Toxic Feminism

[Lark]

Antifeminism - Wikipedia

Are people under the impression that there was a time when being a feminist was cool or something? It has always been "toxic".

Yeah, good enough point.

Though there are anti-feminist women, some of their perspective I couldnt possibly share but some of them are libertarian or anarchist in their outlook and they've attacked the feminism for too many reasons to list, some of its about the movement, some of its about when the movement has been able to effect change, ie not enough, not the right sort, some of its about representation, ie not enough, not the right sort (and some of this is very, very interesting to me, there's questions about power and process and its "maleness" and identification, do individual feminists, or groups, or movements or the mass of what is referred to as feminism itself, identified with women or men).

Feminism's diversity and disparity as a movement, its fragmentation and the fact its actually survived at all, arguably some of its goals have been achieved and its still around, arguably some of socialism's goals were achieved (not many, not correctly I'd argue but all the same, socialism did change capitalism) and I wouldnt say that it is around as a result (if it is, its such a shocking shadow of its former self, a sort of zombi or frankenstein monster) make it more interesting than a lot of other political ideologies.

That is if you're interested in politics and political ideologies at all as opposed to being hopelessly partisan and unable to appreciate anything about anything else (I know its not wine vintage or anything but you get the idea).

 

[kyuuei]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION]

To respond to the OP directly, there IS somewhere in the middle here. Mansplaining is not 'drivel' ... it is a real thing that happens to women. All the time.

Famous case in recent news, not 30 years ago:

Astrophysicist Katie Mack lays the smackdown on mansplainer with droll Twitter burn – Women in the World in Association with The New York Times – WITW

You couldn't watch, anywhere in the US, the very first female UFC fight without a "catfight" or cat-noise or "there should be mud in there!" being sounded off by some ass thinking he's so funny. And when it turned out to be a better fight than all the shitty men cuddling on the ground, people shut the fuck up and started cheering. And the whole time, I was scared--scared it'd be a meh fight like all the rest had been and no one would ever take women's fighting seriously.

You look at some of the most famous women out there--let's take Oprah for example.. and while she doesn't dwell on it constantly, she DOES acknowledge how she DID have to work harder. There are whole interviews where she talks about having to muscle her way to being one of the most powerful PEOPLE in the US, not just woman, with key men def spouting shitty rhetoric that we'd all find appauling today.

Or the toxic philosophy career choices for women..

What is it like to be a woman in philosophy?

It's there. The reason feminism is there is very clear. And men DID start this... You can't have a movement as large as feminism without the majority of the people in power (not-even-arguably men) doing too many shitty things to push people into starting it.

... But here's the thing. You CANNOT Have toxic masculinity without women being involved. Men alone did not create this within themselves.. Men didn't just keep telling men that women like this and need this and women pretending they had no hand in it is garbage. Half the population does not develop like this when they have sisters, mothers, cousins, and females all around them.

Toxic femininity is ALSO a thing. It is merely toxic behavior... and assigning the stereotypes of that gender to it. For masculinity it is refusing emotions to the point of harm, harrassing women for sex, and generally acting like a psychopath. For women? It's acting like women have an air of superiority, belitting the men around them, falsely accusing men of rape, manipulating men with the promise of sex, and generally acting like a psychopath.

For an example of the behavior I see that disgusts me and pulls me away from feminism.... Here is a quote I lifted, keeping it anon, from my FB feed. Took me all of 2 minutes to find this BS. This isn't an extreme lady painting her body with "MEN SUCK" running naked in the square. This is just someone's friend, a normal person.

" "Just like your witty DM slide is actually just one more wave in a never ending ocean of mediocre cock crashing on the beach of a woman's day." Oh my. This person obviously visited both my Facebook page and my Twitter feed today. So brilliant. I need to save this one. "

1. Why the FUCK would you keep ANYONE on your FB feed or twitter feed if this is the kind of responses you are getting? Man or woman. I don't receive comments like this. From anyone. It isn't that it NEVER happens... but when it has, I have made active choices to cut them out of the situation. You get to control who talks to you on social media--big shocker. You can fucking change it.

