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Random Star Wars Thoughts

Totenkindly

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Watched e6 over lunch. It was okay. pretty much what is expected to happen has happened.

I don't think it's bad, I just think it's pretty predictable. There's also some moments that just feel more inert than they should be -- I immediately imagined how the lines SHOULD have gone (same outcome) to ratchet more emotion. Maybe it would help if I saw the cartoons with these characters, but I think "inert" describes a lot of this. Like, there's a fight sequence in this episode but I pretty much didn't care; it's just a by-rote Star Wars fight, you pretty much know how it will go and whatever, you know?

I think the most interesting fight was more between Baylan and Ahsoka in e4, I actually felt some tension there -- and RESTRAINED ability. Like, they both were holding back in the early stages, testing each other's resolve and power. The only other approach of interest is just all-out assault -- and that is pretty much the fight at the end of Revenge of the Sith. Obi-Wan and Anakin argue and the tension just ratchets up and up and up until it's clear it's coming to blows, and Obi-Wan says, "I will do as I must," and Anakin says, 'you will TRY..." and then just HURLS himself at Obi-Wan. That opening sequence is one of the craziest Star wars fights I've ever seen, it's just insane in terms of raw aggression.
 

Totenkindly

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Well, this made me mad.


I was made even angrier when I learned that Matthew Vaughn directed those stupid Kingsmen movies. (Don't ask me about those unless you want to get some kind of endless political diatribe from me.)

“‘Star Wars’ is the Skywalker family and that’s where I think they’ve gone wrong. They’ve forgot,” Vaughn said. “They’ve done brilliantly in TV but it needs an epic new film.”

The thing about the "epic new film" is that this isn't what Vaughn wants to give us. You want to give us exactly what they gave us in 2015, only without the audacity the actually come up with new characters. Why on Earth would I watch this? I would not visit theaters for this (unlike for every SW film since 97), and it might be a good long time before I would give it a shot on streaming. I don't really want to watch a shitty version of a movie I like.

Technically, we have better effects these days which could allows filmmakers to do more, which might contribute something, but that only works if the people behind the scenes aren't creatively bankrupt (which might just be an issue if their big idea is to remake Star Wars). We can see this in the sequel trilogy, where they CG in some massive fleets that they could never do for the OT, and then decide that they don't want to actually be bothered showing a battle between them, and instead give us something dumb with horses running around on star destroyers. It's a Catch-22, really. If a filmmaker stood a chance of doing something interesting or novel or worthwhile in a reboot of Star Wars, they probably wouldn't be having the "balls" to come up with the idea of a reboot of Star War in the first place.

For a guy who is talking about rebooting Star Wars, he also spend a lot of time talking about creativity and it's infuriating. This person has zero sense of irony.


“Look, I think for the ‘Star Wars’ universe to expand, it has to expand,” Waititi told Total Film about his yet-to-be-titled movie. “I don’t think that I’m any use in the ‘Star Wars’ universe making a film where everyone’s like, ‘Oh great, well that’s the blueprints to the Millennium Falcon, ah that’s Chewbacca’s grandmother.'”

I forgot Taikia Waiti was making a Star Wars film, and this actually made me very happy and interested in his movie. He gets what's needed in concept, at least. Not like Matthew Vaughn.
 
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The Cat

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Well, this made me mad.


I was made even angrier when I learned that Matthew Vaughn directed those stupid Kingsmen movies. (Don't ask me about those unless you want to get some kind of endless political diatribe from me.)



The thing about the "epic new film" is that this isn't what Vaughn wants to give us. You want to give us exactly what they gave us in 2015, only without the audacity the actually come up with new characters. Why on Earth would I watch this? I would not visit theaters for this (unlike for every SW film since 97), and it might be a good long time before I would give it a shot on streaming. I don't really want to watch a shitty version of a movie I like.

Technically, we have better effects these days which could allows filmmakers to do more, which might contribute something, but that only works if the people behind the scenes aren't creatively bankrupt (which might just be an issue if their big idea is to remake Star Wars). We can see this in the sequel trilogy, where they CG in some massive fleets that they could never do for the OT, and then decide that they don't want to actually be bothered showing a battle between them, and instead give us something dumb with horses running around on star destroyers. It's a Catch-22, really. If a filmmaker stood a chance of doing something interesting or novel or worthwhile in a reboot of Star Wars, they probably wouldn't be having the "balls" to come up with the idea of a reboot of Star War in the first place.

