Is it a personal offense for someone to question your type?

[Frosty]

I only did it because...

I’d like to thank [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] for never giving up on me and repeatedly explaining why I was a 7

Id like to thank you too for still trying to type me even though Im very difficult.

Or at least... Ive been told.

*wink face emoji guy:

 

[Starry]

Id like to thank you too for still trying to type me even though Im very difficult.

Or at least... Ive been told.

*wink face emoji guy:

People that are difficult to type are fascinating I love it!

 

[senza tema]

I personally think it's unwise to get offended at being retyped by someone else, particularly when that typing is offered in good faith and backed up with some sort of explanation. I'm not going to discuss the cases where people over-identify with type to bolster an insecure sense of self and get irrationally angry at having that assaulted, since typology can't help someone in that position and retyping them is probably straight up harmful. I think it's far more common that people get annoyed because a.) they don't feel heard and b.) because they feel like they're being marginalized or shut out of a group.

I sympathize with both those states of mind but since typing in good faith is not an act of offense, I think it's a good idea for people to manage their reactions when their type is questioned. First, disagreement is not necessarily a sign that you're not being heard. A person might hear you and still think there are good reasons for why they chose to question your type. As someone said earlier, typology isn't about getting every single detail about your personality right ... it's a rough and ready system. So people are going to include some information and jettison other information as irrelevant and different people prioritize information differently. So ... yeah.

As for the second, I don't even know if this needs to be said but you don't need type in order to identify the people you identify with.

If you want to contribute your personal experiences to the broader knowledge base of how people think about your type, I don't think it's unreasonable for people to question whether or not it's representative. It doesn't mean they're invalidating your experiences. It means they're verifying whether or not it has exemplary value.

 

[senza tema]

Battling with preconceived notions and not feeling heard really is very annoying though.

 

[Avocado]

The ingredients needed to whip up some counterphobia? That may be due to the fact I didn’t explain it very well at all. That’s from Tom Condon... he’s a highly regarded enneagram theorist...but he’s also counterphobic (INTJ 6w5cp) and has some good work on that aspect alone.

I’ll need to look at Tom Condon’s work sometime. As for now, I’m just taking a short break from work. Maybe this weekend.

 

[Starry]

Well if doing the nice approach in a place where opinions were asked for and it resulted in gossip & ridicule, then I'd say "damage" applies. (I'm on my phone, so the tl;dr version will have to do. In the meantime, please enjoy this delightful footage of a panda eating bamboo.)

And yeah, I still 'see' more introverted perceiving in you than introverted judging, but that can wait. I only brought it up as an example of consistently seeing someone as a different type without feeling a need to convince? Anyway, please enjoy the panda footage when you have a moment. I've been watching it all day.

I love how you do that...insert videos at the perfect time.

And thank you for saying what you did because it helped me. I would attribute it to Positive Outlook...you might attribute it to Fe that you may or may not see in me...

but I hate being the kind of person that’s constantly looking past the wrongs done to me.. Wrongs done to others? Hell, I see those before they even happen and will not stop until things have been righted. But wrongs done to me...I can’t seem to do for me what I can do for others until I’m pushed too far and push back. Which just makes me look like the problem. <-Which is fine I’m a big girl that just hasn’t found a way to address this aspect of who I am yet. But I worry about others like me. I think it’s important to always remember that looks are deceiving...especially in these kinds of things.

I just have this sense that things will always fall to the typer which is why I won’t do it anymore. If someone is offended/hurt...the other person had to have done something wrong. If someone is gossiping...the person they’re gossiping about had to have done something gossip worthy and so forth... and that’s a bigass no.

There have been a few members over the years I’ve offered my opinion to unsolicited. And not lightly either but very, very gingerly if I’m using gingerly correctly I am now second guessing that... knowing the member wouldn’t be thrilled at first but would get it later which fortunately happened.

But for the most part I’ve just done it in threads because I care about people and was likewise stupid enough to believe that people wanted to be accurately typed and were seeking people’s assistance.

I now understand that there’s such a thing as people that just want their images upheld. The whole purpose of the thread is for people to tell them they are exactly what they think they are or what they are attempting to spin. And it’s here where people like me are going to get themselves in trouble. They will give their honest opinion and subsequently be easy to make guilty for what feels to the image type like an offense. Don’t do it.

