Toxic Feminism

[Redbone]

So what makes some people argue against feminism (or other -isms)?

Does it just bug people? Does it feel like it's unfair backlash? Don't like being tossed in a group or labled an oppressor? Think "this is bullshit and somebody's got to set this straight!"? Irked by hypocrisy? Hate generalizations (or love them)?

What is it?

 

[Forever_Jung]

I I like feminism. And I certainly want equality between the sexes. And I think in terms of the external world, women are at a disadvantage to men. But...

I think what a lot of women don't understand is, because they take their inner life for granted, when men are stripped of their identity of worldly power/accomplishment, they have nothing else. They live in an external, soulless world of objects (or believe they do, anyway). And they have been conditioned to think that their purpose is to acquire/control these objects. Because men are raised to believe that they do not have inherent worth or value beyond what they do, they are human doings not beings. We are disposable instruments, human shields to the vulnerable. So I think naturally, a lot of dudes freak out when women challenge their dominance in these spheres, and want to halt this progress. We don't birth children, and we don't get to own the big hunter/provider/warrior role anymore, do we even matter? Men are in a very brittle and insecure state these days. That's probably why in this thread disco is so insistently harping on male physical dominance in fighting.

Men are supposedly on top of the world, and yet we kill ourselves 3X more than our female counterparts. We make up over 90% of the world's prison population (when we dominate Silicon valley it's an outrage, when we dominate prisons it's just the natural order of things). We often struggle to create and maintain basic human connections. We may make 30 cents more on the dollar (or whatever the figure is), but that doesn't mean we are doing well or truly succeeding in life. Human fulfillment extends beyond material prosperity. We are very vulnerable, but we are (A.) afraid to show it, (B.) seldom aware enough to show it even if we wanted to, and (C.) unequipped to deal with it, even if A and B were present.

I think if we focused on developing emotional well being in men, a lot of the shit feminists are concerned about would be fixed. And a lot fewer (straight) men would treat their partners like an erotic mother figure, because they would be equals emotionally. I'm not talking about wussifying/infantilizing men, because there is nothing infantile about an emotionally mature man. I'm talking about creating psychologically hardy and empathetic men, the kind of dudes who don't abuse/intimidate women just to feel big, the kind that are fucking rad dads and husbands. Also, the kind of dudes who wouldn't spend all day whining on MRA message boards about feminazis lol

I think it's great that women are finding their confidence and asserting themselves in the outside world. But men have a trickier, more abstract journey to make within themselves. Men need a movement, maybe more of a spiritual movement (and I mean that in the loosest sense of the term) But how do you form a movement around developing empathy, vulnerability and self-care in a group of people who are emotionally stunted and have been taught to fear such inner, abstract work?

Hopefully we can all work together. Because just as feminist need help from men who occupy traditional roles of worldly power, men need female allies who traditionally are the gatekeepers of empathy/vulnerability.

 

[ceecee]

I think if we focused on developing emotional well being in men, a lot of the shit feminists are concerned about would be fixed. And a lot fewer (straight) men would treat their partners like an erotic mother figure, because they would be equals emotionally. I'm not talking about wussifying/infantilizing men, because there is nothing infantile about an emotionally mature man. I'm talking about creating psychologically hardy and empathetic men, the kind of dudes who don't abuse/intimidate women just to feel big, the kind that are fucking rad dads and husbands. Also, the kind of dudes who wouldn't spend all day whining on MRA message boards about feminazis lol

There's nothing you wrote that I can disagree with. But then you have this kind of fuckery.

Feminism has that covered. Presenting Men 2.0:

Or men that post pics and videos of themselves everywhere possible. Not to prove a point but to illustrate their level of narcissism. In their world there are two kinds of men. Them and the ones feminism created. And you can't tell them otherwise because their off the charts anger at the state of their own lives makes people write them off entirely. They don't want to be psychologically hardy and empathetic men, they don't want to improve or evolve. They want to be completely accepted, respected and treated like real men. Not called out as the raging dickheads they actually are.