For a guy who is talking about rebooting Star Wars, he also spend a lot of time talking about creativity and it's infuriating. This person has zero sense of irony.




I forgot Taikia Waiti was making a Star Wars film, and this actually made me very happy and interested in his movie. He gets what's needed in concept, at least. Not like Matthew Vaughn.
Matt Vaughn has just about the worst Star Wars take Ive ever seen who hasnt then immediately died by swallowing their own tongue and choking to death on their own stupid. "Better effects" arent nessessary Episode IV, V, & VI proved that. VII, VIII, & IX sort of proved that people are over the god damned space Kardashians.
 

Totenkindly

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Matt Vaughn has just about the worst Star Wars take Ive ever seen who hasnt then immediately died by swallowing their own tongue and choking to death on their own stupid. "Better effects" arent nessessary Episode IV, V, & VI proved that. VII, VIII, & IX sort of proved that people are over the god damned space Kardashians.
I like Matt Vaughn a lot -- but yeah, totally in disagreement with this hot take.

it's a losing battle to redo Star Wars and similar.

Do something new. Make it your own. The world is huge. I'm fucking sick of the Skywalkers and seeing things like Anakin Caitlyn Jenner show up for apologetics in new properties like Ahsoka. Please move on.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I just connected the scene in Rogue One where he shoots the other agent with the scene in the middle of the film where he decided not to shoot Galen Erso. This makes Andor more meaningful. I didn't connect the stuff about how they terminate assets who are no longer useful with the Galen Erso scene until now; I was only thinking of the earlier scene.

Maybe this obvious to everyone else, but somebody pointed me in the direction the other day.
 
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Totenkindly

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I just connected the scene in Rogue One where he shoots the other agent with the scene in the middle of the film where he decided not to shoot Galen Erso. This makes Andor more meaningful. I didn't connect the stuff about how they terminate assets who are no longer useful with the Galen Erso scene until now; I was only thinking of the earlier scene.

Maybe this obvious to everyone else, but somebody pointed me in the direction the other day.
Yeah, we were seeing Cassian in the final parts of his arc, where he cut down the other agent without much hesitation because the guy wasn't able to get away (with his busted arm) -- so I suppose he could pretend he was helping his buddy avoid torture but mainly was ensuring he wouldn't talk and "closing the loop" so to speak. It insinuated Andor had been making similar decisions for quite awhile and had become somewhat calloused to death; the guy had massive PTSD and had sealed himself off from feeling the impact of his decisions. It is shown a lot in "Andor" the series where a person's value was only based on what information they had or their practical value in a situation, and otherwise they were expendable and there was not much sense attaching feelings to people.

So when he gets pretty close to shooting Galen but just can't do it because he actually has sympathy towards Jyn and violating her trust / hurting her like that -- he's realizing that he actually has some of his humanity left. Maybe Jyn was new to the rebellion, but she reminded him of the inherent value of people.

Which leads to that speech at the Rebel base -- "Some of us - well, most of us - we've all done terrible things on behalf of the Rebellion. Spies, saboteurs, assassins. Everything I did, I did for the Rebellion. And every time I walked away from something I wanted to forget, I told myself it was for a cause that I believed in. A cause that was worth it. Without that, we're lost. Everything we've done would have been for nothing. I can't face myself if I gave up now. None of us could."

When they go to Scarif, you really get the idea that he is now feeling the deaths of his friends and companions versus being numb to it -- the whole bit with Kay at the Records room even seems to hit him harder than normal. So when he tells Jyn that her dad would have been really proud of her, on the beach, as they're preparing for the end, it is really heartbreaking but also beautiful.
 

The Cat

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Yeah, we were seeing Cassian in the final parts of his arc, where he cut down the other agent without much hesitation because the guy wasn't able to get away (with his busted arm) -- so I suppose he could pretend he was helping his buddy avoid torture but mainly was ensuring he wouldn't talk and "closing the loop" so to speak. It insinuated Andor had been making similar decisions for quite awhile and had become somewhat calloused to death; the guy had massive PTSD and had sealed himself off from feeling the impact of his decisions. It is shown a lot in "Andor" the series where a person's value was only based on what information they had or their practical value in a situation, and otherwise they were expendable and there was not much sense attaching feelings to people.