But if you are an image type...and have an awareness of it...(many of the same people that get so offended by being typed start a high number of type me threads because of its alternative purpose)...if there are right and wrong answers have the decency of being honest about it. Just say...I’m trying to decide if I’m more like a XXXX or a YYYY.

Anyway I really needed this post and I do use Ni at a great amount. It usually goes Ne>Ni>Fi

 

[Starry]

i am not offended, but being called e2 annoys me...

Were you just joking?

I’m asking because I’m starting to think that there’s a big chunk of the enneagram that people don’t understand anymore... or like people that understood it have gone and now since typology is just about making people feel good about themselves (okay now I’m kidding)

 

[Obfuscate]

Why does it annoy you? You don't seem like the sort of person who would be annoyed by having your self-typing questioned.

Were you just joking?

I’m asking because I’m starting to think that there’s a big chunk of the enneagram that people don’t understand anymore... or like people that understood it have gone and now since typology is just about making people feel good about themselves (okay now I’m kidding)

i wasn't kidding, though i am sometimes sarcastic when i post here....

it isn't questioning my type that annoys me, it is that specific conclusion... i've had that one (e2) reached a few times, and while i think i likely had e2 in my tritype in the distant past, i guess i feel really distanced from that time... everything to do with it was tossed out and remodeled while i was in my teens... maybe i don't like thinking about the sort of person i could have been, or the events that forced me to change? maybe i resent portions of myself that weren't purged as efficiently as i thought? i don't know exactly what my issue with having that label is, but i do know that it annoys me a bit when i hear it...

 

[Starry]

i wasn't kidding, though i am sometimes sarcastic when i post here....

it isn't questioning my type that annoys me, it is that specific conclusion... i've had that one (e2) reached a few times, and while i think i likely had e2 in my tritype in the distant past, i guess i feel really distanced from that time... everything to do with it was tossed out and remodeled while i was in my teens... maybe i don't like thinking about the sort of person i could have been, or the events that forced me to change? maybe i resent portions of myself that weren't purged as efficiently as i thought? i don't know exactly what my issue with having that label is, but i do know that it annoys me a bit when i hear it...

Yah you’ve cracked me up more than a few times so I thought I’d double check haha.

I really appreciate this response- thank you. I’m still processing but there’s no doubt this helps me understand the discomfort that people experience and hope you don’t mind if I toss out some initial thoughts in response.


One of the things I’ve been sharing in this thread is my frustration over having been assigned this reputation of being like the “type police” or whatever. <-Which I concede is very easy to stick to me if you don’t like what I have to say. I’m ADD...I don’t fill my posts with the proper frills...I don’t understand the secret social code language which automatically makes me something bad.

I do think I’ve got a good grasp of the enneagram though. Why? I’ve put in the time only to discover how simple lt really is. It’s like Chemistry. I don’t know about you but I sat in Chemistry for weeks thinking wtf? I was honestly about to give up and drop out but a friend told me to stick it out. She said “Chemistry is one of those things that won’t make sense and then *poof*” It’s very, very simple.
And simple = Starry can handle it!

A couple of things...the enneagram has nothing to do with personality. It’s only core fears or what they called long ago “deadly thoughts”...and coping strategies. What looks like descriptions of personality are actually descriptions of the coping strategies to aid in identification because we keep the core fear hidden from ourselves. It’s like...if you want to know who’s afraid of heights you may look towards people that avoid climbing ladders <-but that’s not going to catch everyone as some people that are afraid of heights may become tightrope walkers to keep that fear from them and holy shit I just completely lost my train of thought...what I was going to say to you. omg

Okay... the enneagram is all about discomfort. People try to fit themselves into the personality they like but that’s not how it works. The chances it’s going to be the point you can’t stand or just know you’re not is high. Still I see no 2 in you and suspect you might be misunderstanding. It would be good for you to learn what that part is.

Social message to make me seem nice: this is merely my opinion though (seriously)


Whoops I should say that I don’t think you used to be a 2 either imo. Or on the fast track to becoming a 2. And I’m telling you this because I know you won’t get offended by it.

 

[Z Buck McFate]

I love how you do that...insert videos at the perfect time.