 

[Amargith]

[MENTION=7040]Forever_Jung[/MENTION] i think it starts with breaking down the taboo around being vulnerable. It is so oftenco sidered a weakness ( when it canbe a source of great strength) that it effectively isolates people from each other. The amou t of men who told me things they never would tell even their best mate coz 'men dont do that shit', when i was someone they only just met, are more than i can count. And the relief in their voice to finally get this shit out combined with the look of shame and fear of rejection was hardbreaking to watch.

No man is an island should become a mantra in society imho, in order to break down those stupid walls.

And with that, a skillset of being ok with being uncomfortable with vulnerability should be built up as too many people, often women included, but especially men, are fully unaware that they lash out unjustly when confronted with the vulnerability in another person, especially in another man. Its like they see their own insecurities in a big mirror and cannot help bu try to destroy it, causing more shame, pain and isolation. Most even consider it an emotional manipulation as no sane person would divulge such weakness wothout an agenda or angle.

And so the walls get reinforced, and everyone is banished to their own private emotional hell on their little island.
It's insane, especially considering intimate connection with others is vital to our overal wellbeing and happiness.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Or men that post pics and videos of themselves everywhere possible. Not to prove a point but to illustrate their level of narcissism. In their world there are two kinds of men. Them and the ones feminism created. And you can't tell them otherwise because their off the charts anger at the state of their own lives makes people write them off entirely. They don't want to be psychologically hardy and empathetic men, they don't want to improve or evolve. They want to be completely accepted, respected and treated like real men. Not called out as the raging dickheads they actually are.

The whole "I need feminism because" trend with dudes holding up signs seems to smack of virtue signaling or just trying too hard. "Look at me ladies, look how evolved a male I am (please date me!!!)"

Just be a decent man and treat everyone with respect, no need to tell everyone how awesome and woke you are, this reminds me of people who tell everyone how much they pray and how they're living the values of Christ. Don't talk about it, just do it. Go give your extra money to some homeless or buy them a meal if you really want to be Christlike.

Be the good you want to see in the world, don't talk about it.

 

[anticlimatic]

you can't tell them otherwise because their off the charts anger

They don't want to be psychologically hardy and empathetic [X], they don't want to improve or evolve.

They want to be completely accepted, respected and treated like [X].
Not called out as the raging dickheads they actually are.

I see you're doing that whole 'understanding others by understanding myself' Fi projection thing. Good effort, but if your previous track record is any indication you're probably wrong. But maybe not? I'll say this though, which is about the extent of my knowledge regarding others: people only hear what they want to hear, when they want to hear it.

 

[ceecee]

The whole "I need feminism because" trend with dudes holding up signs seems to smack of virtue signaling or just trying too hard. "Look at me ladies, look how evolved a male I am (please date me!!!)"

I don't think men need to proclaim their support of feminism like that or really at all. But that pic wasn't posted by a feminist or even a female. It was posted by a male who has a problem with men like the guy in the pic. Everyone knows there are men who are threatened that this kind of man even exists in the world, as irrational as that may be.

Just be a decent man and treat everyone with respect, no need to tell everyone how awesome and woke you are, this reminds me of people who tell everyone how much they pray and how they're living the values of Christ. Don't talk about it, just do it. Go give your extra money to some homeless or buy them a meal if you really want to be Christlike.

Be the good you want to see in the world, don't talk about it.

Yes. But that's a bridge too far for many. Let me rephrase. It's doable, as long as they're able to insult someone they're afraid of as they're walking out the door to assist a homeless person. Unless the homeless person mentions they support feminism. Then all bets are off.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

I don't think men need to proclaim their support of feminism like that or really at all. But that pic wasn't posted by a feminist or even a female. It was posted by a male who has a problem with men like the guy in the pic. Everyone knows there are men who are threatened that this kind of man even exists in the world, as irrational as that may be.