2. I have more male friends than female ones 10:1 ratio. That's a large margin. I worked with men mostly in all of my careers except this one... Yet. I don't get hit on even a fraction of the time my fellow females say they do. I don't get rando dick pics. I don't get men clamoring at my social media door. In the past year I have made 8 new male friends--and not an issue with any one of them. Some single, some not. While I can definitely say the way I carry myself is different from others (I do not place emphasis on my sexuality in public spaces in general) around me... it is also, I believe, that I see men as humans and respectable first. Even when I was clearly more mature than them, and they were making awful awkward mistakes.. I worked with them instead of treating them as another cock trying to land on my beautiful, unique beach of independent individuality. I don't find mysef superior to any man or woman.

Because women are fucking boring and generic too if men are. Because we are products of our environment. When you treat men like "a sea of cocks" Why the fuck am I going to respect your opinion on how shitty men are? YOU DO NOT USE THE WEAPONS YOU CLAIM TO BE AGAINST. If men are all just a sea of cocks, women are all just sexual objects waiting for the right guy to crash against them.

https://lookism.net/Thread-Black-Pill-Child-rapist-tinder-experiment-FULL-PICS-OF-MODEL-MORE-CONVOS

TLDR: Guy pretends to be a pedophile, says so right there, but looks hot, so women still message the fuck out of him. You think these are all lovely, serene beaches that are just getting attacked by dick pics? People are PEOPLE. They're all shallow, awkward, thirsty sums a bitches. While trends DO show in some genders, you can always find the other side of the coin.

No one tells this woman she sounds like a psychopath. That she sounds like she's playing victim when YOU HAVE 100% CONTROL OVER WHO MESSAGES YOU ON THESE THINGS. No one does ANYTHING but like and congradulate her repeating this nonsense that is belittling men in a tantrum of horseshit.

I don't see any feminists talking about the issues in their own group. And that's where I have the fucking problem with them. I don't believe in anything that pits men vs women. Everyone loses that game.

I have women ATTACK me when I post my opinions and I happen to have a male face in my avatar. I tell them I'm female and the tone immediately changes to a softer one. It's horseshit. I have women and men telling ME I'm the rude one when a woman posts in our small group, "can we start a women's only group to discuss the needs of our part of the community?" and I reply, "I don't believe in arbitrarily excluding half the population here." The leader of the group is male, and this is the most loving, hippy ass group I've ever been a part of. And STILL women INSIST they need their own space from these guys that are doing NOTHING but showing them platonic affection and interest in similar hobbies. They tell me "I'm missing the point." I'm just daft for thinking that seems really unnecessarily exclusive for no god damned reason.

All of it is horseshit to me. All of it.

 

[entropie]

There is a femen activist here in Germany, who walks in public naked with a box that has a slit, so you can touch her vagina. She then lets people touch it on the streets. Her stetment is: if she decides someone can do it, he or she can do it. She is the master of her body.
Besides that she painted a picture with eggs that were filled with color and she shoot them out of her vagina on the painting.

Until today I thought she was completly nuts but today I watched a show that prolly comes from the States and you know it, its called big brother. They put some semi-popular people for two weeks into a house and let the situation escalate. She is in it too and I have seen the first week today and she is an absolutely normal being. She didnt talk about feminism for a single minute, what is pretty unusual for activists, they can be quite obsessed. But so far, she ist the most attractive woman in the house, cause she is very normal, wise, caring and a leader.

I dont want to say something with this, it just surprised me.

 

[Doctor Cringelord]

I agree there's always been a toxic side of it that is either glossed over or ignored, even going back to the first wave with things like the white feather campaign in which many suffragettes partook.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

Role models are a start, but the dynamics that cause under-representation of certain demographics of people are complex. It also helps to address the history of science and acknowledge the scientists from various demographics who are part of our history. I'm not in the sciences, so I don't know all the specifics of how to solve issues in each context. Perhaps everything doesn't have to result in equal representation from everyone, but when there are noticeable imbalances it seems worth addressing without this idea that someone is consciously trying to make that happen. There is no need for "fault" with any of these discussions.

Good point.