And thank you for saying what you did because it helped me. I would attribute it to Positive Outlook...you might attribute it to Fe that you may or may not see in me...

I don't see Fe (nor do I especially see a positive outlook though, lol). I don't even know what it means to see Fe in someone, and past forum conversations (and really disgusting manipulative bullshit 'insight' about Fe ) have created such an aversion in me to even think about it that I don't put much effort into it. But I kinda explained here what the difference between Fi and people-oriented Pi looks like to me. I think the introverted function (whether dominant or auxiliary) kinda dictates priorities about what to focus on, and as such gets triggered or hooked or 'stuck' (as much as I dislike the associations to the word "trigger", I can't think of a more fitting term at the moment) by different sorts of stimuli. I don't really want to start a derail here though.

 

[Tilt]

It's interesting the conclusions that people draw. Some people will say that I am introverted and very easy-going (e9). I actually take it as a HUGE compliment because that means that my efforts to balance out as an an individual have paid off.

For me personally, I settled on Je dom (Fe) because of my innate draw to CONTROL my environment and my overall impatience with how things and people operate. I have an insatiable desire to know why and FIX things so my mind is very quick to put things/people into categories and use them as heuristics to navigate my world. My world is all about defining and refining my understanding of the people around me. It makes me notably critical/judgmental but also quite understanding and tolerant.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] I seem to be one of those Fe people that gets hung up on the individualism. Ha the thing is my mind doesn't like to rest until I explore every last interpretation of someone's character/behavior before I make a definitive, absolute judgment call. For me, each person has multiple conflicting nuances that define them.

 

[Qlip]

My whole psyche is built on the fact that I'm not going to ask you who I am, nor walk within a 1000 yards of courting your agreement or approval. There was a time, I'm sure, where it intensely mattered. When I was very young and needed to be seen, and I'm quite sure that drive disabled me and I left it behind. It makes sense to me that everybody has a different set of experiences and desires in this regard. Identity is a powerful multifaceted thing.

 

[Yuurei]

My whole psyche is built on the fact that I'm not going to ask you who I am, nor walk within a 1000 yards of courting your agreement or approval. There was a time, I'm sure, where it intensely mattered. When I was very young and needed to be seen, and I'm quite sure that drive disabled me and I left it behind. It makes sense to me that everybody has a different set of experiences and desires in this regard. Identity is a powerful multifaceted thing.

Yep.
It has never occured to me to care if some random strangers -who may or not exist on the other side of a screen- question who I am.

Not even in a smug ir malicious way. To everyone else here I to am nothing more than possibly existing entity. I expect that thier perception of me may not be entirely accurate. I take no offense.

 

[Starry]

Battling with preconceived notions and not feeling heard really is very annoying though.

I’m primarily quoting you because I love what you said about not simply identifying with your own type. Like, how do I say this... As someone that spends a great deal of time each day trying to be understood...trying to figure out how to take all that’s going in my head and package it in a way that the general population can get a vague impression of some point I’m trying to make... the NFPs here have given me the gift of not having to travel those same light years each time I’ve got something to say. And it’s like heaven really...to get to experience what I imagine normal people feel like most of the time (it’s amazing how this will still catch me off guard like “oh what? you understood that?” There have been times I’ve continued to try and explain and the other NFP has to assure me that they have already picked up what I had envisioned running a marathon to put down.). NFPs are not group people though. Not that we don’t like a good get together...don’t get me wrong. Or that we don’t love everyone and everything because we do...from afar haha. Other people compell us to remain connected and I identify with all the types. <-But just saying that is forced and funky to me. These measures are so superficial of course you identify with everyone

Anyway, I don’t know what it’s like to be heard enough to feel entitled to it...or enough to have the luxury of being offended when it doesn’t occur. I mean, that sounds heavenly too...to be so confident in your own ability to communicate that not being heard is quite clearly the other person’s fault (not saying you’re saying that but others clearly put the blame in the others court). But you don’t really need to be heard to be decently typed by another person. Like, with the enneagram everything’s hidden from the person while they are still entranced. It’s actually better not to hear the person out to be frank.

