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The Dangerous Case Of Donald Trump

Jaguar

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This sort of attitude is why I almost didn't make that autism thread. I never wanted to compete with other people over illnesses, nor was it an intent to minimize others' problems, including the problems of neurotypical, ablebodied, ableminded people.

Had I known you were autistic, it would have explained a lot of your past behavior. Does that make it okay? Hell, no. But it would have been less shocking, that's for sure. So it's actually better from where I am standing that I know you are autistic. And we can go on from here, anew. Btw, my post had nothing to do with your illness. It had to do with several women who have been attacking others for years - going so far as to accuse others of faking their illnesses so they wouldn't "cut in on their action" so to speak. At some point one needs to finally say what the fuck is going on around here?

Peace out.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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The only drama being stirred up is by you and those who simply suck the oxygen out of the air with their constant attention-seeking, hateful rants.

You just told me not to respond to you, but since you responded to me after saying that, I will say I can't recall what's been hateful about my posts, beyond the fact that I don't think it's an unforgivable to sin to tax billionaires and millionaires more.
 

Jaguar

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You just told me not to respond to you, but since you responded to me after saying that, I will say I can't recall what's been hateful about my posts, beyond the fact that I don't think it's an unforgivable to sin to tax billionaires and millionaires more.

And you simply side-stepped it by inserting the words "another poster" when you were referring to me. So that plan just got thrown out.
 

Z Buck McFate

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I'd be happy to help you out. Assuming you're one of the leftists, we likely do not have the same definition of 'fair.' For the sake of (avoiding) argument, lets just pretend I didn't use that word at all, and just stick to the later in that sentence- 'impartial,' or better yet 'indifferent.' The same system that entire rest of the planet and animal kingdom abide in. I believe in individuals, not a 'big machine of people.' Thinking of millions of individuals in terms like that is how INTJ movie villains are made. People who want to control other people are not people I find endearing, worth looking up to, or happy. I prefer to focus my will to control things on things in which that is actually possible, and recommend this practice in general for everyone for the sake of their mental health- which essentially just comes down to worldview.

I'm inclined to think that ignoring the big people machine is precisely how INTJ movie villains are actually made. Interesting.

What is this "control" you're talking about? Very specifically, would you list some ways you think the left wants to control you?

If you don't understand why people on the right are the way they are, and navigate life with the principals and disciplines that they do, I don't think you quite understand it. Most of us are brutal logicians, and just because we couldn't care less about the same things people on the left care about, doesn't make us 'flat earthers' about those things.

The "flat earthers" comment is more about the capacity to willfully ignore the fact that the freer the market is, the more wealth trickles upward. It's been proven. That is consistently how reality plays out. It's available to ignore that and focus on the individual, whatever that means - but from where I sit it kinda looks like simply ignoring that the individual is necessarily a component of the big people machine. Ignoring that - or just 'not focusing' on that - doesn't get rid of the consequences of wealth trickling upwards. Wealth disparity is growing, there's a 'frog in hot water' thing happening - this notion that people can escape poverty with willpower is a myth, and it's becoming a bigger and bigger problem - and measures need to be taken to buffer the steadily and distinctly upwards distribution of wealth.

As an INTP I get systems- truly- I get how people on the left feel: that for society to work everyone needs to work together; every individual needs to work for the group- or in more moderate leftist circles the group and the individual. I can see the same 'big machine' that you see- and all of the endless bottlenecks, weak points, broken parts, overcharged parts, neglected parts, etc- but in the great chess game of life I am not interested in touching that rook. It's one pawn forward at a time for me.

I'm not sure you do. This can of worms ('big people machine' metaphor) is already giving me a headache. Suffice it to say, at least a modicum of attention needs to be payed to the rest of the chess board in order to have a board to keep playing on oneself. You doubtless get this, but are likely immersed (as immersed as I may be in the other direction) in a viewpoint that amplifies some aspect of your side whilst simultaneously drowning out some essential aspect of the other side. But this is the last chunk I'm responding to (doing them out of order) and I just stopped giving a shit. Totally and completely, just now. Except I will say that I try to grasp the whys and wherefores of the other side, and in the current political climate it's difficult to even get someone to answer questions (instead of spewing histrionic pettifogging/non-answers) - so thanks.

