What do other types do better than the ENTJ

[Lib]

This discussion leaves room for too much in the way of misunderstanding.

Here, have an example of what I mean, say your small child doesn't like any vegetables. So you take them and put them in things they do like so they are still getting enough of the vegetables, perhaps without explicitly knowing. Is that lying? Is it manipulating? Would you try to sit your toddler down and explain the nutritional benefits of getting enough vegetables?

I won't give to a child food that it doesn't want to eat. Kids have a natural taste for the right food, unless one spoils it with garbage foods. I generally apply such philosophy to everything. Freedom of choice teaches a sense of responsibility.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

I hear what you are saying. EJs actually get their worth from their ability to be useful to others, so there is an inherent fragility around the sense of personal identity and worth. ETJs are not terribly likely to openly discuss these struggles and feelings, or even know how to process them healthily.

Most people forget that strength is only one-half of a two-sided coin, and on the other side is a weakness only rarely seen and even more rarely understood by others.

 

[Jaguar]

EJs actually get their worth from their ability to be useful to others

Far from it.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Far from it.

No, you just fail to see the nuance.

 

[Jaguar]

No, you just fail to see the nuance.

A: Women are stupid bitches.
B: Far from it.
A: No, you just fail to see the nuance.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

A: Women are stupid bitches.
B: Far from it.
A: No, you just fail to see the nuance.

You are TypoC's peach.

 

[Jaguar]

You are TypoC's peach.

If some of you F types can ever refer to the actual post content rather than attacking the person who posted the content, let me know.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

If some of you F types can ever refer to the actual post content rather than attacking the person who posted the content, let me know.

I cannot succinctly explain to you several months worth of in-depth research using purely objective resources and strategies. You'll have to do that on your own because my interest in educating others has largely evaporated.

Also, I don't care if you disagree.

 

[Jaguar]

I cannot succinctly explain to you several months worth of in-depth research using purely objective resources and strategies. You'll have to do that on your own because my interest in educating others has largely evaporated.

Also, I don't care if you disagree.

It takes but one instance to disprove a claim. I'm the one instance. Rather than change your claim, you are still carrying on. Worse still, you are making this about you, rather than focusing on the claim about EJs. If you actually gave a shit about the veracity of said claim, this trolly nonsense wouldn't be going on.

 

[Coriolis]

Being an ENTJ isn't a winning experience. So, the other types surely beat the ENTJ in many games and goals. So, what do you know of it specifically?

How does your type or a type you know of beat the ENTJ?

If you don't think of any activities in terms of winners and losers, just tell us what the other type is good at and how it compares to the poor ENTJ.

One of my best friends is ENTJ. We have the most interesting, stimulating, and far-ranging discussions that I suppose border on debates, in that we don't always agree and have no problem advocating for our own point of view. When we get into these discussions, I find I have usually thought things through on a deeper level than she has, sometimes involving having more raw knowledge on the subject, but usually more of a sense that I have just followed the whole train of thought further, and am already aware of its shortcomings, possible alternative interpretations, etc. I suspect that is just I vs E difference.

For her part, she is much more comfortable working with people, as in networking, making connections, working those connections to get things done, etc.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

It takes but one instance to disprove a claim. I'm the one instance. Rather than change your claim, you are still carrying on. Worse still, you are making this about you, rather than focusing on the claim about EJs. If you actually gave a shit about the veracity of said claim, this trolly nonsense wouldn't be going on.

Perceiving functions (N, S) are about the accumulation/organization of information, be it concrete (S) or abstract (N).
Judging functions (T, F) are about decision making, whether it be based on reasons (T) or preferences (F). (logic vs feelings doesn't really work well at the end of the day because it's too broad and weirdly restricts people's abilities inaccurately based on functions)

Our functions are listed from dominant to inferior (I am not entertaining the possibility of shadow functions for the purposes of this discussion) based on our natural inherent ability to use them (not necessarily synonymous with strengths). So, an N dom has the inherent ability to abstractly interpret everything they experience, and an F dom has the inherent ability to assess everything they experience based on their preferences.

More in-depth:
Functions oriented extrovertedly are about either gathering info from the outside world in a manner which supports variety (Ne, Se), or about making decisions based on what works in the real world externally to them in a manner which supports cohesiveness (Te, Fe).
Functions oriented introvertedly are about either organizing info from the outside world in a manner which supports certainty (Ni, Si), or about making decisions based on what works for them internally in a manner which supports personal significance (Ti, Fi).