People also don’t totally understand what’s needed. Like Crystal can’t be ENFP because she’s religious <-like no. You don’t need to know specific info really. Just look to how the person is using their brain for MBTI

 

[Starry]

It's interesting the conclusions that people draw. Some people will say that I am introverted and very easy-going (e9). I actually take it as a HUGE compliment because that means that my efforts to balance out as an an individual have paid off.

For me personally, I settled on Je dom (Fe) because of my innate draw to CONTROL my environment and my overall impatience with how things and people operate. I have an insatiable desire to know why and FIX things so my mind is very quick to put things/people into categories and use them as heuristics to navigate my world. My world is all about defining and refining my understanding of the people around me. It makes me notably critical/judgmental but also quite understanding and tolerant.

[MENTION=10082]Starry[/MENTION] I seem to be one of those Fe people that gets hung up on the individualism. Ha the thing is my mind doesn't like to rest until I explore every last interpretation of someone's character/behavior before I make a definitive, absolute judgment call. For me, each person has multiple conflicting nuances that define them.

Thank you so much for this! I hope you don’t mind me asking this but how troubling is it for you when people don’t see you in the same way as you see yourself?

Like for me...as long as people have a basic understanding of the social facts...I actually want them to think I’m as great or as pathetic as they do. All is interesting to me and ok. I mean, what I mean by “social facts”...I’ve mentioned this in this thread...some people...actually it seems more and more like this here...are strictly behavior/symbol based in their judgments. So if you are nice and courteous that automatically puts the person into a “good, honest” category and if you’re like me...that signals a bad person. I don’t understand this at all because I often find the reverse to be true. I’m often more fearful of super nice and polite people for how many times I see that same niceness being used as a vehicle for manipulation...stuff like that. I do have a bit of an over attachment to people knowing that I’m going to give it to you straight...that I will always be as truthful as I can <-and I think it’s merely for how hard it is to live this way. Like I want the credit for this...for how often the truth puts you into the “obviously bad” category I at least want that credit. But after that people can think whatever they want...so shit people are free to type me however.

How is this for you?

 

[Tilt]

Thank you so much for this! I hope you don’t mind me asking this but how troubling is it for you when people don’t see you in the same way as you see yourself?

Like for me...as long as people have a basic understanding of the social facts...I actually want them to think I’m as great or as pathetic as they do. All is interesting to me and ok. I mean, what I mean by “social facts”...I’ve mentioned this in this thread...some people...actually it seems more and more like this here...are strictly behavior/symbol based in their judgments. So if you are nice and courteous that automatically puts the person into a “good, honest” category and if you’re like me...that signals a bad person. I don’t understand this at all because I often find the reverse to be true. I’m often more fearful of super nice and polite people for how many times I see that same niceness being used as a vehicle for manipulation...stuff like that. I do have a bit of an over attachment to people knowing that I’m going to give it to you straight...that I will always be as truthful as I can <-and I think it’s merely for how hard it is to live this way. Like I want the credit for this...for how often the truth puts you into the “obviously bad” category I at least want that credit. But after that people can think whatever they want...so shit people are free to type me however.

How is this for you?

I need people to understand my thought process/rationale before I consider their assessment of me . If they don't understand my perspective, then I tend to be disturbed by discrepancies in my perception vs. theirs. But on the other hand, sometimes that disconnect is comforting to me because then they really have nothing on me.

I tend not to categorize people in terms of good and bad. "Do they bring value to my life and vice versa?" "Do they live up to their OWN values and morals?" "Are their morals and values compatible for what I want out of my life?"

 

[the state i am in]

I only did it because...

I’d like to thank [MENTION=6275]the state i am in[/MENTION] for never giving up on me and repeatedly explaining why I was a 7...it really is transformative

permission for so/sp discussion, starry?

at least can we both agree that i'm basically the jane goodall of 7w6 enps?




on another note, i knew someone through a friend who tried to retype me as an intp. i took it as a compliment, and understanding the e5 overlap, i was glad to see how much progress i've made with Ti. i too could sense how much more focused my questions were and how much more controlled i was in examining and gathering useful information.

with type, it's a weird game--on the one hand, he didn't know my progression, didn't see all these Ni patterns in my way of doing things or shortcomings or the way it all fit together. and on the other hand, he doesn't have the same type system in his mind as i do.