.

that dude doesn't scare me, though he would likely annoy me if I met him. The type of dude who lectures other dudes about "waking up" and tells them to "educate yourself." the type of person who assumes and presumes to know more or be more enlightened than others, and makes a point of telling others how enlightened and woke they are. That dude annoys me almost as much as neo-Nazis. Why do I presume to know or guess this dude is a certain type of person? If he feels a need to have a picture taken of him signaling how enlightened and woke he is to advertise that wokeness to the world, I can take a good guess he might be a sanctimonious twatchoad who lectures and chastises other guys in an effort to big himself up in front of women in his gender studies lecture courses. Go live your values and principles, don't talk about it in some attempt to make other people feel lesser or shamed. Some Feminist men like that engage in their own form of male-on-male competition for the attention and respect of women, I've seen it enough in my own experience and they're wolves in sheeps' clothing. Smart feminist women will usually sniff them out right away and avoid them. Really clever men of this sort can go a lot further before being found out. Ghomeshi is a good example.

There's a Taoist saying attributed to Lao Tzu (paraphrasing): "He who knows does not speak and he who speaks does not know."

For the most part, I don't mind feminist women. They often have valid reasons for embracing the ideology. Some make for fun discussion/debate partners or just friends.

You, [MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION], [MENTION=5223]MDP2525[/MENTION], for instance--you're all people I respect, and enjoy talking to or debating, even if it can get contentious or heated at times. I'd have a drink with [MENTION=7254]Wind Up Rex[/MENTION]
I've usually found that the most zealous and ideologically blinded feminists (with some exceptions in either gender) are men.

I'd take hanging out with feminist women over hanging out with tradcon women any day of the week. Tradcon women are also wolves in sheeps' clothing, in my experience. They will stroke male egos to extract money and security, whereas a feminist woman might tend to be more blunt and direct--I've seen how the older traditionalist Christian women in my family can manipulate their men. Where a lot of conservative men screw up is thinking that type of woman is an improvement and better alternative to feminist women. Obviously exceptions exist in either case, but I think these men are misguided. Be like Bill Burr, marry a liberal feminist. Challenge yourself. I think a little ideological tension can be healthy to a relationship, whether it be one between friends or lovers.

Sorry, rant done

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

I I like feminism. And I certainly want equality between the sexes. And I think in terms of the external world, women are at a disadvantage to men. But...

I think what a lot of women don't understand is, because they take their inner life for granted, when men are stripped of their identity of worldly power/accomplishment, they have nothing else. They live in an external, soulless world of objects (or believe they do, anyway). And they have been conditioned to think that their purpose is to acquire/control these objects. Because men are raised to believe that they do not have inherent worth or value beyond what they do, they are human doings not beings. We are disposable instruments, human shields to the vulnerable. So I think naturally, a lot of dudes freak out when women challenge their dominance in these spheres, and want to halt this progress. We don't birth children, and we don't get to own the big hunter/provider/warrior role anymore, do we even matter? Men are in a very brittle and insecure state these days. That's probably why in this thread disco is so insistently harping on male physical dominance in fighting.

Men are supposedly on top of the world, and yet we kill ourselves 3X more than our female counterparts. We make up over 90% of the world's prison population (when we dominate Silicon valley it's an outrage, when we dominate prisons it's just the natural order of things). We often struggle to create and maintain basic human connections. We may make 30 cents more on the dollar (or whatever the figure is), but that doesn't mean we are doing well or truly succeeding in life. Human fulfillment extends beyond material prosperity. We are very vulnerable, but we are (A.) afraid to show it, (B.) seldom aware enough to show it even if we wanted to, and (C.) unequipped to deal with it, even if A and B were present.