Dominant function imbalances:

Those with dominant perceiving functions have an imbalance involving information.
- The Ni dominant is great at organizing abstract information internally, but isn't so great at gathering new concrete information from the external world without interpreting it abstractly.
- The Si dominant is great at organizing concrete information internally, but isn't so great at gathering new abstract information representative of abstract emerging patterns.
- The Ne dominant is great at gathering abstract emerging patterns, but isn't so great at organizing concrete information internally without interpreting in abstractly.
- The Se dominant is great at gathering concrete information, but isn't so great at internally organizing abstract patterns.

Those with dominant judging functions have an imbalance involving decision making.
- The Fi dominant is good at making decisions based on their own preferences, but isn't so great at making decisions which are in line with the prevailing perspective of the world around them based on reasoning.
- The Ti dominant is good at making decisions based on their own reasons, but isn't so great at making decisions which are in line with the prevailing perspective of the world around them based on preferences.
- The Fe dominant is good at making decisions based on what benefits the preferences of the world around them, but isn't so great at making decisions based on their own reasoning.
- The Te dominant is good at making decisions based on what benefits the reasoning of the world around them, but isn't so great at making decisions based on their own preferences.

Therefore, the Fi dominant will repeatedly struggle significantly with "Why do you expect me to do that?" and will in their worst times respond with "Fuck your reasons!"
The Ne dominant will repeatedly struggle significantly with "Why are you trying to organize (restrict) me?" and will in their worst times respond with "Fuck your rules!"
Similarly, the Te dominant will repeatedly struggle significantly with "Why are you expecting me to cater to your preferences?" and will in their worst times respond with "Fuck your feelings!"

Translation: The Te dominant is mostly concerned with things functioning in a way which benefits peak performance of the real world, which whether you care to admit to or not is synonymous with the Fe dominant being mostly concerned with things functioning in a way which benefits the preferences of the real world. Both of you want what works best the most times, which is beneficial to the external world and measured as such. If you failed to be efficient and beneficial to the organization of the world around you, it would likely cause a bit of an identity crisis, just like but converse to an INFP who has an identity crisis when they cannot live a life in line with their own personal preferences.

 

[Sacrophagus]

EJs actually get their worth from their ability to be useful to others, so there is an inherent fragility around the sense of personal identity and worth. ETJs are not terribly likely to openly discuss these struggles and feelings, or even know how to process them healthily.

At least, ask them for some money for spilling our secrets goddamn.


To answer that, in my introspective pursuit of understanding anchors of confidence, I noticed how my ESTJ friend fell into dooming melancholy after he got fired from his job a long time ago. He said that he felt emasculated, not being the bread-winner. He also has a set of mindsets supporting that the man should always earn more than the woman, which is consistent with his other thoughts and behaviors.

My ESFJ sister loves being assigned supervising responsibilites. When she was not a cunt, she loved ordering around maids, taking care of the cooking, the guests...etc. Sometimes I used to take her out of that role for being too domineering with others, and she would feel worthless.

It made me think about those who extract their self-worth from the things they do, and many of the things we do are acts of services to society in one way or another. The difference is why we do them.

The EJ who tries to preserve his place in the community, trying too hard to prove that he still "can do it", easily falling to the taunts of others, doing things they don't like for the sake of shutting down others,...etc, I have met many.

It feels freeing for me, that I give no fucks about external anchors, and that when I do something for others, I do it unconditionally, within a realm of rules dictated by my self that go with a code of virtue, especially when one is close, their honor is my honor. Even so, I feel detached from such things. Today is the end of the world? Yeay. Big deal. When I lost everything, I wasn't even mad nor panicked. I knew that I am the man I am with or without, and I just started everything from scratch, according to my terms.

