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Random Politics Thread

Virtual ghost

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I think the values were always kind of a fake front, which we can see by how easily they got abandoned.

We don't know that he made it less popular.

As the only in this situation who actually knows people that voted for Trump (some of whom have been committed Republicans for a long time), I just feel that this analysis of Trump "destroying" the Republican party is based on a theoretical understanding of what American conservatism before Trump was that didn't actually reflect most of the rank-and-file. Most Republicans aren't David Brooks.

I guess I find the idea that Donald Trump destroyed America an easier sell than "Donald Trump destroyed the Republican party". He didn't really do anything that wasn't what the GOP rank-and-file wanted, which is why they loved him. To me it seems like people are operating off of a different understanding of what the GOP was before Trump than me. Trump's success in the GOP isn't really as shocking if one has proper context; I find that it was ultimately the liberal-centrist pundits who got the GOP wrong by thinking that it was an organization with any kind of principles and who still expect to this day that those principles are going to re-emerge in the GOP. (it would really depend on what happens in November and whether or not there is a political benefit to adhering to some kind of principles.)

I think it's more likely that these so-called conservative principles have been dead for a long time, way before Trump, if they ever existed. I suppose one could make an argument George H.W. Bush was legitimately committed to say, balancing the budget by *gasp* raising taxes because that was the only way to do so. But that was 30 years ago at this point. His son didn't really care about such things.


As I said before the last Republican president for me was senior Bush. Therefore Trump indeed was a continuation of a bad trend. The only reason why I am willing to discuss the destruction of the party is because he pushed the bad trend evidently over the line.


However destroying the party is American style of thinking and framing regarding the issue. I think that better framing here would be that he hijacked the party.
 
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Virtual ghost

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But enough of the Trump drama. I am curious about something more concrete.


What are the odds that the industrial engine of the rust belt will start to visibly regenerate anytime soon ? I mean the world has really changed over the last 2 weeks and therefore all poles in global order will need to have industry at home. What means that US has to rebuild it's industry in order to have any long term chances to float in this new world.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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As I said before the last Republican president for me was senior Bush. Therefore Trump indeed was a continuation of a bad trend. The only reason why I am willing to discuss the destruction of the party is because he pushed the bad trend evidently over the line.


However destroying the party is American style of thinking and framing regarding the issue. I think that better framing here would be that he hijacked the party.
I prefer "hijacking" to destroying. It provides a much more accurate picture of what happened, in my opinion, and allows much more room for consideration of the possible impacts.
 

Virtual ghost

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I prefer "hijacking" to destroying. It provides a much more accurate picture of what happened, in my opinion, and allows much more room for consideration of the possible impacts.


Yes, especially if we consider that there seems to be some kind of a counter revolution within the party at this point. Plus he did it quite a bit through social media instead of official channels. What literally means he basically stole the spotlight. But in the wider picture this would never work in the case that the Democrats also didn't mess up their part of the equation. He really managed to hit the hole in the right time.
 

Red Herring

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Isabel Peralta, an icon of Spanish neonazis, tried to enter Germany on an invitation by local rightwing extremists but got turned away by German police (who had been warned by Spanish police) as she was carrying a bunch of devotional nazi objects in her suitcase including a swastika flag, a copy of Mein Kampf and some other nazi stuff. That shit is illegal over here. How stupid can you be?
 

Siúil a Rúin

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I've been wondering for a while...

There is a whole lot of comments underneath internationally read English-language media like The Economist or The Guardian from young men from "non-Western" countries, mainly Africa, especially Nigeria, that are almost exclusively viciously anti-Western and Pro-Russian. Now, I get how they'd be anti-Western (what with a long history of colonialism, exploitation, racism, etc) but is that hatred for anything Western so big they cheer for a (also white) dictator wageing a war of invasion?

I am a bit perplexed. Are these folks for real, is the disconnect between different spheres so large or is this the infamous troll army at work?
Is it possible to verify they are actually from Nigeria? What strikes me is the memory of the tidal wave of internet money scams that were always supposedly from Nigeria. There is some sort of hyper-cyber-scam situation that claimed to be related to that region. Maybe it was only a handful of people who actually did live there? Maybe there is a scam business that was hired to run money scams and now they are being paid for a political scam? I end up wondering if it's the same guy that asked me to send my bank account numbers so he could temporarily transfer half a million into my account to protect his royal estate and so forth.

Do others remember the meme?
 

Virtual ghost

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In ALL the polls Biden is about 10-18 points under water.
Not really the news but this isn't changing as the time is going by. He is simply stuck with what he has.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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As I said before the last Republican president for me was senior Bush. Therefore Trump indeed was a continuation of a bad trend. The only reason why I am willing to discuss the destruction of the party is because he pushed the bad trend evidently over the line.


