• You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our free community, you will have access to additional post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), view blogs, respond to polls, upload content, and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free, so please join our community today! Just click here to register. You should turn your Ad Blocker off for this site or certain features may not work properly. If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us by clicking here.

Random Politics Thread

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
26,235
I can only guess that people simply don't pay attention until something catastrophic happen. Paying attention, unfortunately is kind of a luxury for many in US society and I don't mean that in a condescending way. Life here makes sure you work and try to function with little safety net or social reinforcements until you are dead or close to it for the benefit of politicians and corporations who are one in the same. I don't mean low wage workers either, I mean everyone who is not the owner class. That is how you have razor thin margins and very little voter turnout and for a lot of people, it's just not worth it, overall. But in more local elections women now turn out en mass. Just not sure why they didn't before.
A lot of it seems to also be "I dont want it to be true so I dont want to think about it. So I'll just ignore it till I can't anymore." Because I talk to a lot of people around here and there's an intensity to them not wanting to see it. An intensity that to me indicates that they have to notice it in the room with them, but no one ever looks at or talks about it. They have to notice it to not notice it so consistently.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
21,133
I can only guess that people simply don't pay attention until something catastrophic happen. Paying attention, unfortunately is kind of a luxury for many in US society and I don't mean that in a condescending way. Life here makes sure you work and try to function with little safety net or social reinforcements until you are dead or close to it for the benefit of politicians and corporations who are one in the same. I don't mean low wage workers either, I mean everyone who is not the owner class. That is how you have razor thin margins and very little voter turnout and for a lot of people, it's just not worth it, overall. But in more local elections women now turn out en mass. Just not sure why they didn't before.

Actually all of this is exactly why to me it doesn't make any sense that turn out is so low. You guys for the most part have so low level of certainty and rights that it doesn't really make sense to gamble little of what remained. This is especially visible in the primaries where you can choose between more diverse field in most cases. I mean I vote on everything I can since that is important. Election day is the the only day when someone actually asks you something for real. So if you like one party just a bit more it doesn't make sense not to vote. Especially when you KNOW that you are in a swing state. Plus if your time is really that short you have the mail option (something that doesn't exist in most counties as option). Therefore when you think about it behaving of some people simply doesn't make much sense. Very rarely you will get two options that are literally equally good or equally bad for you. Therefore you may as well make your life easier.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
26,235
Actually all of this is exactly why to me it doesn't make any sense that turn out is so low. You guys for the most part have so low level of certainty and rights that it doesn't really make sense to gamble little of what remained. This is especially visible in the primaries where you can choose between more diverse field in most cases. I mean I vote on everything I can since that is important. Election day is the the only day when someone actually asks you something for real. So if you like one party just a bit more it doesn't make sense not to vote. Especially when you KNOW that you are in a swing state. Plus if your time is really that short you have the mail option (something that doesn't exist in most counties as option). Therefore when you think about it behaving of some people simply doesn't make much sense. Very rarely you will get two options that are literally equally good or equally bad for you. Therefore you may as well make your life easier.
That would require a certain amount of acceptance that you're actually living the life you actually have rather than the "American Dream" We're big on dreams here. The sweet dreams we distract ourselves with and the nightmare we keep waking up from and into again. Hell half the country is so terrified of waking up from the dream, they'll sacrifice their and their own children's future.

There's a lot of folks here who haven't realized that if they are characters in some grand movie of life, what roles they're playing in the heist.



Besides. There's a lot of curses coming due.
All debts must be paid. :(
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Werewolf of London
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21,522
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
The anticorporate but pro-billionaire turn in right-wing movements worldwide is the most baffling political turn I've seen.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

Werewolf of London
Joined
Jul 24, 2008
Messages
21,522
MBTI Type
INTP
Enneagram
5w6
Instinctual Variant
sp/so
Actually all of this is exactly why to me it doesn't make any sense that turn out is so low.
The truth, as I see it:

I think turnout is low because we don't actually have a representative democracy. People don't treat it like a system where they have a say and therefore don't participate in it because they recognize their voice isn't actually seen as important.

There were so many things I would do to actually make this a representative democracy. Dumping the electoral college (or should we have kept property requirements for voting?), making election day a federal holiday, getting rid of the media circus of "primary season" and make primaries all happen on one day, and having more than 2 parties,

There is not one good reason why this should not be one person, one vote. Somebody in Wyoming should not get to have 3 times more votes than me; I don't care about what bullshit arguments people come up with for why it is actually fair. The electoral college exists for the same reason as property requirements did; I'd imagine there are many people around today who think the property requirements were a great idea.