that's the crux--the type systems really are so different. at this point, i'm more than impressed when it feels like we can get on the same page at all. i think my philosophy is a bit backward for most people, when we can only derive archetypes by comparing actual people. the descriptions are just worse representations than the iterative driven algorithm that comes out of it. i can't even really build the context without letting real comparison-contrast do the work to draw out meaningful generalizations, to help push me to try to hold the real thing again. because there's nothing essential to experience. a type isn't a a product we can directly experience. we can only encounter a person. i can draw out a few things, but talking about it is like talking about wine, it's this post hoc reasoning after the intuition has already happened, and it's only meaningful as it is counterposed with other fresh input to work with. it's like asking the sorting hat to explain itself, and detail what types of information are really admissable to it. the words are always far removed from the actual energy and consciousness of it.

the one thing we all can do is, with the experiences and methods of sorting people, as good as our typing has been, start with different lead-ins, questions, and attempts to whole person listen and attend to and empathize with. one of my 7w6 entp friends was trying to explain it to me this way the other day, that our job is to hold the way we relate and the way people are different from us both together. that doing so is a kind of approximation of the best side of the platinum rule. that it reminds us to allow them to be themselves, appreciate their path, and also connect on a human level with the process of figuring out how to live well as ourselves.

 

[Starry]

permission for so/sp discussion, starry?

at least can we both agree that i'm basically the jane goodall of 7w6 enps?




on another note, i knew someone through a friend who tried to retype me as an intp. i took it as a compliment, and understanding the e5 overlap, i was glad to see how much progress i've made with Ti. i too could sense how much more focused my questions were and how much more controlled i was in examining and gathering useful information.

with type, it's a weird game--on the one hand, he didn't know my progression, didn't see all these Ni patterns in my way of doing things or shortcomings or the way it all fit together. and on the other hand, he doesn't have the same type system in his mind as i do.

that's the crux--the type systems really are so different. at this point, i'm more than impressed when it feels like we can get on the same page at all. i think my philosophy is a bit backward for most people, when we can only derive archetypes by comparing actual people. the descriptions are just worse representations than the iterative driven algorithm that comes out of it. i can't even really build the context without letting real comparison-contrast do the work to draw out meaningful generalizations, to help push me to try to hold the real thing again. because there's nothing essential to experience. a type isn't a a product we can directly experience. we can only encounter a person. i can draw out a few things, but talking about it is like talking about wine, it's this post hoc reasoning after the intuition has already happened, and it's only meaningful as it is counterposed with other fresh input to work with. it's like asking the sorting hat to explain itself, and detail what types of information are really admissable to it. the words are always far removed from the actual energy and consciousness of it.

the one thing we all can do is, with the experiences and methods of sorting people, as good as our typing has been, start with different lead-ins, questions, and attempts to whole person listen and attend to and empathize with. one of my 7w6 entp friends was trying to explain it to me this way the other day, that our job is to hold the way we relate and the way people are different from us both together. that doing so is a kind of approximation of the best side of the platinum rule. that it reminds us to allow them to be themselves, appreciate their path, and also connect on a human level with the process of figuring out how to live well as ourselves.

It’s strange. I have a very real, rational understanding that e5 will take me a great distance on the path to my best self. And yet from where I sit at 7 it often looks and feels more like a “highway to hell”. Until I read something like this.

What in the world? *note to self: formally mention state more often*

I wish I didn’t use all the time I had basking in the awesomeness of seeing you again and the healing properties of your wisdom to have time for a decent response. But you are ultimately why I am here.

I’m not exaggerating when I say that if it wasn’t for you just very straightforwardly challenging my understanding and guiding me towards 7...I’d still be lost somewhere I’m glad I’m not. I can’t claim self-improvement necessarily. I’m still doing everything I can to avoid growing up. But I know myself. I am awake. And I’m awake because you cared enough to stand by me no matter how many times I hit snooze.

^The freedom to do this is being threatened and that scares me for others. Not officially...but socially...which perhaps due to being so/sp...is far worse in my opinion. It sucks that members are getting burned for wanting to help. But the fact this now happens in type me threads...it’s shitting down the whole process which is a tragedy to me but whatever I gotta go and will return.