So when he gets pretty close to shooting Galen but just can't do it because he actually has sympathy towards Jyn and violating her trust / hurting her like that -- he's realizing that he actually has some of his humanity left. Maybe Jyn was new to the rebellion, but she reminded him of the inherent value of people.

Which leads to that speech at the Rebel base -- "Some of us - well, most of us - we've all done terrible things on behalf of the Rebellion. Spies, saboteurs, assassins. Everything I did, I did for the Rebellion. And every time I walked away from something I wanted to forget, I told myself it was for a cause that I believed in. A cause that was worth it. Without that, we're lost. Everything we've done would have been for nothing. I can't face myself if I gave up now. None of us could."

When they go to Scarif, you really get the idea that he is now feeling the deaths of his friends and companions versus being numb to it -- the whole bit with Kay at the Records room even seems to hit him harder than normal. So when he tells Jyn that her dad would have been really proud of her, on the beach, as they're preparing for the end, it is really heartbreaking but also beautiful.
That is a rough place to live when you're so well trained that you start compartmentalizing everything, including yourself into that space. Too bad Andor didnt get to become a Shepherd and join a ship of thieves. His arc could have come full circle.
Andor dreams of a Better Galaxy. A Galaxy without the Empire...

Characters like Andor and the Rebellion he fights in are welcome additions to the Star Wars Galaxy. The fact that he's not even a distant cousin of a solo or a skywalker is just the sexiest thing they could have done for the characterization.​
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Yeah, we were seeing Cassian in the final parts of his arc, where he cut down the other agent without much hesitation because the guy wasn't able to get away (with his busted arm) -- so I suppose he could pretend he was helping his buddy avoid torture but mainly was ensuring he wouldn't talk and "closing the loop" so to speak. It insinuated Andor had been making similar decisions for quite awhile and had become somewhat calloused to death; the guy had massive PTSD and had sealed himself off from feeling the impact of his decisions. It is shown a lot in "Andor" the series where a person's value was only based on what information they had or their practical value in a situation, and otherwise they were expendable and there was not much sense attaching feelings to people.

So when he gets pretty close to shooting Galen but just can't do it because he actually has sympathy towards Jyn and violating her trust / hurting her like that -- he's realizing that he actually has some of his humanity left. Maybe Jyn was new to the rebellion, but she reminded him of the inherent value of people.

Which leads to that speech at the Rebel base -- "Some of us - well, most of us - we've all done terrible things on behalf of the Rebellion. Spies, saboteurs, assassins. Everything I did, I did for the Rebellion. And every time I walked away from something I wanted to forget, I told myself it was for a cause that I believed in. A cause that was worth it. Without that, we're lost. Everything we've done would have been for nothing. I can't face myself if I gave up now. None of us could."

When they go to Scarif, you really get the idea that he is now feeling the deaths of his friends and companions versus being numb to it -- the whole bit with Kay at the Records room even seems to hit him harder than normal. So when he tells Jyn that her dad would have been really proud of her, on the beach, as they're preparing for the end, it is really heartbreaking but also beautiful.
I always look at the movie from Jyn's POV and never Andor's. So now I really want to rewatch, with that in mind, especially having seen "Andor".

I also want to see those deleted scenes with Jyn. Remember in the trailer they talked about a criminal record? I want to see that version/side of Jyn, out of sheer curiosity.
 

Totenkindly

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I always look at the movie from Jyn's POV and never Andor's. So now I really want to rewatch, with that in mind, especially having seen "Andor".

I also want to see those deleted scenes with Jyn. Remember in the trailer they talked about a criminal record? I want to see that version/side of Jyn, out of sheer curiosity.
I just rewatched it this morning. I have to say I love this film the more time I see it (which is semi-rare for me, usually I get too familiar with a film and it doesn't necessarily keep expanding my feelings about it).