I'm comfortable with my experience and career, but have faced pressure on the basis of gender that could have had a negative impact for some. For example the older generation of women in my family criticized me for pursuing graduate school and told me it was selfish (even though I don't even have children, so it was simply a choice of how to spend my own time). I studied a history in my field that consisted mostly of men, although I created my own sense of history by researching all the historical women in my field. When I was 18, I had some feeling of not belonging in my field because of looking and being so different from the norm. Think about how anyone feels during training - you get critiqued so much, the pressure is intense, and it is easy for anyone to doubt themselves. Now add to that an entire historical record that says people "like you" can't or don't do this. There are assumptions of sometimes intelligent, but prejudicial people who make a "compelling" argument that you were never meant to be good at this.

Yeah, that's clearly bullshit, and the idea that you were never meant to be good at this should be fought against.

Now imagine choosing a field that everyone just assumes you will do great at and so comments from known and unknown people all support this. To venture into an area of skill not associated with people who look like you requires the ability to keep going even when pressured that you are 'objectively wrong because so many think otherwise'. I could do it because I have a natural lack of caring that much what people think, but my long years of training were a barren path in terms of cultural support, and my case wasn't that bad. There is also a kind of contempt I have encountered that often has a sexual component professionally that has been very stressful for me. I have not benefitted from any kind of demographic based funding during school or later. I once lost funding to a man with lesser skill, but that was because he had the ability to brag himself up in a way I don't.

I will say that, while I don't deny that there was a gender component, this can happen when two men are competing for something, as well. I feel like I've definitely suffered professionally from me having difficulty in the past with promoting myself.

He never created new work while in the program, but kept pulling up work from the past, so he shouldn't even have been there. The person who gave me the best career opportunities has a world-class professional reputation and is female, and the person who did most of my training was brilliant, open-minded and male. That is how the cards played out for me and some of those details may not relate to how it typically goes, but it is listed as events.

A lot of the issue is basic behavioral modification at the cultural level - rewards and punishments for choices that do or not not align with norms, assumptions, and expectations.

I think that's an interesting take, the idea of behavioral modification. Perhaps it is possible to push back against that using behavioral modification.

Making role models available is very important. If few people from your background are in a particular activity or career, it can be hard to see it as a viable alternative for yourself. This can be either a practical recognition of known or suspected barriers (e.g. bias in hiring, hostile work environment), or the less conscious internalization of the idea that "that just isn't for me". My father thought this way about college originally, until the example of some army buddies showed him otherwise.

Even so, change will be long in coming. This is because we are working not against a law, that can be repealed with a single legislative vote; or a company hiring policy, that can be revised with the stroke of the CEO's pen; but rather against expectations ingrained in our culture. As we have seen with attempts to keep kids off drugs, all the outreach and publicity in the world (DARE, anyone?) has a hard time competing with peer pressure, culture, family expectations, and the practical realities of needing to get by every day. The increasing numbers of women in historically male careers and pursuits shows what happens when artificial impediments are reduced. We are on the right track, we just need to keep going.

Good analogy with DARE. I like that you articulated why it's not specifically a legislative problem, and why we still need progress despite having legislative remedies for at least some of these issues (I hear that often brought up as an argument against the need for feminism).

 

[Mole]

Antifeminism - Wikipedia

Are people under the impression that there was a time when being a feminist was cool or something? It has always been "toxic".

Usually it is ingested substances that are toxic or harmless, but the rule is: 'the toxicity lies in the dose'. This rule makes no sense when applied to feminism because feminism is not a substance, and so is not toxic or harmless.

So 'feminism is toxic' is a metaphor which links two unrelated ideas: 'feminism' and 'toxicity'. And the purpose of the metaphor is to cast feminism in a pejorative light. And it works because 'toxic' has become a cliche of the New Age applied to people, ideas, and ideologies that are not cool. The word 'toxic' resonates through the New Age as a way of dissing, dismissing, and demonising those things beyond the pale of the New Age.

 

[Masokissed]

Most things that are well intentioned have a bad side, or some degree of toxicity. But ultimately it has the best goal of really any movement IMO: equality among literally everyone. Some people just use to hate on certain others or will call people out too much on things that don't deserve that. It's better in theory than practice which is again true of many things.

 

[Lark]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION], I know you work in the tech industry, can I ask was this thread inspired by the memo circulated by the guy at Google?

I heard that had escalated to death threats.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

These are popping up on public benches in the area of the Google campus.