 

[Jaguar]

Translation: The Te dominant is mostly concerned with things functioning in a way which benefits peak performance of the real world

Stop conflating ENTJs and ESTJs since it involves ignoring the stark differences between SJs and NTs. I am concerned with very little an ESTJ is concerned with which is why I find it unproductive to work with so many of them in business unless it's in and out rather than anything long term. To wit:

People of the Theoristâ„¢ Temperament NT


(Strategic Skill Set)

Want knowledge and to be competent, to achieve mastery. Seek expertise to understand how the world and things in it work. Are theory oriented. See everything as conditional and relative. Are oriented to the infinite. Trust logic and reason. Want to have a rationale for everything. Are skeptical. Think in terms of differences, delineating categories, definitions, structures, and functions. Hunger for precision, especially in thought and language. Usually are skilled at long-range planning, inventing, designing, and defining. Generally are calm. Foster individualism. Frequently gravitate toward technology and the sciences. Tend to be well suited for engineering and devising strategy, whether in the social sciences or physical sciences.



People of the Stabilizerâ„¢ Temperament SJ



(Logistical Skill Set)

Want to fit in, to have membership. Hunger for responsibility, accountability, and predictability. Tend to be generous, to serve, and to do their duty. Establish and maintain institutions and standard operating procedures. Tend to protect and preserve, to stand guard and warn. Look to the past and tradition. Foster enculturation with ceremonies and rules. Trust contracts and authority. Want security and stability. Think in terms of what is conventional, comparisons, associations, and discrete elements. Generally are serious, concerned, and fatalistic. Usually are skilled at ensuring that things, information, and people are in the right place, in the right amounts, in the right quality, at the right time. Frequently gravitate toward business and commerce.

Here's someone who clearly gets the difference between an ENTJ like myself and their ESTJ father:

Interesting, my Dad is an "estj," and he is very generous, dutiful, and abiding of conventional standards/routines. He is logical, yet won't go too deep into the abstract, and has to extrovert his thinking process for clarity. One of my good friends is an ENTJ, and the distinction is quite prominent. He is very decisive and driven toward a future goal. His thoughts coalesce like a game of chess....he can predict multiple paths that will potentiate his success, but narrows it down effectively to the "best case" scenario.

In business, ENTJs and ESTJs can easily be like oil and water especially since I am about creating change, and frequently the ESTJ is hell-bent on trying to sustain the established way of doing things in their so-called community. The most obvious environment this can be seen is the medical community which is so mired in its own outdated, routine slop that when someone like me comes along to propose change, it's like a nuclear bomb going off. No, the ESTJs I deal with are not trying to make anything better, or create "peak performance." Quite the opposite.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Stop conflating ENTJs and ESTJs since it involves ignoring the stark differences between SJs and NTs. I am concerned with very little an ESTJ is concerned with which is why I find it unproductive to work with so many of them in business unless it's in and out rather than anything long term. To wit:




Here's someone who clearly gets the difference between an ENTJ like myself and their ESTJ father:






In business, ENTJs and ESTJs can easily be like oil and water especially since I am about creating change, and frequently the ESTJ is hell-bent on trying to sustain the established way of doing things in their so-called community. The most obvious environment this can be seen is the medical community which is so mired in its own outdated, routine slop that when someone like me comes along to propose change, it's like a nuclear bomb going off. No, the ESTJs I deal with are not trying to make anything better, or create "peak performance." Quite the opposite.

That's all beside the point.

 

[Jaguar]

That's all beside the point.

Not in a typology forum.

 

[Peter Deadpan]

Not in a type forum.

"Okay" Jag.

 

[Jaguar]

"Okay" Jag.

Not interested in getting you to agree. It's never the goal when I post.

 

[Luminous]

If some of you F types can ever refer to the actual post content rather than attacking the person who posted the content, let me know.

Ya know... pot... kettle...

Damnit, [MENTION=31348]Peter Deadpan[/MENTION], then you went and explained it all logically. You're making us F types look too intelligent! They're not supposed to know how smart we can be!

 

[Jaguar]

Ya know... pot... kettle...

You just illustrated my point. Thanks. Do you have anything to post about type or did you just come in to behave like a troll?

 

[rav3n]

I can factually state that being in service or needed, isn't my natural state of happiness. If anything, being unnecessary, independent and free from feeling responsibility towards others, is the secret to my happiness. That's why my husband and I mesh so well. We're individuals who want to be together, rather than in a marriage where we need each other.

That said, if you embrace RHETI and its lines of integration and disintegration, E8s are supposed to integrate with two, hence want to be useful to others. Fuck that noise, lol.