This will probably start an argument, but while all the Star Wars universe films feel like "Star Wars" films, in general Rogue One and The Force Awakens are the only two of them that are paced and developed in such a way that I feel they also pass as regular drama films aside from the scifi-fantasy elements. [I think a lot of the thanks for that goes to Tony Gilroy and then Michael Arndt, who have done a lot of non-scifi films. I feel like Rian Johnson changed his style when doing The Last Jedi, so the pacing and cutting felt weird to me.] Rogue One even generally eschews the pattern of blaring the Star Wars theme right after the opening scrawl (it introduces the Rogue One theme after the long open, and it's a very truncated version) -- I kind of wish it had done this at the end as well and not just leapt blaring into the typical end credits music right way, because it broke the emotion of the scene preceding it and didn't really fit the tone of this particular film.

Anyway, things I noticed this time:
  • Cassian has this look on his face after he shoots his friend in the back on the trading ring planet and climbs out of there -- it last a few seconds, and you can really see him looking like "Who have I become? I don't know who I am anymore and I don't like myself."
  • There's a comparison/contrast between Saw Gerrera and Cassian Andor I never noticed. Saw is like a future version of Cassian, what happens when you are a rebel relying on any means necessary to accomplish your goals. When Jyn finds him, Gerrera says, "There's very little of me left," and he doesn't just really mean his body, although he needs a lot of implants to and apparatus to function now. His mind has plunged into paranoia, he no longer recognizes who his friends are, he feels lost and isolated and alone in the world, and his culpability has seemed to drive him off the deep end mentally. Despite Bodhi Rook seeming to be on the level, he subjects him to telepathic torture anyway. He has become barely human, an old man filled with regret. When he watches Jyn view the hologram from Galen, it seems to touch him and with the destruction of Jedha he decides he is weary of it all and is done running. This is the one moment where Gerrera and Andor meet -- Andor runs in to get Jyn, Garrera almost shoots him and vice versa, but then both lower their weapons. It's like they almost recognize themselves in each other.
  • After Gerrera's death and finding out also that Galen might have remained loyal to the Rebels all these years, Cassian struggles over the thought of assassinating Galen Erso. Chirrut warns everyone that Cassian is planning to murder someone after Andor leaves the ship, but in the end Cassian even with a clear shot can no longer bring himself to coldly execute Erso regardless of his orders.


I would say too this is why you cast decent actors in genre films. Felicity Jones just owns this role. WHen you first see her in the cell and then the transport, covered in grime, this really large male prisoner eyes her up and seems of the opinion that she is a badass and doesn't really even want to engage her -- he's like 2-3x her size but he really looks less intimidating and hardened than her. ANd then she proves it by taking out the rebels troops that enter the transports before Kay stops her.

But she's also capable of inspirational messaging (her speeches are great), and then her total vulnerability in the scenes with Galen's hologram and briefly with Galen himself. She has such range as an actress.

Heck, Mikkelsen's hologram message is devastating to watch. In the hands of a lesser actor, it would come off as too much and melodramatic, but with his delivery I bought every word of it.

PLus the film is shot so well, it's gorgeous and framed beautifully. Just the balance of the frames, you can tell they thought through their shots despite all the green screen stuff. there are so many to consider:

  • Jyn wakes up in her cell and there's a quick shot of the grate of her cell door, with everything on either side in shadow (herself on one side, another cellmate on the other I think), it's so simple and beautiful.
  • The bit with their ship escaping Jadha underneath the cloud of the debris starting to rain down on them, almost engulfing them. It's really "grip the armrests" harrowing.
  • The shot of them escaping, pulling back to show the explosion on the planet and then slowly panning up to reveal the Death Star floating above it. Like, what a beautiful shot.
  • There's enough dumb little moments -- like after Cassian shoots Krennic, and Jyn runs to the left to start the upload, her body and then her head is perfectly framed in the small opening of blue sky not blocked by all the machinery. Like wtf. There's a LOT of this kind of thing where everything is perfectly shot to maximize the visuals. They took so much care.
And it has one of the best trailers I've seen for any film: the editing, music, and visuals for Trailer #2 is absolutely stellar -- and it even accurately describes the film, it makes Jyn's relationship with her father central to the trailer as it is in the actual film. About the only fault one could have in it is that I don't think Saw's lines about "Save the rebellion, save the dream," appear in the film, they must have been cut.