Also, what are these back breaking jobs that don't pay bank?

I worked in an assisted living facility for years, and most of the caregivers needed to work at least two jobs and still struggled to cover the cost of living. The physical work involved can be brutal. But the issue with many back-breaking jobs is that they pay the cost of living in the immediate sense, but they trash a person's body before retirement age. So they need to pay more than the immediate cost of living. People end up on disability around 40 years old. I'm rubbish at researching things (I read & listen to podcasts to pick this stuff up, and then can't for the life of me remember where to look when I need a link) so I don't know how to find support for this, but I know it accounts for a great many of the folks on disability - they can't continue to do the work until retirement age.

And then there's reports of Amazon warehouses, which seem to be barely physically sustainable beyond a few years.

Also, who says you have to work for anyone but the customer?

I suspect you're trying to make some bigger point here, but the notion that every single person has a potential 'customer' - reliably so, that'll wholly cover the cost of living - is weird and unrealistic to me. It isn't human nature to automatically see things this way. The reality is that predators get to people before 'customers' do, and until the day when it's genuinely become common sense to distinguish the difference between the two (I'm looking at you, STNG), predators need to be regulated. Not regulating the predators because people 'should' already instinctively know the difference between the two is, like I said, weird and unrealistic. That's like not locking my doors at night because people 'should' have enough respect to not break in and steal things.

But maybe you can expound on what you mean by 'customer', because I'm not sure I'm following.


I don't think the disparity should be great as it is. But I wouldn't go as far to say a McDonalds employee should make the same as a white collar business person either. There's still got to be incentives and merit consideration. That said, McDonalds could definitely stand to pay better.

Has anyone here said this? (I don't read most of the posts in this thread, so I'm actually asking. If anyone has said this, it confirms that not reading every post is for the best.)

And anyway, +1 to this.

Very few on the left want to abolish income inequality. They just think it is too high and should be mitigated to a certain degree. Studies show most people vastly underestimate the extent of this inequality. Selfmade millionaires are the exception rather than the rule. Most wealth is inherited. Wanting to pass on a legacy is understandable. The real question is if and to what extent considerablet inheritance should be taxed. Then there is the idea of a Tobin tax.
On the other hand few on the right want people to die in a ditch or endorse semifascist social darwinist views. Thankfully that is a rare extremist position and mostly an adolescent phenomenon. They are merely skeptical when they are asked to show solidarity with people they don't consider part of their group. And they tend to strongly dislike being forced or pressured to do something good rather than do it out of their own Initiative.

Yeah (bolded), and to a stunning degree. eta: Which, admittedly, is what "vastly" means - but I felt compelled to tack on "stunning" for emphasis.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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Has anyone here said this? (I don't read most of the posts in this thread, so I'm actually asking. If anyone has said this, it confirms that not reading every post is for the best.)

And anyway, +1 to this.

Apparently it was implied but not said directly, and I think someone may have accused me of strawmanning the democrats. But I thought it was worth clarifying, since there are a scattering of citizens on the far left of the democratic party and beyond who might actually want to see absolute wage equality across the board. I realize that isn't a view held by the majority of dems though
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Has anyone here said this? (I don't read most of the posts in this thread, so I'm actually asking. If anyone has said this, it confirms that not reading every post is for the best.)


Well, people have been using it as a strawman. Nobody has actually said they believe that. Others have just been accusing other people of believing that.
 

Virtual ghost

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He's a paleo with some neoliberal tendencies.


"Conservative" on the two sides of the Atlantic has a different meaning and towards the culture of the person who said what you quoted Trump isn't a conservative. Personally I also agree with that claim.


To us Trump is a textbook populist with strong personal agenda (something that our side of Atlantic saw way more than yours).
Explaining Trump with Con/Lib political graph can't really be done.
 

ceecee

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That even isn't the biggest flaw of what you quoted. My place has very "socialistic" economy and we still have very rich people which have become rich based on their skills and influence/charisma.