I think if we focused on developing emotional well being in men, a lot of the shit feminists are concerned about would be fixed. And a lot fewer (straight) men would treat their partners like an erotic mother figure, because they would be equals emotionally. I'm not talking about wussifying/infantilizing men, because there is nothing infantile about an emotionally mature man. I'm talking about creating psychologically hardy and empathetic men, the kind of dudes who don't abuse/intimidate women just to feel big, the kind that are fucking rad dads and husbands. Also, the kind of dudes who wouldn't spend all day whining on MRA message boards about feminazis lol

I think it's great that women are finding their confidence and asserting themselves in the outside world. But men have a trickier, more abstract journey to make within themselves. Men need a movement, maybe more of a spiritual movement (and I mean that in the loosest sense of the term) But how do you form a movement around developing empathy, vulnerability and self-care in a group of people who are emotionally stunted and have been taught to fear such inner, abstract work?

Hopefully we can all work together. Because just as feminist need help from men who occupy traditional roles of worldly power, men need female allies who traditionally are the gatekeepers of empathy/vulnerability.

I've moved on from a brittle place, to just showing feminists they don't live in reality. There are differences both physical and mental, and to say otherwise is willful ignorance. And also with how crazy things are getting in the country that warrior role might be coming back.

I love how the terms of the debate are feminized, we have to develop emotional well being in men. I think men need an outlet. We are aggressive, and some are violent.

Being offered outlets like contact football MMA etc. are necessary for a healthy populace.

We need more not criminal aggression and violence in sports etc and in culture to offer an outlet for this.

You'll never improve our lot thinking, oh lets just send them to an emotional well being seminar.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

Why are so many men wallowing in violent videogames?

Because there are almost no legitimate outlets for aggression and violence. We keep these tendencies in men bottled up through the entirety of their formative years, and we expect this not to have an impact on the populace.... HA.

When you have a massive subset of dijected aimless men, you create the conditions of civil unrest.

 

[FemMecha]

Good point.

Yeah, that's clearly bullshit, and the idea that you were never meant to be good at this should be fought against.

I will say that, while I don't deny that there was a gender component, this can happen when two men are competing for something, as well. I feel like I've definitely suffered professionally from me having difficulty in the past with promoting myself.

This quote was in response to my experience losing funding to a bit of a con artist who happened to be a man. I completely agree that this happens regardless of gender. I think it was more his ability to con with words than the gender issue, but the reason I included that anecdote was because people described getting preferential treatment and funding as a result of minority or gender status, so it was an attempt to show that isn't how it plays out every time. There are plenty of instances where women and minorities do not get funding, even in cases of being more qualified. I'm not saying it always happens, but that it can happen.

I think that's an interesting take, the idea of behavioral modification. Perhaps it is possible to push back against that using behavioral modification.

One point I was hoping to make in my post was that both genders participate in the behavioral modification to keep social dynamics at status quo, whatever that happens to be in a society at a given time. It does make sense to use the same method to push back, although I don't know if I could put it into practice myself.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

femestry or galgebra?

 

[Starry]

Why are so many men wallowing in violent videogames?

Because there are almost no legitimate outlets for aggression and violence. We keep these tendencies in men bottled up through the entirety of their formative years, and we expect this not to have an impact on the populace.... HA.

When you have a massive subset of dijected aimless men, you create the conditions of civil unrest.

And this is the fault of Feminism? Please.

Do you know how many men have written on and preached the virtues of non-violence long before Feminism was a thought in some poor barefoot and pregnant woman's mind? It's called civilization...which women merely wanted to have a say in.

How much would you attribute this condition to a shift from a Labor to a Service Industry?

I also feel like saying "create your own damn legitimate violent outlets". If you are the aimless men you claim to be this will give you something to do.

 

[Coriolis]

I'm arguing that women shouldn't be door kickers, that is a very small slice of the jobs available.

Depending on where they are and the circumstances of the conflict, women might be just the troops we want for this job.

Just curious. Don't know how frequently it occurs.

When women are excluded from combat jobs, probably not often.

