The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

[Red Memories]

Donald Trump is not aligned by party, he is aligned by his own self interest.

This country was built on a mentality of giving, of freedom, of escapism from the enforced rule of England to allow people's individualism here. However, throughout history we have continued to repeat the sort of mentality we attempted to escape from (i.e. the protestants persecuting the Irish catholics, segregation, slavery, so on) and yet continuously we refuse to accept that if we do not learn and adjust history it is doomed to repeat itself. People have to put their "I am right and you are wrong" aside to grow, compromise, find the most efficient solutions, and ignore special interest. Of course, in my mind, Trump has no reason to enter office outside of stroking his own ego and pardoning and rescuing whoever he wanted and benefitting his rich friends while attempting to convince people that he was on their side. Not that I feel Clinton was greatly better - and I think we should not forget the corruption which existed in the democratic party to make Hilary the nominee. But republicans should have turned against trump long ago because he is not a Republican. and he is not a Democrat. He is of his own individualism. Full of himself. A lack of empathy is a growing epidemic no one wants to discuss. They will always hide behind some party line while doing the opposite when they obtain the power. And the people need to stop being complacent and allowing it.

 

[highlander]

That's been part of the problem. Trump isn't a true conservative on much of any scale. By taking over the Republican party, he has effectively sidelined responsible conservative voices that make constructive contributions to the national discourse on issues of the day, not to mention legislation and policy that address them.

Given so many Republicans have enabled him over the last four years and voted to overturn the election, I'm not sure I'll vote Republican ever again. It seems a majority in the party no longer have integrity and don't value truth. To me, that's more important than policies. I'll do what I can to get any and all those who voted to overturn the election out of office over the upcoming years. Not forgetting...

 

[Stigmata]

Donald Trump is not aligned by party, he is aligned by his own self interest.

This, 100%.

Notice how when he didn't get the sort of congressional support from the Republicans, particularly in the Senate, he started having his cronies hold rallies leading up to the Georgia Senate Runoff races challenging Purdue and Loeffler to aid him in his quest to overturn the election, and if they didn't do so then they were aiding Democrats and therefore weren't worthy of the votes of his supporters.

Given how close those races were and that the Dems flipped both seats, you can surely partly attribute some of the blame on Trump's denigration of his own party members to the reason both seats flipped. He has shown that if the Republican party doesn't blindly follow his every whim and show absolutely loyalty, he'll bring the whole thing down to spite them all.

Notice also how as they finalized the bipartisan relief bill and settled on $600 stimulus payments, he throws out the demand for $2,000 and therefore causes his own party to break with him and suffer the ensuing terrible optics that came with denying the American people aid right before a Senate race which would decide who held the majority? Donald Trump is about Donald Trump.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

McConnell is full out admitting Trump provoked the mob with lies. AP: McConnell said Trump ‘fed lies’ to mob about Biden election

I'm really hoping that as higher up Republicans start admitting the truth about Trump (as he progressively loses his power to hurt their careers), it helps to deprogram a significant amount of his cult followers. There are obviously a lot who will never make that journey back - but any amount of 70 million supporters getting deprogrammed would be a plus.

 

[Virtual ghost]

Well convicting Trump now is kinda the only way to significantly purge his influence in the party. So it is logical that the establishment turns on him. Especially since that frees the candidacy for 2024 and the party can do with it whatever it wants.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I'm going to guess that convicting him won't make nearly as much a dent in his support base as other big Republicans speaking out against him. Supporters tend to see such things as being enforced by "deep state." I mean, even the SCOTUS rejecting his argument about election fraud is getting perceived as "deep state" corruption? Even if not specifically calling the new heavily conservative SCOTUS Justices "deep state", some ridiculously high percentage of Trumpublicans believe Trump was cheated out of winning the election by fraud.

So I don't think any amount of actually getting convicted (regardless of the seriousness of the conviction) will make him lose support. They believe his spin about being the victim of conspiracy and the ever-nebulous "deep state." But having other powerful Republicans speak out might make a dent.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I mean, I 100% believe convicting him needs to happen for the sake of precedent. But I don't think it'll hurt his support.

 

[Jaguar]

I mean, I 100% believe convicting him needs to happen for the sake of precedent. But I don't think it'll hurt his support.

Not from the populists, anyway:

"It's going to be massive, massive, there are going to be so many people that are going to come," supporter Annie Marie Delgado said. "They're going to welcome this president home, and it's going to be peaceful and it's going to be exciting."

When Mr. Trump returns to Palm Beach, Delgado plans to be front and center at the airport. She had previously been head of Trump Team 2020, a statewide group of Trump loyalists.

Asked if she thinks the president's move will make South Florida the heart of the GOP, she replied, "now now brown cow, you said the bad word in my book."