This is especially visible in the primaries where you can choose between more diverse field in most cases.

Primaries are a farce, at least on the presidential level, but I've encountered this at lower levels as well. I've never felt like my voice was heard during a Presidential primary. Do you know why? This is because I've always lived in places that have their "big day" after more than half of the states have already voted. Everyone already knows the outcome (and it is certainly presented as settled and decided). Why would anyone vote in an election when they already know the outcome? Only people like me who've had it drilled into them that it's a "civic duty".
 
Last edited:

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
21,133
The truth, as I see it:

I think turnout is low because we don't actually have a representative democracy. People don't treat it like a system where they have a say and therefore don't participate in it because they recognize their voice isn't actually seen as important.

There were so many things I would do to actually make this a representative democracy. Dumping the electoral college (or should we have kept property requirements for voting?), making election day a federal holiday, getting rid of the media circus of "primary season" and make primaries all happen on one day, and having more than 2 parties,

There is not one good reason why this should not be one person, one vote. Somebody in Wyoming should not get to have 3 times more votes than me; I don't care about what bullshit arguments people come up with for why it is actually fair. The electoral college exists for the same reason as property requirements did; I'd imagine there are many people around today who think the property requirements were a great idea.



Primaries are a farce, at least on the presidential level, but I've encountered this at lower levels as well. I've never felt like my voice was heard during a Presidential primary. Do you know why? This is because I've always lived in places that have their "big day" after more than half of the states have already voted. Everyone already knows the outcome (and it is certainly presented as settled and decided). Why would anyone vote in an election when they already know the outcome? Only people like me who've had it drilled into them that it's a "civic duty".


Yes, and these are all the changes that I proposed years ago. Plus I am the one that is kinda the loudest here regarding the multiparty system.
However there is one practical problem with all you have said. If people give up voting in mass and not go with the people that appear more sane the system will surely deteriorate even further. You can ignore the system but that isn't real solution to the problem. The system will exist regardless of what you do. In a sense you guys lost the Republican party to what is basically a cult at this point. What is because most of you are so boxed in your minds that to any of you it is unthinkable to register as Republican and go where the real fight is at this point (Republican primary). You and many others should vote for the most sane republicans you can find and then you vote democrat in general (or you would vote republican since you managed to make a new brand of Republican party through primaries) . What if enough people does would cover the worst of injuries and over time system would perhaps stabilize. What overall would basically be the mindset of the multi party system that you want, since multi party system means much more fluid logic of political thinking (I live in multi party system so I know). In reality there is no such a thing as Republican or Democratic party, there are only people moving in space and time. Everything else are basically abstractions.


Plus when I said primaries I really meant all of them, not just top level. Since through this process it is possible to change how exactly things work on your local level. As I said you are all too much focused on the top level (what is coming out the celebrity culture I suppose). But there are plenty of various local and regional offices between you and that level. The bulk of the system isn't even visible but it is evidently there. So with enough changes in the bulk of the system you should see visible changes at the top. While you guys as a nation are constantly trying to throw apple on a skyscraper, what simply can't happen. Instead you have to throw it up floor by floor. After all having roof without the bulk of the building means little.


I understand the frustration but if you give up you basically lose automatically. Having a normal life while politics is running out of control ... good luck with that.
As that saying says "Those that don't deal with politics, politics deals with them".
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
26,235
Bingo. Giving up is the last thing sane voters should do. We've reached the point where lives are on the line.
 

Virtual ghost

Complex paradigm
Joined
Jun 6, 2008
Messages
21,133
Bingo. Giving up is the last thing sane voters should do. We've reached the point where lives are on the line.


That was my point. Looking the other way isn't really the solution.
Especially since all of this is more than your average election.


To be fully honest I am not sure that the current strategy is really the proper one. Which is that everyone sane retreats from the GOP and everyone should keep their distance from the party, in order to try to somehow vote out the party from the distance. In other words as the opposition is retreating the more entrenched Tump's position is becoming. The fresh news is that Romney is retiring. So as many of my posts are suggesting I just don't like this scenario of giving Trump this much space. Especially since in the end the plan is to fight him with old people, unlikable people, morally questionable people .... and all of that on the last line of defense. Therefore In my mind it would make much more sense that more people go into the party and that they try to fix it in from within. Long ago it was said that attack is the best defense.