Why are so many men wallowing in violent videogames?

Because there are almost no legitimate outlets for aggression and violence. We keep these tendencies in men bottled up through the entirety of their formative years, and we expect this not to have an impact on the populace.... HA.

Any man interested in an outlet for aggression can play a sport like football or rugby, do martial arts, or join the military. They can address their own frustrations on this count through making appropriate life choices, rather than blaming society around them, or taking their aggression out in criminal violence.

 

[Lark]

Depending on where they are and the circumstances of the conflict, women might be just the troops we want for this job.

When women are excluded from combat jobs, probably not often.

Any man interested in an outlet for aggression can play a sport like football or rugby, do martial arts, or join the military. They can address their own frustrations on this count through making appropriate life choices, rather than blaming society around them, or taking their aggression out in criminal violence.

Anyone who knows anything about total warfare knows that women are involved, either as fighters or some form of ancillary support which is vital, fascists of old understood this and that's why the general said "kill the women first" when they were fighting the future in places like Spain.

As to the outlets of aggression, I agree completely, the great warrior cultures of all of history recognised this as vitally important too, with the possible exception of the Vikings, I'm not sure many fascists would want to endorse them given the role of shield maidens and matriarchy in their histories.

Ironically most warrior cultures tried to accomplish some shape or form of limited warfare as normative, as opposed to the total war that arrive, again, with modernism.

 

[Forever_Jung]

Forever_Jung i think it starts with breaking down the taboo around being vulnerable. It is so oftenco sidered a weakness ( when it canbe a source of great strength) that it effectively isolates people from each other. The amou t of men who told me things they never would tell even their best mate coz 'men dont do that shit', when i was someone they only just met, are more than i can count. And the relief in their voice to finally get this shit out combined with the look of shame and fear of rejection was hardbreaking to watch.

No man is an island should become a mantra in society imho, in order to break down those stupid walls.

And with that, a skillset of being ok with being uncomfortable with vulnerability should be built up as too many people, often women included, but especially men, are fully unaware that they lash out unjustly when confronted with the vulnerability in another person, especially in another man. Its like they see their own insecurities in a big mirror and cannot help bu try to destroy it, causing more shame, pain and isolation. Most even consider it an emotional manipulation as no sane person would divulge such weakness wothout an agenda or angle.

And so the walls get reinforced, and everyone is banished to their own private emotional hell on their little island.
It's insane, especially considering intimate connection with others is vital to our overal wellbeing and happiness.

Yes, this is a great post. If you can't acknowledge something in yourself (in this case emotional vulnerability), then you will have this visceral reaction to it when you see it externalized. And of course this applies to women too.

I love that we're starting to see vulnerability/authenticity become more discussed in our culture. The immensely popular WTF podcast done by Marc Maron, is like a beautiful audio archive of emotional authenticity, and the guest list is fairly male-dominated. I would never describe guys like Louis CK, Artie Lange, and the late Patrice O'Neal as "feminized", and yet they are clearly sensitive, flawed men who use their art to connect with others and process their own pain.

As much as I loved Batman and other male heroes growing up, a lot of them aren't good role models in dealing with vulnerability. They basically tell you to disguise your vulnerability, choke down your feelings, and never ask for help. Disguise your true self and put on a mask of strength. I am pretty excited for kids now that we're starting to see more sensitive, emotionally open male heroes like Steven Universe:

I love how the terms of the debate are feminized, we have to develop emotional well being in men. I think men need an outlet. We are aggressive, and some are violent.

Being offered outlets like contact football MMA etc. are necessary for a healthy populace.

We need more not criminal aggression and violence in sports etc and in culture to offer an outlet for this.

You'll never improve our lot thinking, oh lets just send them to an emotional well being seminar.