The "bad word" was GOP.

"I'm a Trumplican," Delgado said. "We have to do some serious clean-up work in the 'GOP,' especially in the state of Florida."

It's the GOP that needs to take a flamethrower to populists like her.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I'm going to guess that convicting him won't make nearly as much a dent in his support base as other big Republicans speaking out against him. Supporters tend to see such things as being enforced by "deep state." I mean, even the SCOTUS rejecting his argument about election fraud is getting perceived as "deep state" corruption? Even if not specifically calling the new heavily conservative SCOTUS Justices "deep state", some ridiculously high percentage of Trumpublicans believe Trump was cheated out of winning the election by fraud.

So I don't think any amount of actually getting convicted (regardless of the seriousness of the conviction) will make him lose support. They believe his spin about being the victim of conspiracy and the ever-nebulous "deep state." But having other powerful Republicans speak out might make a dent.

I said significantly purge, but that doesn't mean that the whole thing will go away completely. However if top Republicans, new administration and all media do their jobs well the number of his supporters can be reduced significantly in the foreseeable future. Actually once they see he is actually out of office they will start to lose their "faith". But there will probably be a group that will continue the story.


Actually the key element is what the party itself will do. Will they go back to the business as usual or they will try to find him "sane replacement". What restarts the cycle.

 

[Virtual ghost]

I said significantly purge, but that doesn't mean that the whole thing will go away completely. However if top Republicans, new administration and all media do their jobs well the number of his supporters can be reduced significantly in the foreseeable future. Actually once they see he is actually out of office they will start to lose their "faith". But there will probably be a group that will continue the story.


Actually the key element is what the party itself will do. Will they go back to the business as usual or they will try to find him "sane replacement". What restarts the cycle.

I mean Trumpism as a whole has it's roots, therefore if you genuinely address the roots the "insanity" will start to fade. Just sending all people money in this whole situation would rally help in quieting down the situation (this is exactly why sane governments are doing it across the globe). But on the long run all of this can be generally undone if you have a good policies implemented. In my local history there is fair amount of examples that are generally similar to all of this (and in some of the them the coup even worked), but on the long run people still got deprogramed. Since that is simply the effect of time and good governing only speeds this up.

 

[cascadeco]

I mean, I 100% believe convicting him needs to happen for the sake of precedent. But I don't think it'll hurt his support.

I agree. But too, all of this has kind of spun beyond trump. There are Boebert's in the world now, and I don't see anything but some of this gaining more traction, unfortunately. I mean, now that all of the conspiracy freaks and Qanon, etc, have been 'activated', trump isn't even particularly necessary. I mean, there are former trump supporters even on this site who have moved beyond him and are now effectively his new movement.

Edit: And, back to the thread title: THIS is exactly why over half the country was basically in doom-land back in 2017: We knew the real danger was the fact he was empowering all of these fringe folks and ideas, and him being voted in was everyone basically choosing to turn a blind eye on his vileness. If someone like him gets voted in and enabled, guess what folks in the populace then feel empowered?

 

[Virtual ghost]

I agree. But too, all of this has kind of spun beyond trump. There are Boebert's in the world now, and I don't see anything but some of this gaining more traction, unfortunately. I mean, now that all of the conspiracy freaks and Qanon, etc, have been 'activated', trump isn't even particularly necessary. I mean, there are former trump supporters even on this site who have moved beyond him and are now effectively his new movement.

Of course it did. This is exactly why I said a number of times that it is absolutely vital that new administration delivers something of meaning and something that can be measured at the same time. Since that is the real counter to the current mess. Especially since problems in this sphere are what got "him" elected in the first place. Even if he is just a symptom.


All of this can be solved if you have a brain and legal power. .

 

[Mole]

The USA is effectively a number of countries united by a mythology. The mythology is powerful to counteract the centrifugal forces pulling the country apart. And the creativity of the USA comes from the balance of these two forces.

Not all countries are as beautifully balanced as the USA, but we admire the way Americans navigate their national tightrope, and we fully expect to see the USA dancing on the tightrope.

We support and love the USA, we love watching the drama of being American, and find it an abiding interest.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I agree. But too, all of this has kind of spun beyond trump. There are Boebert's in the world now, and I don't see anything but some of this gaining more traction, unfortunately. I mean, now that all of the conspiracy freaks and Qanon, etc, have been 'activated', trump isn't even particularly necessary. I mean, there are former trump supporters even on this site who have moved beyond him and are now effectively his new movement.

Sam Harris put out a short solo podcast (his own opinion) awhile back about how he thinks part of Trump's appeal is that he's *so* base that no one feels inferior in comparison to him. I'll link it here if I can find it. It's short and interesting - something that hadn't occurred to me on my own, but which makes sense to me.