 
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Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I just rewatched it this morning. I have to say I love this film the more time I see it (hich is semi-rare for me, usually I get too familiar with a film and it doesn't necessarily keep expanding my feelings about it).

This will probably start an argument, but while all the Star Wars universe films feel like "Star Wars" films, in general Rogue One and The Force Awakens are the only two of them that are paced and developed in such a way that I feel they also pass as regular drama films aside from the scifi-fantasy elements. [I think a lot of the thanks for that goes to Tony Gilroy and then Michael Arndt, who have done a lot of non-scifi films. I feel like Rian Johnson changed his style when doing The Last Jedi, so the pacing and cutting felt weird to me.] Rogue One even generally eschews the pattern of blaring the Star Wars theme right after the opening scrawl (it introduces the Rogue One theme after the long open, and it's a very truncated version) -- I kind of wish it had done this at the end as well and not just leapt blaring into the typical end credits music right way, because it broke the emotion of the scene preceding it and didn't really fit the tone of this particular film.
Rather than getting in a discussion about which one of the ST films was actually good, I'd much rather address the astonishing fact that everyone seems to like this movie. I have yet to hear someone say a negative word about Rogue One. During the pandemic, I went on a Zoom date once with a woman who was very into Star Wars, but didn't like most of the new stuff. She was irritated by the fact that they'd tossed out the EU, a position I'm more on board with now that I know they had no compunctions about ripping off the worst parts of it. Guess what the one new movie she said she liked was?

It is extremely difficult to get Star Wars fans to agree on anything, and yet with Rogue One, they did it. It was rather an unconventional idea to do this kind of side story, and yet the thing was allowed to work (or probably more accurately pushed along to work. A positive case of studio interference, perhaps.), I spoke with someone in graduate school (this was a different woman into Star Wars), and she expressed disbelief that the movie would be any good because of the reshoots. Yet, everyone, I think, ended up liking it. If Lucasfilm was smart, they would be studying whatever happened here, and incorporating lessons from that into what they do going forward.

Oh, and I'll also state that I remember when this project was first announced in 2014 or 2015, I sort of rolled my eyes and thought to myself, "Oh, a story about how they steal the Death Star plans, hasn't that be done before?" (It had actually been done several times. There were several video games, a trilogy about Han Solo before ANH) But, the trailers grabbed my interest and got me excited, and of course I loved the movie.
 
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The Cat

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Rather than getting in a discussion about which one of the ST films was actually good, I'd much rather address the astonishing fact that everyone seems to like this movie. I have yet to hear someone say a negative word about Rogue One. During the pandemic, I went on a Zoom date once with a woman who was very into Star Wars, but didn't like most of the new stuff. She was irritated by the fact that they'd tossed out the EU, a position I'm more on board with now that I know they had no compunctions about ripping off the worst parts of it. Guess what the one new movie she said she liked was?

It is extremely difficult to get Star Wars fans to agree on anything, and yet with Rogue One, they did it. It was rather an unconventional idea to do this kind of side story, and yet the thing was allowed to work (or probably more accurately pushed along to work. A positive case of studio interference, perhaps.), I spoke with someone in graduate school (this was a different woman into Star Wars), and she expressed disbelief that the movie would be any good because of the reshoots. Yet, everyone, I think, ended up liking it. If Lucasfilm was smart, they would be studying whatever happened here, and incorporating lessons from that into what they do going forward.

Oh, and I'll also state that I remember when this project was first announced in 2014 or 2015, I sort of rolled my eyes and thought to myself, "Oh, a story about how they steal the Death Star plans, hasn't that be done before?" (It had actually been done several times. There were several video games, a trilogy about Han Solo before ANH) But, the trailers grabbed my interest and got me excited, and of course I loved the movie.
The only complaints I have about Rogue One, is it could have just as easily been Dark Forces. And The most interesting characters in the entire franchise since the original and they get wiped in one movie because theyre not Space Kardashians...
 

The Cat

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Han Solo also got two trilogies preceeding ANH
 

Totenkindly

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The only complaints I have about Rogue One, is it could have just as easily been Dark Forces. And The most interesting characters in the entire franchise since the original and they get wiped in one movie because theyre not Space Kardashians...
Well, I think it's because you can't save any of them without wussing out -- the story was a noble tragedy up front.