Skills/influence/charisma/criminality, yes those people exist in most countries. The US is also quite socialistic when it comes to corporate subsidies. The richest industries get the biggest welfare checks, 56 percent of the total tax subsidies went to just four industries: financial, utilities, tele-communications, and oil, gas & pipelines. But that is how the 1% works after all.
 

ceecee

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These last few pages read like a whole lot of strawmen, projections and assumptions. Very few on the left want to abolish income inequality. They just think it is too high and should be mitigated to a certain degree. Studies show most people vastly underestimate the extent of this inequality. Selfmade millionaires are the exception rather than the rule. Most wealth is inherited. Wanting to pass on a legacy is understandable. The real question is if and to what extent considerablet inheritance should be taxed. Then there is the idea of a Tobin tax.
On the other hand few on the right want people to die in a ditch or endorse semifascist social darwinist views. Thankfully that is a rare extremist position and mostly an adolescent phenomenon. They are merely skeptical when they are asked to show solidarity with people they don't consider part of their group. And they tend to strongly dislike being forced or pressured to do something good rather than do it out of their own Initiative.


Anyway, Trump isn't a conservative by any reasonable standard. Conservatism is about preserving institutions and doublechecking before accepting social change. It is not about ruthlessly destroying valuable institutions, agreements and partnerships and shitting on the carpet.

He's a neolib mostly but as president that's completely skewed - the goal of neoliberlism is political power. He has that. So he's moving on to authoritarianism/totalitarianism or whatever combo he can grab. Apparently he's wondering why we can't get rid of all the federal judges.

'Let's get rid of the f---ing judges': Anonymous book claims Trump wanted to reduce number of federal judges
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Skills/influence/charisma/criminality, yes those people exist in most countries. The US is also quite socialistic when it comes to corporate subsidies. The richest industries get the biggest welfare checks, 56 percent of the total tax subsidies went to just four industries: financial, utilities, tele-communications, and oil, gas & pipelines. But that is how the 1% works after all.

Yeah, they're fine with using other people's money when that money goes to them. Taxation isn't theft if they aren't the ones paying the taxes.
 

anticlimatic

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I'm inclined to think that ignoring the big people machine is precisely how INTJ movie villains are actually made. Interesting.

What is this "control" you're talking about? Very specifically, would you list some ways you think the left wants to control you?

Oh gosh, what don't they want to control?

The item at the top of their list is thought- they want me, and essentially every human being on the planet, to think as they do- to fret as they fret- to speak as they speak- and to act as they act. And not without good reason! For the entire leftist utopian philosophy to work, every single person needs to be on board with working for the group- not the individual. It just takes one person to decide they want to be king, and it all comes falling down. The inherit impossibility of the everyone-for-the-group goal (individuals being just that- not cogs in a singular machine), despite how compelling the vision of what things would look like if it were possible, is probably the A #1 reason I apply my thoughts and sense of morality elsewhere- I see the leftist agenda as a waste of time doomed only to end in (hopefully) disappointment, or worse- Venezuelan levels of devastation.

They need me (everyone) to jealously hate rich people as much as they do. They need me to worry about climate change as much as they do. They need me to prostrate myself on the alter of victomhood and apologetically offer up my privilege in sacrifice the way they do. They also need more of my money than they already take- which would be the second reason I can't get on board with it from an ethical perspective- accomplishing most of their goals requires theft, which I can't condone. Not from me, and by proxy (fairness) not from Bill Gates either.

Anyone not in the left, views the left as a kind of religion/cult- one that arose from the vacuum left behind by kicking Christianity out of things, out of the fundamental human need for religion (ie meaning/life purpose/utopian goals). They view it this way because it's the only way we can explain how it spreads, and why its members are as grave and impassioned as they are. It's a religion based on the most superficial levels of empathy, and driven by most of the classic human vices- greed, avarice, jealousy, and a thirst for power- at least that's how I perceive it. Most people I know on the left (in person, not overall) are just people who care, a lot, about the planet and about other people- but are also woefully out of touch with the darker parts of their nature (which we all bare) and consequentially don't realize when a good intention is thinly wrapped over a more sinister impulse. I can't fault people for their tenderness, and I don't blame them for wanting to make the world right- but first principals are first principals and the ends do not justify the means (my INTJ villain reference for the paragraph).