Transcript: The following is a verbatim transcript of episode #224 of the Making Sense Podcast by Sam Harris, published on Nov 3, 2020 — the eve of the 2020 election.
— — —
As all of you know I’ve been struggling for years to understand how it is possible that nearly half of American society admires or at least supports Donald Trump.
I’ve spoken with Trump voters in search of illumination, but illumination never came. For instance I had Scott Adams on my podcast to explain this to me, and he described Trump as a master persuader — perhaps the best he’s ever seen. But the problem for me is that I find Trump to be among the least persuasive people I have ever come across.
Whenever I see him speak I see an obvious con-man and ignoramus. In fact Trump seems to be so unaware about how people like me judge a person’s credibility that his efforts to appear credible, such as they are, always make him look ridiculous and even deranged. So the claim that he’s a brilliant persuader makes about as much sense to me as the claim that he’s a model of physical fitness would. In my world, the claim can be disproven at a glance.
And yet one thing is undeniable: half the country views him very differently.
Until a few minutes ago, I had more or less reconciled myself to never understanding this, but I believe at this late hour, on the very eve of the 2020 election, I have discovered a significant part of Trump’s appeal. In particular I think I finally understand how he is supported because of his flaws, rather than in spite of them.
That really is the key.
How are all the things I find despicable in him, not merely things that people are willing to overlook, but reasons in and of themselves why people support him?
That’s what I didn’t understand until this moment.
Now I have repeatedly described the man’s flaws on this podcast. To my eye, he lacks nearly every virtue for which we have a word. Wisdom, curiosity, compassion, generosity, discipline, courage — whatever your list, he’s got none of these things. But his supporters know that. And he’s a paragon of greed, and narcissism, and pettiness, and malice — real malice. This is a man who wears his hatreds on his sleeve. And he will suddenly revile people who he claimed to admire only yesterday, so while he demands loyalty from everyone around him — really above all else — he’s an amazingly disloyal person. All of this is right on the surface. So his appeal has been a total mystery to me.
But I believe I have now solved that mystery.
Again — I don’t know why it took me so long, because many of these thoughts have been in my head since the beginning, and I’ve certainly heard people describe some parts of this picture, but the whole image just fell into place for me.
It’s like one of those magic eye illustrations, where you’re staring at a random dot stereogram forever, and then finally the embedded 3D image just pops out. And this picture of Trump’s appeal is really best understood in comparison with the messaging of his opponents on the left.
That’s how you can see it in stereo. That’s how the image finally pops out.
So to take the Trump half of this picture:
One thing that Trump never communicates — and cannot possibly communicate — is a sense of his moral superiority. The man is totally without sanctimony. Even when his every utterance is purposed towards self-aggrandizement. Even when he appears to be denigrating his supporters. Even when he’s calling himself a genius — he is never actually communicating that he is better than you. More enlightened. More decent. Because he’s not. And everyone knows it.
The man is just a bundle of sin and gore, and he never pretends to be anything more. Perhaps more importantly, he never even aspires to be anything more. And because of this, because he is never really judging you — he can’t possibly judge you — he offers a truly safe space for human frailty…and hypocrisy…and self-doubt. He offers what no priest can credibly offer: a total expiation of shame.
His personal shamelessness is a kind of spiritual balm.
Trump is fat Jesus. He’s grab-them-by-the-pussy Jesus. He’s I’ll-eat-nothing-but-cheeseburgers-if-I-want-to Jesus. He’s I-wanna-punch-them-in-the-face Jesus. He’s go-back-to-your-shithole-countries Jesus. He’s no-apologies Jesus.
And now consider the other half of this image — what are we getting from the left?
We’re getting exactly the opposite message. Pure sanctimony. Pure judgement.
You are not good enough. You’re guilty, not only for your own sins, but for the sins of your fathers. The crimes of slavery and colonialism are on your head. And if you’re a cis, white, heterosexual male (which we know is the absolute core of Trump’s support) you’re a racist, homophobic, transphobic, islamaphobic, sexist barbarian. Tear down those statues, and bend the fucking knee.
It’s the juxtaposition of those two messages that is so powerful.
I’m sure many of you have understood this before me, but for whatever reason this image just became crystal clear. Needless to say, everything I’ve said about Trump previously still stands for me.
I consider him to be terrifyingly unfit for office, and I consider most of his personal flaws to be public dangers. I think because of who he is as a person he has harmed our politics and diminished our standing in the world to a degree that might take decades to repair, so I sincerely hope we rid ourselves of him tomorrow.
But I believe I now understand the half of the country that disagrees with me, a little better than I did yesterday. And this makes me less confused and judgemental.
Less of an asshole, probably. Which is always progress.