So good to see you

 

[the state i am in]

It’s strange. I have a very real, rational understanding that e5 will take me a great distance on the path to my best self. And yet from where I sit at 7 it often looks and feels more like a “highway to hell”. Until I read something like this.

What in the world? *note to self: formally mention state more often*

I wish I didn’t use all the time I had basking in the awesomeness of seeing you again and the healing properties of your wisdom to have time for a decent response. But you are ultimately why I am here.

I’m not exaggerating when I say that if it wasn’t for you just very straightforwardly challenging my understanding and guiding me towards 7...I’d still be lost somewhere I’m glad I’m not. I can’t claim self-improvement necessarily. I’m still doing everything I can to avoid growing up. But I know myself. I am awake. And I’m awake because you cared enough to stand by me no matter how many times I hit snooze.

I'm glad we are part of something that helps us learn how to be ourselves better. So many ways in which we need help seeing ourselves, and so many ways in which understanding how our needs and ways of being ourselves are different from others requires being confronted with those differences. Someone recently quoted something to me from a speaker who talked about others as mirrors and windows. I tend to have the same ideas. I think we also need to help not only holding a sense of ourselves in some ways but also holding the way in which we fit together.

The Holy Mountain is a pretty fun movie that explores the enneagram in practice in this light.

^The freedom to do this is being threatened and that scares me for others. Not officially...but socially...which perhaps due to being so/sp...is far worse in my opinion. It sucks that members are getting burned for wanting to help. But the fact this now happens in type me threads...it’s shitting down the whole process which is a tragedy to me but whatever I gotta go and will return.

So good to see you

Conflict is awkward. There's also a weird public thing that can amplify reactions. I liken it to raising your hand to say something in class or being given a mic at a conference or wedding. The feeling of uncertainty in terms of how you will be perceived by so many people that you can't really be aware of just ignites this energy within you, and your heart pounds, and you feel a tightness everywhere. I think it's easy to feel like that when posting something public on the internet that magnifies the nature of conflict. So many people could have a variety of reactions on top of whatever conflict already exists there. So many ways to be judged.

(With this said, the tendency to shame oneself instead of fully embracing the unpleasantness and sense of riskiness of putting something out there isn't healthy or constructive either, and it often way overestimates the importance of the initial thing and way underestimates the value of learning and taking responsibility for your side of whatever comes up for others).

Apart from that, I think trying to be helpful generally feels right. I think owning the way in which having conflicting ideas or feeling frustrated by disagreement affects us and motivates us to post in the first place is important too. It's also a lot different if you're talking with someone you have some baseline for trust and who you feel also in some meaningful way SEES you. Appreciating the learning journey of this forum, I think, is positive for me to give myself some permission to be interested in engaging on both a human level and also a more research oriented one. I used to go more wildly back and forth turning myself into a monster (in my own mind) when I'd compare some of my motives with those of some of the infps, who seemed more pure in some way because the way they empathized first (when at their best), which seemed most humane. Now I'm more steady in appreciating that on its own terms while also appreciating the search for clarity and useful mental models that helps us understand emotions and explore the implications of certain patterns of reaction too. There's no need for an existential either/or. Letting the situation be the situation and the needs present in it be what they are instead of getting blown into absolutism has worked better. Humility helps make everything less about us too, and if we don't shame and need some counterforce to keep us from deflating, humility is a lot easier.

That I've been (and continue to be) in a relationship with an enfp for nearly the last 3 years highlights to me the value of both sides. My experience shows both can offer useful ways in to resolving conflict, taking the lead in guiding some kind of better thing, and living well with others more generally.

In another view, appreciating and welcoming some T help has been really good in helping correct things. The end goal of emotional well-being is openness that balances buoyancy and gravity and enables us to be in alignment with the rules of reality, life, selfhood, and relationship. Responsibility comes from being willing to choose the path and not just the product, which requires earning control over yourself and expanding your ability to make meaningful choices.

tldr Not taking things personally is really helpful when growth is the goal.

 

[misfortuneteller]

I have had people question my 9 typing constantly. They can't fathom the concept of a 9 with any form of conviction or a 9 that they might be intimidated by. I'm way too sensitive for hardly anyone to question my INFP typing, however. INFPs are usually the ones that question my type and it's usually because they simply don't like me.