiences beings as a being (i.e., it is aware of, and interested in, its own Being).

How do we know this?

"If a lion could speak, we could not understand him." Wittgenstein (PI, p.223)

But if a monkey could sign, we could understand.

Right, but how do we know animals don't have language?

We don't, and in fact, I thought some of them did. They just aren't like human languages.

 

[Fluffywolf]

Animals have language, although I guess it depends on how you want to define the boundaries of language.

If I wave to you from across the street to get your attention, do you see this is language? If you say something to me and I shake my head, do you take that as a no? If so, then animals have language as well.

If an animal growls at you for getting too close, it speaks to you saying that it is not comfortable with your actions, warning you that you should stop doing what you are doing. We can understand and speak that language and respect their boundaries. Because alternatively if you don't speak that language, you're probably gonna get bitten.

And just like that example, animals have fairly complex languages on their own.

Saying animals don't communicate is silly.

 

[LonestarCowgirl]

everyone has different lives and therefore everyone has a different perspective on things, even within particular belief structures... there is no such thing as a monolithic belief in which everyone thinks in unison

I have my own opinions on things just as you have yours and those beliefs come from innate qualities, life experiences and upbringing and I don't feel that it's my job to judge things that I cannot ever fully understand

also people have things in which they believe... most of the time, whether the person is a follower of a conventional religion or not, that tends to boil down towards treating others well

Amen, amen. God talks about that in the Bible in Romans chapter 14. Accept and love those who are weak in faith (which includes the faithless) without dispute or passing judgment on them.

 

[Evee]

Right, but how do we know animals don't have language?

How do we know this?

Animals don't have recursion, therefore, they don't have grammar, therefore, they don't have language.

It is language which shapes our world, not the other way around. Conceptualizing, and representing (forming) beliefs about the world is only possible through our use of language.

Saying animals don't communicate is silly.

I did not say that animals do not communicate, they clearly do, but language isn't communication, per se.

 

[Coriolis]

Animals don't have recursion, therefore, they don't have grammar, therefore, they don't have language.

And how can we be certain of this?

It is language which shapes our world, not the other way around. Conceptualizing, and representing (forming) beliefs about the world is only possible through our use of language.

I would expect that our world has shaped the evolution of language, just as it has helped to shape many other aspects of human (and other) life.

 

[Evee]

And how can we be certain of this?

Show me an animal that has recursion besides man.

I would expect that our world has shaped the evolution of language.

Backwards.

 

[Evee]

But if a monkey could sign, we could understand.

I know that this discussion is old now but I just found out that apes who have learned sign language have never gotten around to asking us a question using it.

 

[Coriolis]

Backwards.

Hogwash. Otherwise all our words for technology would have existed prior to the invention of that technology. The world around us, as it evolves, influences language. We don't need words for things that do not yet exist, at least in someone's imagination.

 

[prplchknz]

Hogwash. Otherwise all our words for technology would have existed prior to the invention of that technology. The world around us, as it evolves, influences language. We don't need words for things that do not yet exist, at least in someone's imagination.

can you please figure out how to convince the world especially the scientific community to stop verbing people's names for new things?

 

[Coriolis]

can you please figure out how to convince the world especially the scientific community to stop verbing people's names for new things?

What do you mean? Can you give an example?

 

[prplchknz]

What do you mean? Can you give an example?

van der waal's forces

 

[Evee]

Hogwash. Otherwise all our words for technology would have existed prior to the invention of that technology. The world around us, as it evolves, influences language. We don't need words for things that do not yet exist, at least in someone's imagination.

Why do you think children ages 0 - 5 retain virtually no memories? It's because of the acquisition of language.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Why do you think children ages 0 - 5 retain virtually no memories? It's because of the acquisition of language.

I rarely spoke as a young child, but that does not mean I did not observe. Apparently, my parents were concerned because I did not speak exactly "on cue", but it turns out there was no problem with language comprehension. I do believe I have memories from being only a year old, if my mom dated a photograph correctly.

Having a good memory is a blessing and a curse. Very hard thing to deal with, never forgetting a thing.

 

[Evee]

Also why has no ape ever asked a human a question with sign language before? That's pretty meaningful right?

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I rarely spoke as a young child, but that does not mean I did not observe. Apparently, my parents were concerned because I did not speak exactly "on cue", but it turns out there was no problem with language comprehension. I do believe I have memories from being only a year old, if my mom dated a photograph correctly.

Having a good memory is a blessing and a curse. Very hard thing to deal with, never forgetting a thing.

Aspie! (just kidding)

I make that joke because I too didn't speak much until about 3 when I suddenly started speaking in complete sentences. Prior to that people were telling my parents something must be wrong with me.

There was nothing wrong with me; I was silently observing and absorbing information and vocabulary.

- - - Updated - - -

Also why has no ape ever asked a human a question with sign language before? That's a pretty meaningful right?

I thought Koko had asked questions before.

 

[Evee]

I thought Koko had asked questions before.

No animal has ever asked a question before man.

Asking a question says a lot more than answering one.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

No animal has ever asked a question before man.

Asking a question says a lot more than answering one.

Perhaps no one has recognized when a question has been asked.