^The Sam Harris thing. It might be insight into all of them (the Whatsit supporters, Boeber supporters, etc)?

Anyway, what I also wanted to say is that Twitter blocked Marjorie Taylor Whatsit for 12 hours the other day. It's reassuring (imo) that they're cracking down on conspiracy/misinformation across the board. It'll help.

Edit: And, back to the thread title: THIS is exactly why over half the country was basically in doom-land back in 2017: We knew the real danger was the fact he was empowering all of these fringe folks and ideas, and him being voted in was everyone basically choosing to turn a blind eye on his vileness. If someone like him gets voted in and enabled, guess what folks in the populace then feel empowered?

Yeah.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

So I'm struggling because my mother is COVID-19 positive in a nursing home, and it would be total shock if she survives. I understand that no matter who was president that people would die of this virus, especially vulnerable people like my mother, but still, when you actually go through having a loved one struggle and die with this, how come so many forgive Trump so easily? over 400 thousand deaths and those are all connected to multiple family members. There is probably even a disproportionate number of Trump supporters among them since that is the more careless demographic.

They don't have even a moment of rage towards him? They readily forgive? Why? Because he's too sexy for this shit fucking porn stars behind his wife's back? What great thing did he do? Sign some documents against human trafficking while creating and implementing policies that fed the industry with actual children being turned back into Mexico without guardians from the border and non-profit anti-trafficking organizations pleaded with Ivanka to stop the policy? Is that why they love him? Is it because his best buds and neighbors were the FBI named kingpins of human sex trafficking and he was a back room guest at their parties for years? Are his imitations of the disabled just so hilarious that we must forgive the policies that kill our loved ones? What is it? Was it the suggestion we all drink bleach to stop this? This isn't "Fake News", but it is shit that came directly out of his mouth and caught on film. What makes Trump so adorable and forgivable to half the country?

Not feeling it. I'm feeling rage that put so many at risk.

 

[Siúil a Rúin]

Donald Trump is the actual, realistic, real-world villain his followers espouse to exact justice from. He is the mobster profiting from human sex trafficking and being charged with raping children in detailed depositions. He is everything they accuse his opposition of being sans the aliens and Satanic rituals.

 

[Julius_Van_Der_Beak]

From the video above (this was 90 or 89):

"Hey, it's Donald Trump, he's chasing the good guys away. That doesn't make sense.

"It makes perfect sense."

 

[ceecee]

At this point hasn't Q been wrong about literally everything?

 

[Z Buck McFate]

So I'm struggling because my mother is COVID-19 positive in a nursing home, and it would be total shock if she survives. I understand that no matter who was president that people would die of this virus, especially vulnerable people like my mother, but still, when you actually go through having a loved one struggle and die with this, how come so many forgive Trump so easily? over 400 thousand deaths and those are all connected to multiple family members. There is probably even a disproportionate number of Trump supporters among them since that is the more careless demographic.

They don't have even a moment of rage towards him? They readily forgive? Why? Because he's too sexy for this shit fucking porn stars behind his wife's back? What great thing did he do? Sign some documents against human trafficking while creating and implementing policies that fed the industry with actual children being turned back into Mexico without guardians from the border and non-profit anti-trafficking organizations pleaded with Ivanka to stop the policy? Is that why they love him? Is it because his best buds and neighbors were the FBI named kingpins of human sex trafficking and he was a back room guest at their parties for years? Are his imitations of the disabled just so hilarious that we must forgive the policies that kill our loved ones? What is it? Was it the suggestion we all drink bleach to stop this? This isn't "Fake News", but it is shit that came directly out of his mouth and caught on film. What makes Trump so adorable and forgivable to half the country?

Not feeling it. I'm feeling rage that put so many at risk.

Just a reminder about that nurse from Idaho (or South Dakota or wherever) who posted stories about how people were getting angry about being diagnosed with Covid "because it isn't real", and it was increasingly becoming the case that literally their last words before going on a ventilator (and never waking up) were expressing anger about how they're being misdiagnosed. And there was that guy at the Tulsa rally who said he had a hard time knowing who to believe because he already had a couple close friends die - yet there he was at the rally without a mask, so it was clear who he believed more. I think when a person is almost completely immersed in a reality (everyone they know believes XYZ), it's easier to spin something that's (otherwise) highly unlikely to make the reality still fit than it is to change the reality - especially when an emotionally charged "us vs. them" situation is super-charging attachments to that reality. And in short, they're probably attributing the deaths to something else.

This is not meant to bring comfort. I am so, so sorry about your mom (and dad). It didn't need to be this way, it is absolutely Trump's fault. For as many people who remain blind to this, there are at least quantitatively more who know it's true and hate him for it.