However destroying the party is American style of thinking and framing regarding the issue. I think that better framing here would be that he hijacked the party.
I think it's largely the same party as it was during the Bush I years, although I would agree Bush I is one of the last of the old breed and it was apparent he wasn't super comfortable with the new style of republicans emerging at the time.

Perhaps this is nuanced and less apparent to outsiders, so that might explain the perception other nationalities might have of our current Republican Party being anything different than it's been since the 70s. No, they've just gotten more bold and less subtle in their party branding, dogwhistles, and jingoism. Same party, it's just adapted to the internet age.
 

Julius_Van_Der_Beak

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I think it's largely the same party as it was during the Bush I years, although I would agree Bush I is one of the last of the old breed and it was apparent he wasn't super comfortable with the new style of republicans emerging at the time.

Perhaps this is nuanced and less apparent to outsiders, so that might explain the perception other nationalities might have of our current Republican Party being anything different than it's been since the 70s. No, they've just gotten more bold and less subtle in their party branding, dogwhistles, and jingoism. Same party, it's just adapted to the internet age.
Well, it's also been a popular media narrative. If they're consuming any American media to learn what's going on, they might have picked it up there.

The idea that Trump was "destroying the Republican party" was everywhere in 2015. I wasn't really keeping up too much with a news but I assume it has a source in something, maybe a bunch of people, said. It was bad enough that it was wrong then (and that attitude is probably largely responsible for Democratic complacency is 2016, which is another reason to take issue with it) but I'm surprised people are still going with an analysis of the situation that I consider to be fairly inaccurate, and incoherent at best.
 
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Z Buck McFate

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^But he kinda did. It's no longer about policy or conservative values. It revolves around the absolute worship of one man. He didn't do it alone, but it now revolves around him and whether he gives the action/words of anyone else in the party a thumbs up or thumbs down. Like Caligula.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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A leadership/identity/branding crisis is periodic for political parties. It’s just been so long since we’ve seen one unfold for the GOP (whereas they are more frequent in the Democratic camp). Trump will fade away, his base will eventually move along to the next shiny thing in the form of a DeSantis or something else. The Caligula here is Trump’s base. He won’t do anything to upset that base. He’s backtracked multiple times to appease them in the past.

the boldest GOP candidates will not try to appease Trump, they will try to appease the base he awakened by trying to out-Trump Trump. Hence you have guys like DeSantis now speaking of regretting supporting Trump on certain measures where they feel he didn’t go extreme enough. Those bold enough are already trying to cast themselves as “the real deal” or willing to go further
 
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Virtual ghost

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Well, it's also been a popular media narrative. If they're consuming any American media to learn what's going on, they might have picked it up there.

The idea that Trump was "destroying the Republican party" was everywhere in 2015. I wasn't really keeping up too much with a news but I assume it has a source in something, maybe a bunch of people, said. It was bad enough that it was wrong then (and that attitude is probably largely responsible for Democratic complacency is 2016, which is another reason to take issue with it) but I'm surprised people are still going with an analysis of the situation that I consider to be fairly inaccurate, and incoherent at best.

Ok, but you must also calculate in the international factors. In which the party has lost a great deal of influence on the larger scale. Since now even many conservative parties in other countries are openly more for the democrats. The idea that the party politics is just limited to the US is a very flawed one in the age of internet. Maybe it was just image that got destroyed but that also counts, especially in politics.
 

Doctor Cringelord

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For comparison, Dems’ last version of a great rebranding and shakeup was the rise of Obama. Unfortunately they have yet to escape that long shadow and emerge with effective branding and/or leadership for the new decade
 

Virtual ghost

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^But he kinda did. It's no longer about policy or conservative values. It revolves around the absolute worship of one man. He didn't do it alone, but it now revolves around him and whether he gives the action/words of anyone else in the party a thumbs up or thumbs down. Like Caligula.


Yes, it got to that point. But step by step the party seems to be waking up to all the damage it was done to the agenda. Therefore now they just need to find a decent replacement and the base will shift piece by piece. With the current level of mess in the economy "It was stolen" just isn't a top argument.
 

Virtual ghost

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I think it's largely the same party as it was during the Bush I years, although I would agree Bush I is one of the last of the old breed and it was apparent he wasn't super comfortable with the new style of republicans emerging at the time.

Perhaps this is nuanced and less apparent to outsiders, so that might explain the perception other nationalities might have of our current Republican Party being anything different than it's been since the 70s. No, they've just gotten more bold and less subtle in their party branding, dogwhistles, and jingoism. Same party, it's just adapted to the internet age.