The "flat earthers" comment is more about the capacity to willfully ignore the fact that the freer the market is, the more wealth trickles upward. It's been proven. That is consistently how reality plays out. It's available to ignore that and focus on the individual, whatever that means - but from where I sit it kinda looks like simply ignoring that the individual is necessarily a component of the big people machine. Ignoring that - or just 'not focusing' on that - doesn't get rid of the consequences of wealth trickling upwards. Wealth disparity is growing, there's a 'frog in hot water' thing happening - this notion that people can escape poverty with willpower is a myth, and it's becoming a bigger and bigger problem - and measures need to be taken to buffer the steadily and distinctly upwards distribution of wealth.

See, I just don't think this way. Wealth is not a zero sum game to me. The more rich people the better in my opinion, as I greatly prefer working for rich people- they always pay up, and most of the time they will hand you a blank check to do whatever work you think is necessary. When rich people do well they hire me, and 50 other guys, to remodel their home- which feeds me for a year, and gives me more money to throw at servers in restaurants. If you're tired of working some shit job doing nothing of much value for an asshole, pick one of the dozens of careers that are currently in demand (by customers/clients) and go into business for yourself. This is what I meant by working for the customer, and cutting out the tower of middle men (managers/bosses/owners/etc). Almost all of them can be learned by almost anyone. I call it 'the next tier up in employment/adulthood.' If you're smart, you'll pick a profession that has a lot of upward mobility and complexity, so that when you move nearer to retirement and your body isn't what it used to be, you can still act in a productive consulting/supervising role. These people who feel like they should be able to get a mindless no-responsibility no-risk job when they're 19, and keep it for life while also being paid far more than they are worth, are some of the 'disgusting sheeple' I mentioned in prior posts. I'm sorry but life is not, should not, and never will be, that easy.



I just stopped giving a shit.

Yes! You know the feeling! This is exactly how we feel about most leftist causes. The only difference being- we on the right don't need you to care, the way you need us to, for our philosophy to function. The futility of it, again, is just too much of a turn off for this logician. I am open to new ideas (socialism is not one of them), but so far the system the right backs is the only one that seems to work with very little overhead- so it's the one I'm going with until someone comes up with something better.


I worked in an assisted living facility for years, and most of the caregivers needed to work at least two jobs and still struggled to cover the cost of living. The physical work involved can be brutal. But the issue with many back-breaking jobs is that they pay the cost of living in the immediate sense, but they trash a person's body before retirement age. So they need to pay more than the immediate cost of living. People end up on disability around 40 years old. I'm rubbish at researching things (I read & listen to podcasts to pick this stuff up, and then can't for the life of me remember where to look when I need a link) so I don't know how to find support for this, but I know it accounts for a great many of the folks on disability - they can't continue to do the work until retirement age.

And then there's reports of Amazon warehouses, which seem to be barely physically sustainable beyond a few years.

I have steered many people away from being CNAs for this reason. People should clean houses for a living instead (far more lucrative), or if they have the mind for it- go into nursing.

Yeah, they're fine with using other people's money when that money goes to them. Taxation isn't theft if they aren't the ones paying the taxes.

Trust me, we are most definitely NOT fine with corporate welfare. And maybe if we could find any degree of common ground instead of this endless hateful war, we could actually act on that one.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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Trust me, we are most definitely NOT fine with corporate welfare. And maybe if we could find any degree of common ground instead of this endless hateful war, we could actually act on that one.

Some people seem to think it's fine, though, because those folks actually deserve that tax money, unlike all the bums who don't work hard enough to be rich.

Or at least, that's the impression that I get.
 

anticlimatic

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Some people seem to think it's fine, though, because those folks actually deserve that tax money, unlike all the bums who don't work hard enough to be rich.