I don't disagree but do you really think the men committing violent crimes out there just didn't play enough football? It's not as simple as that. And if I want to use the phrase emotional well-being, that doesn't make it feminized. I find it descriptive and accurate. Even if your emotional well-being requires being allowed to punch dudes, I still think of it as emotional well-being. And I never proposed a seminar lol But if I did, I think a surprising amount of men would be interested in a conference of male spirituality/vulnerability. Anyway, et me address the stuff I agree with you about:

I think the important thing for men is developing discipline over their aggressive impulses and finding the right contexts to use it. I can't find it now, but I remember reading a hockey book, where hall-of-fame defenseman Denis Potvin talked about how much he loved bodychecking. He described it lovingly, the impact, the crunching sound against the boards, etc. It struck me that for a lot of guys, this sort of thing was as good as any embrace. Hockey is an interesting example of aggression and control, because there are definite rules that are in place to ensure your hits are "clean" and "sportsmanlike". No hits from behind, no elbows, etc. And if they do lose control of their aggression, their team is penalized, and they;re now allowed to play for a few minutes. It's a pretty good teaching tool for controlling aggression through play.

I'm not a naturalist by any means, but I think even with animals you see how there is a place to express aggression through play. I think women could use that outlet as well, to some degree. I think more of this sort of thing across the board would be positive, because our society isn't quite sure what to do with unexpressed aggression. If you don't give it an outlet, then it will erupt in awful and inappropriate ways, like you said.

Honestly though, I've played sports my whole life, I'm not tiny or feeble, but I've never felt like I needed it to express all the pent up violence inherent in my biology. I used to think there was something wrong with me, but there isn't. One of my favourite things about my job is that I visit schools and read silly stories to kids. It's not because feminists castrated me, or I didn't have a strong father figure--I'm just a guy who doesn't have the urge to hit people all the time. To me, real masculinity is just being confident and comfortable with yourself.

I've moved on from a brittle place, to just showing feminists they don't live in reality. There are differences both physical and mental, and to say otherwise is willful ignorance. And also with how crazy things are getting in the country that warrior role might be coming back.

Haha, oh the warrior role is still here, I just meant men don't hold exclusive rights to it anymore. Women fight for their country, serve as police officers, punch people professionally.

I know what you're saying about the physical limitations thing, though I have to say it comes off as petty to always bring it up. I mean it's a just a matter of size. Even within men's boxing, they have very strict weight classes. But you wouldn't just dismiss Oscar de la Hoya as a great fighter because he couldn't have defeated Butterbean or Tyson or whoever.

There's nothing you wrote that I can disagree with. But then you have this kind of fuckery.



Or men that post pics and videos of themselves everywhere possible. Not to prove a point but to illustrate their level of narcissism. In their world there are two kinds of men. Them and the ones feminism created. And you can't tell them otherwise because their off the charts anger at the state of their own lives makes people write them off entirely. They don't want to be psychologically hardy and empathetic men, they don't want to improve or evolve. They want to be completely accepted, respected and treated like real men. Not called out as the raging dickheads they actually are.

I know. I'm not labouring under the delusion that a bunch of guys are just secret bleeding hearts who just wish feminism would let them cry. But I think we can get there eventually. Just about everyone has that light in them, whether they want people to see it or not. Most guys I know are more than capable of being good people. But yeah, it might take a century or two

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

The pendulum swings as I always say, and we are watching our cultural pendulum swing right now.

The cultural dominance of feminist ideology is waning. Re are being reborn (painfully) I wonder what America looks like on the other side.

 

[Qlip]

The pendulum swings as I always say, and we are watching our cultural pendulum swing right now.

The cultural dominance of feminist ideology is waning. Re are being reborn (painfully) I wonder what America looks like on the other side.

I think it'll have Pence's nose, and Trump's hairline.

 

[Kingu Kurimuzon]

Chris Ray Gun is boning Lacy Green now.

 

[Qlip]

Chris Ray Gun is boning Lacy Green now.

I don't really know who that guy is, but I did see some of Laci's Red Pill content. What I caught seems healthy, actually.