 

[Red Ribbon]

I can, in that case. I guess I see a lot of effort to reach out to women with regard the STEM education. I suppose my main question is why those efforts aren't more effective. I suppose I'm inclined to support the idea of sexism being a cause, but I feel motivated to play devil's advocate on this issue, probably to feed my own 6 wing.



Do you think if we promoted more female role models in STEM, then things would change, or are additional efforts needed? Again, just playing devil's advocate.

I know this isn't directed at me but I thought I'd chime in because of an experience I had.

Here, in India, my seniors and professors have told me that certain companies don't hire women at all or hire them only in certain positions. The reason they said is that men are more capable than women when it comes to doing tasks that require a lot of physical power, like operating heavy machinery. I actually believed this and didn't see a problem with it. However, I had a chance to do an industrial training in South Africa and I went there and was surprised to see how hands on the women there were. They kind of opened my eyes and proved to me that women can work in the field and be just as good as the men were.

I don't really know what it's like over there in the west, but I think the reason that the methods of getting women into STEM are ineffective is because women believe that men are more suited for STEM so they don't really seriously consider it. There's no point in advertising about something to someone who isn't even considering it. Changing that isn't going to happen overnight. I imagine if there should be equal numbers of men and women in STEM, it might even take a few generations. This is why, I think meanwhile giving women special privileges isn't going to work because it only superficially addresses the problem. I do believe things are changing and are going in the right direction. I don't understand people's desire to push it. I think it has to happen naturally.

 

[highlander]

[MENTION=8936]highlander[/MENTION], I know you work in the tech industry, can I ask was this thread inspired by the memo circulated by the guy at Google?

I heard that had escalated to death threats.

No it wasn't but I did like that memo.

 

[Lark]

No it wasn't but I did like that memo.

I dont but was interested. Thanks.

 

[Coriolis]

I spent yesterday morning with a group of about 20 people, all of whom would describe themselves as feminists. They were mostly women, but included a couple men. The average age was probably close to 60. The women reached adulthood when Help Wanted ads in the newspaper were still grouped by gender; when housewives needed their husbands' signatures to make bulk grocery purchases; when pregnancy was grounds for being fired, from even the least physically demanding jobs; when far fewer women went into STEM fields, or a career of any kind.

One might argue that these problems have largely been corrected, and one would be right. My point is that these women and men watched it happen, and helped it happen. They understand the effort and sacrifice that went into it. They understand on a personal level how far we have come, because they experienced it. They see also how far we still have to go, to reach an ideal that existed even before their generation. They have no patience for those in the younger generation who try to hard to distance themselves from the feminist label, while enjoying what was achieved under it. They know why feminism was needed, and why it is needed still.

When I think of feminism, I think of people like this.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

First female seal drops out

So GI Jane was fiction after all.

She didn't even drop during BUDS training, she voluntarily quit during the vastly easier pre BUDS portion of training.

 

[DiscoBiscuit]

And apparently the army cheated to get a 37 year old woman through the rangers.

 

[Starry]

Yeah, good enough point.

Though there are anti-feminist women, some of their perspective I couldnt possibly share but some of them are libertarian or anarchist in their outlook and they've attacked the feminism for too many reasons to list, some of its about the movement, some of its about when the movement has been able to effect change, ie not enough, not the right sort, some of its about representation, ie not enough, not the right sort (and some of this is very, very interesting to me, there's questions about power and process and its "maleness" and identification, do individual feminists, or groups, or movements or the mass of what is referred to as feminism itself, identified with women or men).

Feminism's diversity and disparity as a movement, its fragmentation and the fact its actually survived at all, arguably some of its goals have been achieved and its still around, arguably some of socialism's goals I were achieved (not many, not correctly I'd argue but all the same, socialism did change capitalism) and I wouldnt say that it is around as a result (if it is, its such a shocking shadow of its former self, a sort of zombi or frankenstein monster) make it more interesting than a lot of other political ideologies.

That is if you're interested in politics and political ideologies at all as opposed to being hopelessly partisan and unable to appreciate anything about anything else (I know its not wine vintage or anything but you get the idea).

Thanks for this response Lark. I'm not in a place where I can comment in a way I would like (service cuts in and out) but thank you just the same.

Oh and I had to go cold turkey on politics a while back...but perhaps someday I can consume it responsibly again I hope.