Or at least, that's the impression that I get.

Those people are probably going 'people on the left hate them? THEY MUST BE SAINTS! GIVE THEM MORE!'

Yeahhh... people on the right may have the better world view, but life being as ironic as it is, they tend to be a lot dumber than people on the left.
 

Virtual ghost

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The richest industries get the biggest welfare checks, 56 percent of the total tax subsidies went to just four industries: financial, utilities, tele-communications, and oil, gas & pipelines. But that is how the 1% works after all.


Farming ?
 

Yuurei

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I worked in an assisted living facility for years, and most of the caregivers needed to work at least two jobs and still struggled to cover the cost of living. The physical work involved can be brutal.
But the issue with many back-breaking jobs is that they pay the cost of living in the immediate sense, but they trash a person's body before retirement age. So they need to pay more than the immediate cost of living. People end up on disability around 40 years old. I'm rubbish at researching things (I read & listen to podcasts to pick this stuff up, and then can't for the life of me remember where to look when I need a link) so I don't know how to find support for this, but I know it accounts for a great many of the folks on disability - they can't continue to do the work until retirement age.

And then there's reports of Amazon warehouses, which seem to be barely physically sustainable beyond a few years.

This is true. A nurse a met a few weeks ago would go home around midnight and return at six at 6 am. He was only ever home for a few hours of sleep. He has NO time to live his damned life and you know they don't pay him what a human life is worth.

A few of the nurses at the Dialysis center told me that they were working a 13 hour shift-before going to her second nursing job.

The fact that the labor is indeed 'back breaking; is not the only problem. It is very delicate work. One misstep could easily do irreversible damage or even kill and these are working from before sun-up until long after sun down. This is not the sort of industry where you want employees to be exhausted.

But then, it is and industry and profit is the main goal. So a patient gets injured or killed? They've got enough lawyers to cover any lawsuit. ( or they could just throw the employee under the bus) Beyond that; not their problem. Business goes on as usual.


Some people seem to think it's fine, though, because those folks actually deserve that tax money, unlike all the bums who don't work hard enough to be rich.

Or at least, that's the impression that I get.

I'm sure you've seen/read some of the documentaries about Mid-Went farmers? Some of the loudest whiners about 'leeches on government subsidies' when they themselves are recipients of the largest subsidies in the country. Their farming practices are not sustainable or even remotely profitable but they can't do anything else. So the government basically pays them to continue existing.
 

Tellenbach

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Red Herring said:
Selfmade millionaires are the exception rather than the rule.

"A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made."

Some historical perspective is in order:

At the turn of the 20th century, the jewish immigrant had on average $20 in their pockets. Today, jewish Americans are the most successful demographic. This is evidence that upward mobility is very possible through hard work and education.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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"A 2017 survey from Fidelity Investments found that 88 percent of millionaires are self-made."

Some historical perspective is in order:

At the turn of the 20th century, the jewish immigrant had on average $20 in their pockets. Today, jewish Americans are the most successful demographic. This is evidence that upward mobility is very possible through hard work and education.

Huh? Does the report say anything about whether or not they are Jewish?
 

Tellenbach

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Julius_Van_Der_Beak said:
Huh? Does the report say anything about whether or not they are Jewish?

I didn't read the report, but that 88% figure isn't what most of you believed.

How do you think so many Jewish Americans became rich? I'm thinking they studied a heck of a lot and put a super high priority on education.
 

Tomb1

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Thanks to organized crime, bootlegging, bribery, etc, Jews, Italians, and Irish found a way to beat a rigged system in the first half of the 20th century. Good for them. It was easy back then, the FBI being so unsophisticated. The system was and still is rigged to work only for elitist snobs such that organized crime was a rational choice for a lot of subcultures, and those who made it through the dark side of the so-called American Dream opened doors for their own. Arguably, capitalism makes certain types of crime (bookmaking, drug dealing, loansharking etc) a rational choice for those who are playing against a stacked deck....
 
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