RCP Trump vs Biden

Take a look the polling at this point. Trump +0.4 and the Dems need at least 3 point win to have any chances at electoral college. In 2020 Biden won by 4.5 and he barely got over the line. We were waiting results for a week since it was that close in the swing states. So if things go 5 points to the right from that point you are surely underwater. Even a decent polling error will not save you. Plus to make things worse in 2020 polling was about 3 points to the left of final results. Therefore if the difference is 5+3 points that is 8 point difference from 2020. What basically means that the map is going totally red if you distribute those points equally.


I just don't see current strategies working and Trump has much better odds than many would like to admit. What is almost surely because he was given too much space. He needs stronger challenges within the party since that would disrupt various processes. So instead of everyone running from there they should actually go in there. To provide alternatives and different talking points in order to disrupt the circle. Polling gives Trump 40 point lead in the primaries and due to that he is expected to win every state. Plus he has a decent edge in the general as well if you ask the polls. After all polling errors tend to favor Republican party. To me all of this is just too impotent defense against the man that wants to shake things to the core (and probably in none constructive way). Thus I have real doubts that the current approach is the right one.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
26,235
That was my point. Looking the other way isn't really the solution.
Especially since all of this is more than your average election.


To be fully honest I am not sure that the current strategy is really the proper one. Which is that everyone sane retreats from the GOP and everyone should keep their distance from the party, in order to try to somehow vote out the party from the distance. In other words as the opposition is retreating the more entrenched Tump's position is becoming. The fresh news is that Romney is retiring. So as many of my posts are suggesting I just don't like this scenario of giving Trump this much space. Especially since in the end the plan is to fight him with old people, unlikable people, morally questionable people .... and all of that on the last line of defense. Therefore In my mind it would make much more sense that more people go into the party and that they try to fix it in from within. Long ago it was said that attack is the best defense.



RCP Trump vs Biden

Take a look the polling at this point. Trump +0.4 and the Dems need at least 3 point win to have any chances at electoral college. In 2020 Biden won by 4.5 and he barely got over the line. We were waiting results for a week since it was that close in the swing states. So if things go 5 points to the right from that point you are surely underwater. Even a decent polling error will not save you. Plus to make things worse in 2020 polling was about 3 points to the left of final results. Therefore if the difference is 5+3 points that is 8 point difference from 2020. What basically means that the map is going totally red if you distribute those points equally.


I just don't see current strategies working and Trump has much better odds than many would like to admit. What is almost surely because he was given too much space. He needs stronger challenges within the party since that would disrupt various processes. So instead of everyone running from there they should actually go in there. To provide alternatives and different talking points in order to disrupt the circle. Polling gives Trump 40 point lead in the primaries and due to that he is expected to win every state. Plus he has a decent edge in the general as well if you ask the polls. After all polling errors tend to favor Republican party. To me all of this is just too impotent defense against the man that wants to shake things to the core (and probably in none constructive way). Thus I have real doubts that the current approach is the right one.
It's coming down to the wire and we need to get our head in the game or we're heading for a total collapse. Extremeists don't make good decisions. If we don't get our head in the game and play to win, unite against fascism and authoritarianism... It shouldnt be at this point, but here we all are. Distractions abound in the crab bucket, but on the ground, unionization and workers rights are making some headway. The writers strike, the actors strike, even the game insdustry hopefully the less new distractions will be a benefit to sanity. People can start trying to wake up before we end up being Earth X
Things are coming to a head. the one thing we cant afford is doomerism and infighting drama. Teams are things that children play at to prepare them to be soldiers. Teams play to win. Somehow the alt right seems better at team building than a bunch of ideological purity bickering for clout. Even though they do that too. I see more and more the wisdom in the philosophy of know thy enemy. Unfortunately the American People by and large don't understand who and what their true enemies are.
They're looking down and next door when they should be looking up past the "Dream". Being easily distracted and fearful seems a tragic reason to lose everything, but then no less tragic than doomerism, or trying to exploit it towards one's personal gain. Delusional to expect an uncaring corrupted system to care about a single cog and wheel just because it does what its "supposed" to. The best tool in the tool box is still just a tool, to be used until broken or replaced by a shinier tool. Sentiment is discouraged as folly and sissy stuff. No exceptions...
It wont be romantic or glorious.
It'll be traumatic and like watching kaiju fight.
No one would win except the MIL
and whatever eats our collected remains.
The stakes have literally never been higher.
People are exhausted people are tired and burned out distracted or outright mad.
People are desperate and getting more so.
And one way or another desperate people form into something or get formed into something.
There is of course the tone of news and how doom sells papers and subscriptions, but there's enough things happening all over at once. A little "skirmish" here "a tiny battle" over there. wars are made up tiny engagements as well as big battles, none of it is glorious. Too many here have no concept of that. And there has been a big chunk of change spent marketing lack of empathy as desirable and strong for a long time on all sides of the gender euqation and across economic lines. A team cant function if everyone is only out for themselves. A team that can't function cannot achieve victory. Outside of sports metaphor, that gets people killed. All people really have is our ability to come together and unite against a common foe, be that foe physical mental spiratual or natural, people like forming communities. They will literally form a community over ANYTHING regardless of how ridiculous. From a marketing perspective, people don't know what they want they want what they know, they care about putting a man on the moon only in so far as it makes their lives better in some measurable way. Or gives them a catchy point to bitch about when those same miracles of technolgy become mundane and therefore tedious. People have evolved to become more social not less, its in all the data everything reflects this, and yet a small minority ideology of hate has somehow caught fire along side a cynical not even accpetance but acceleration of defeat. It's madness plain and simple. It's madness to just plow sand on the beach over what, the meaningless fleeting satisfaction of being able to say I told them so right before everything goes tragic and chaotic...no one ever dies quick or clean as they hope they do save for those few blessed souls who die during an orgasm. There are some things money can't buy. For everything else there's getting our shit together before its too late.​
 