 

[Starry]

Usually it is ingested substances that are toxic or harmless, but the rule is: 'the toxicity lies in the dose'. This rule makes no sense when applied to feminism because feminism is not a substance, and so is not toxic or harmless.

So 'feminism is toxic' is a metaphor which links two unrelated ideas: 'feminism' and 'toxicity'. And the purpose of the metaphor is to cast feminism in a pejorative light. And it works because 'toxic' has become a cliche of the New Age applied to people, ideas, and ideologies that are not cool. The word 'toxic' resonates through the New Age as a way of dissing, dismissing, and demonising those things beyond the pale of the New Age.

This is actually very beautiful Mole - thank you so much for it.

 

[Lark]

Thanks for this response Lark. I'm not in a place where I can comment in a way I would like (service cuts in and out) but thank you just the same.

Oh and I had to go cold turkey on politics a while back...but perhaps someday I can consume it responsibly again I hope.

I do that too, go cold turkey on politics, sometimes I've had to go cold turkey on people per se but that's a different story, anyway, I'm a fan of JS Mill's understanding of what politics was or could be, I wasnt always, embarrassingly, in my youth I would have conformed to many of the opinions in the piece by Umberto Eco which I posted elsewhere, although I've always been left wing and civil libertarian for the most part.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

I do that too, go cold turkey on politics

I just feel like it's become so insubstantial. Maybe it's always been that way, though.

 

[kyuuei]

First female seal drops out

So GI Jane was fiction after all.

She didn't even drop during BUDS training, she voluntarily quit during the vastly easier pre BUDS portion of training.

....

And apparently the army cheated to get a 37 year old woman through the rangers.

1. She still got further than most of the men I know in my daily life. Most dudes don't even volunteer to try, not just for seals--but for the military in general. Some do and then don't make the cut. I've heard some of the lamest excuses in the world for not trying--like "I don't do well with people telling me what to do" and "I just couldn't lose the 5 lbs I needed to lose to enlist" and other BS excuses. She's more badass than most normal civilian guys who haven't done a lick of trying in that department. It's easy to sit back and criticize a woman for trying and failing... but when men out there haven't even tried themselves, I'd say it's bullshit to talk any shit. And even those that do, no man gets booed and looked down upon in such a snobbish manner when they cannot complete the training. Men have a far from 100% completion in NORMAL military training, and less in special ops like the seals. So why all the hate and anger that she failed? If it truly is biology, you wouldn't be so fired up about it--it would work itself out... no woman will finish the training, end of story, if biology is truly the major factor at play here. She is not the first person to drop out of SEALs training sessions... She is just the first of many women who will try.

2. We're all taught from a young age it's better to try and fail than to not try at all--so I don't see why it's 'fiction' that she tried her best, but knew her limits. It's a powerful thing to know your limits. She had a lot of pressure on her, and she made the best decision for her body and life. That's a mature, adult thing to do. I would expect that from any good soldier.

3. I really don't understand the snobby attitude about all of it. You're against women in combat roles, we get it. But as a woman who has done combat roles, talking to a man who has not, I can guarantee you I haven't ever once snubbed my nose at any man or woman who couldn't make the cut on any job (civilian or military) based on their gender alone, but rather the merit of their character. I'll always applaud someone trying and failing before I applaud someone backseat driving and monday quarterbacking thinking they know wtf they're talking about. I do believe biology plays a factor in situations like these--but I do not believe in stopping anyone from trying their best. If a rare woman with the ability to do this job comes along, I don't believe in limiting her because 'most' women couldn't. I don't see the seals lowering their standards for the sake of a woman anytime soon. If a woman passes, it'll be because she was a total badass.. like the men who pass.

4. Men seem super protective of jobs they don't ever do. Unless you were a seal yourself (forgive me if I'm wrong, but I believe you don't have military service yourself) I really don't see your opinion counting as much as those who do the jobs themselves. They let her try out. The military saw fit to bring that barrier down. I don't see why people who don't even DO anything in that realm are suddenly up in arms. If you don't like it..Feel free to join, work your way up the ranks, and get that decision changed. But you'll have quite a few women doing the same in the process. And I think, honestly, your time and talents are better suited elsewhere.