I disagree since the party has changed and to you that may not be obvious because one of the largest changes was how it involves the rest of the world. The party started to push anti NATO stuff and that has huge implications (what can be seen clearly due to recent events). They also started to spread anti-vax stuff openly around the world. Plus with Jan 6 riots they really opened the Pandora's box for the whole world to see. They started to leave agencies of UN. They are now also more active in blocking various global initiatives in the terms of environment and development. Etc Etc. I am sorry but the party has indeed changed by a decent extend. The change perhaps isn't permanent or complete regarding all members/voters but it is there. How the party relates to the world has objectively changed.



Well, it's also been a popular media narrative. If they're consuming any American media to learn what's going on, they might have picked it up there.


While this line from Julius is pretty US minded and here I will expand on my last post. Since complex argument can be made.

Today there should be something like 7600 million people living outside of USA. Therefore almost all of these people have their own local media houses which they follow (and they report live from USA with their own journalists). Therefore people outside of US don't have to watch US media to get served something that is Anti-trump. Those media don't even have to parrot US media since they can just explain how the guy negatively effects your life even if you live far away. From climate change, flirting with your regional dictators, toying with democracy in one of the most important democracies in the world, his anti-vax stuff that are spreading across the internet and which can kill your family members or friends ... etc. There is no need to parrot US media since there is more than enough ammo just if you observe from your local perspective. You open left wing news, centrist news, right wing news and you get to see anti-trump stuff on regular basis. What in the end harms the US and the party. Especially since today you can just ask people In US what the hell is going in US and through that you effect political landscape. Not to mention buying of American goods, the guy is natural anti-commercial for many .



Plus there is open question of why would that many foreign people even watch US media all that much. Since in them socialized medicine is rated as a radical idea that will never work. Therefore if you have socialized/affordable medicine your whole life then every normal person would start to ask themselves "What the hell I am watching ?". Especially if you are from one of those developed countries where already your grand, grand mother got to experience the system, which it is still working. I mean this is just an obvious example but it is possible to make this case that really questions the content in various spheres. This is exactly why there is discomfort that US will fall out of the loop with rest of the developed world. Democrats aren't great but modern Republicans evidently are working towards that outcome. Watching US media usually only makes sense in a way that you want to see what is being served to the people there.



So now the bottom line:
There is plenty of anti-trump sentiment outside of USA even in democratic nations since people there are convinced that he will mess up completely American democracy and various vital social systems. What means that their countries will have to let US go. However if that happens it will be a challenge to control China and it's growth since China already has a network and satellites across the globe. Therefore messing up of the USA simply opens them many doors. Dysfunctional or self focused USA is simply something that is evidently helping China a lot in spreading across the world. In US all of these policies can perhaps pass as average conservatism but the real question is how much of it can help China (through limiting development/education and general dysfunction). What in the end means he is harming the country and the party, how many voters he got isn't a real measure. Since through history many have followed the strongman but the problem with that didn't fully become obvious before it was too late. Therefore it is possible to get into anti-Trumpism without even paying much attention to US sources on the issue. Since here there is a certain toying with the foundations of the democratic world order which can be seen and felt from far away. However you don't need US media to understand that. That can be explained by the thousands of media houses that operate outside of USA.
 

Virtual ghost

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However to be honest now it isn't really time for partisanship. We have a real war on our hands that the west as a whole must win. Therefore I am glad that in that regard there is a certain political ceasefire in the first world. Since once Russia suffers complete moral and practical defeat and China looses good chunk of it's back up it will be much easier to sort out partisan stuff. Since there will be much more space for maneuvering and coexisting. The miscalculation in Ukraine is simply historic opportunity to fix world order related issues. Which are in the foundation of everything political on the planet.
 

Z Buck McFate

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Yes, it got to that point. But step by step the party seems to be waking up to all the damage it was done to the agenda. Therefore now they just need to find a decent replacement and the base will shift piece by piece. With the current level of mess in the economy "It was stolen" just isn't a top argument.
I'm not feeling this optimistic. Even if the majority of true conservatives labeled "RINO" (which invariably happens when they refuse to kneel and kiss their orange ape king's ring) vote Democrat for the sake of preserving democracy itself, I'm not sure I see that bringing decency back to the Republican party. I have no idea how this is going to change the two party system - if we can manage to start ranked voting to enable more parties, or if we get stuck with a Democratic party that mixes liberal and conservatives-with-integrity (the way Jeff Goldbloom mixed with a fly, but still exponentially better than an authoritarian Trump knock-off). But it seems like Trump will only be knocked off his throne by someone who can out-Trump him, not by someone decent. Not by people who view hyperconfident bullying as strength, integrity as weakness, and who perceive being woefully uneducated as some kind of virtue.
 
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