They tried to write other endings but Gilroy basically made them bite the bullet because they felt weak.
 

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Han Solo also got two trilogies preceeding ANH
Yeah, that's true. I've actually only read the first one because those were what my school library had. They were unusual because the Empire only got a shout out and it took part in regions of space not under Imperial control. I remember liking them, though, although I think the first one was the best. It's also amusing that the cover said "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" even though he doesn't appear in the book.

The other book that wasn't a novelization that the library had was the even more unusual Splinter of the Mind's, which I think was the first EU novel. Maybe I should give Wookiepedia a peek to see what kinds of retcons they made to make that work.

But it's my understanding that the second trilogy includes a Qi'ra type character (in the sense of the role she plays in his character arc) who is a rebel agent and has something to do with stealing the Death Star plans.
 
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The Cat

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Yeah, that's true. I've actually only read the first one because those were what my school library had. They were unusual because the Empire only got a shout out and it took part in regions of space not under Imperial control. I remember liking them, though, although I think the first one was the best. It's also amusing that the cover said "From the Adventures of Luke Skywalker" even though he doesn't appear in the book.

The other book that wasn't a novelization that the library had was the even more unusual Splinter of the Mind's, which I think was the first EU novel. Maybe I should give Wookiepedia a peek to see what kinds of retcons they made to make that work.

But it's my understanding that the second trilogy includes a Qi'ra type character (in the sense of the role she plays in his character arc) who is a rebel agent and has something to do with stealing the Death Star plans.
The young Han Solo Trilogy by AC Crispen. You get how he got his start and met a girl named Bria Tharen who was in a cult run by these rhino like cousins of the hutts, who have a bilogical ability to make humanoid have like full body orgasms on steroids for like ten minutes a day and its so addicting that all these people volenteer to be slaves in spice minds just to experience "The Exultation." Han Solo falls in love with the girl and makes enough friends that he's able to save the girl and wreck the cult. She leaves him right after they sleep together and it breaks his heart. He joins the Empire.

Which didnt last, dispite being an ace tie fighter pilot and making rank and earning the blood stripe. He saves chewbacca and gets dishonerably discharged from the empire. Starts working for Jabba who takes such a shine to him, he treats him like almost an equal. Han meets Lando and for a while its all good Han and the smugglers practically run Nar Shadaa. Jabba loves solo so much that he protects him from his cousin. You learn Hutts change genders and reproduce asexually and Jabba has straight up eaten a baby hutt that his Aunt/Uncle Jilac intended to pass his empire onto and Solo helps him become the most powerful crimelord in the galaxy outside of the black sun.

Then the girl who left him, had joined the rebels, and comes back and seduces han into helping her pull a big job and she'll sun away with him like she promised all those years ago; and Han recruits the other smugglers to pull it off which they do. She and the rebels then rob all the smugglers, and then she refuses to leave with him, breaking his heart again. She was killed on her next mission which Han warned her would happen. She died thinking of him, and he got news of her death in the Mos Eisley Cantina after Jabba game him one more change to pay him back. So Han Solo is drinking when some old man and a farm boy come in with two droids, and thats where the trilogy ends.
 

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Well, I think it's because you can't save any of them without wussing out -- the story was a noble tragedy up front.

They tried to write other endings but Gilroy basically made them bite the bullet because they felt weak.
You can. It just requires you to not be retelling the seven Samurai. Which once you strip away the rediculous Star Wars names and the space junk aesthetics its a star wars bootleg of Samurai 7. I dont mind the concept of noble tragedies, but I find Hollywood's obsession with pumping audiences up with how noble and wonderful it is to die for a cause to gain a hero status posthumously, kinda sus. I miss the days when the world is calm enough for us to just be able to enjoy a movie about a band of quasi secretly noble scumbags who spend at least 90 minutes space D&D where they steal the thing and they make it to steal another day.

I guess I'll just have to wait for Guy Ritchie or James Gunn to a Star Wars Tales Project.

Killing the entire cast is in my opinion is a heavy handed attempt to force a reaction and exploit the human condition for more accolades than you think your space sword adjacent story line. It worked, so I mean, I can just go get fucked if I don't like it, but what can I say. I like the Seven Samurai whenever I see it, I just, I want more than just that in my space Wuxia.
 
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