Kephalos

J.M.P.P. R.I.P. B5: RLOAI
Joined
Mar 2, 2009
Messages
707
MBTI Type
INFJ
Enneagram
5w4
The EU’s liberals need better ways to deal with populists. The Economist.
How should centrist voters and parties respond to the threat from the hard right? The old answer was to erect a cordon sanitaire. Mainstream parties refused to work with the insurgents; mainstream media refused to air their views. That approach may have run out of road; in places it is becoming counter-productive. In Germany the isolation of the afd has reinforced its narrative of being the only alternative to a failed establishment. Mainstream parties cannot pretend for ever not to hear the voice of 20% of voters without eventually corroding democracy.

How should centrist voters and parties respond to the threat from the hard right? The old answer was to erect a cordon sanitaire. Mainstream parties refused to work with the insurgents; mainstream media refused to air their views. That approach may have run out of road; in places it is becoming counter-productive. In Germany the isolation of the afd has reinforced its narrative of being the only alternative to a failed establishment. Mainstream parties cannot pretend for ever not to hear the voice of 20% of voters without eventually corroding democracy.
Definitely, this (in many cases, as in the case of Spain, self-inflicted) policy of political red-lining distorts and ultimately undermines the system it is purported to protect. What happens is that eventually the mainstream parties lose support to the smaller, extremist parties (which I think has some moderating influence on them), making it extremely difficult if not impossible ever realistically to be in power again. This, in addition, is especially serious when the red-lining is ideologically asymmetric uone side has red lines but the other doesn't): the case of Spain's Popular Party and Germany's CDU/CSU are examples of this happening on the right-wing end of the political spectrum and Britain's Labour Party is an example of this happening on the left-wing end of the political spectrum.

Maximalism and a stubborn and ultimately conter-productive unwillingess to compromise (actual compromise, not "I get everything of what I want and you get nothing of what you want" demands for capitulation or unconditional surrender that often gets mistaken for compromise), are the underlying problems.
 

The Cat

The Cat in the Tinfoil Hat..
Staff member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
26,235
All or nothing Tommy T,
Do you support the troops or don't you?​
 

ceecee

Coolatta® Enjoyer
Joined
Apr 22, 2008
Messages
16,210
MBTI Type
INTJ
Enneagram
8w9
According to Ballotpedia, there are elections for 8,750 school board seats in 3,211 school districts across 28 states in November. This seems like a good time for people that aren't happy with the book bans, teacher firings because they read a book about Anne Frank or any of the other fashy moves by school boards in this country, to vote. School boards and local elections are literally ground zero for all this right wing bullshit.

 
Top