Astrology, MBTI, enneagram correlation

[tinkerbell]

Astrology isn't causal guys, it gives an understanding of resources available to people not outcome, hence people may have the agression to be an axe murderer, but choose to use that agression to promote world peace... ultimately all astrology can say is you have the agression as an oporuntunity in the first place.

As for evidence MBTI ought to be provable, it's only a segmentation albeit preference reporting, it can be impeirically tests for significant differences but has not.

test of Astrology can only be done at a rather crude level because, like psycology (which is basically human and their behaviour at complex) are too diverse, it would be easier to test astrological princiaps like humours against behaviour and measure the retrofit.

Ie % spent on communications (net, mobile, landline) and degree of coleric (with the eception of b2b dialogues - which would be melancolic)... that is a stutably big behaviour.

All in all guys astrology is NOT causal - which is a misunderstanding... guys we are off topic, this was suppose to collate information for the OP not yet another banter about validity...

 

[tinkerbell]

And you don't think any of this might be due to...I don't know, random chance?

If you can show this sort of similarity over any kind of significant sample of "astral twins", maybe the scientific community will start taking you seriously.

the odds of random change would be massively against this... it would be one hell of a long shot

Yea..........but I'm not trying to prove this stuff, I don't need to.

I know I think, but the so called scientific community can't proved thoughts. They can not seperate strands of thoguth or measure them... they suspect thinking happens in the rban because they can see chemical reactions, but they can't prove thought..... I'm assuming you don't beleive you think because there is no scientific evidence of thinking....

I am of course pulling your leg, science is a limiting factor and ought to be treated with some skepticism, as a limitation not a constraint.

100 years ago deaf kids were considered dumb, because we had no way to communicate with them. 100 years ago we didn't have viruses of hormones becuase the microscopes were not powerful enough, does that mean they don't exsists? Be careful of what you don't belive in because of lack of impirical evidence.

There is a great thread on auras here, that report some impirical evidence that they exists and are pretty revolutionary in tersm fo healing opportunitites... personally I choose to belive, I expect you to be skeptical becuase you seem to see a tape measure as the deciding factor.

One of the sub plots of Harry Potter was the way JK dealt with Hermioney V's Luna Lovegood.... Hermioney - is a die hard text book learner, if there is no evidence she doesn't beleive. Luna beleives in the extraordinary... a die hard INTP I'd think... but the point is she beleives in things without evidience, and her superiority of perspective is absolutely clear in the final book, when she rises way above Hermioney. Jk's perspective is about structure v's unstructed thought, it is a brave sub polot because JK is quite clearly a structured thinker and yet she backs unsttructure thinking and the boundary breaker.

If you read up on thinking as a subject/topic - there is earth thinking and water... both are valued, they are just different.

OK enough migrating off subject, if you want to chew the fat - yet again on astrology, can I suggest your revive one of the dead threads of post a new one... I will chatt to you about it, but understanding repeating Evidence,. Evidence, Evidence is pretty weary, lots of thigns are unprovable because of sciences limits not beacause they dont' exsist

 

[Zarathustra]

INTJ
8w9
Libra sun, Scorpio rising, Pisces moon

I could see you finding a correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, but I doubt you'll find one with astrology, at least not with a data set the size you'll get from this post.

The problem with trying to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram -- leaving aside the question of whether astrology is actually sound -- is that the sun sign is such a small part of one's astrological birth chart. If you've ever gotten a full reading of your natal chart, it usually contains over 100 different data points, from aspects between different planetary bodies (and their midpoints), to locations of planetary bodies within houses, etc., and all of these data points are supposedly meaningful.

Thus, looking at the attempt to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram this way, seems extremely flawed.

 

[Jaguar]

INTJ
8w9
Libra sun, Scorpio rising, Pisces moon

I could see you finding a correlation between MBTI and Enneagram, but I doubt you'll find one with astrology, at least not with a data set the size you'll get from this post.

The problem with trying to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram -- leaving aside the question of whether astrology is actually sound -- is that the sun sign is such a small part of one's astrological birth chart. If you've ever gotten a full reading of your natal chart, it usually contains over 100 different data points, from aspects between different planetary bodies (and their midpoints), to locations of planetary bodies within houses, etc., and all of these data points are supposedly meaningful.

Thus, looking at the attempt to find a correlation between astrology and MBTI/Enneagram this way, seems extremely flawed.

Agreed.

Welcome to the forum, Zara.

 

[Prototype]

INFJ
Scorpio
4

To the OP:

What exactly are you trying to understand?

 

[tinkerbell]

Zarathustra

Welcome to the board, nice to have someone who knows their stuff,

Lis

 

[Venom]

I think the difference between MBTI and astrology is that MBTI doesnt necessarily claim to be metaphysical (depending on which theorist; Jung did, but other people dont).

--MBTI is a great map. It doesnt claim to be the territory. Its a self response inventory. ENFJ doesnt have to be a "real" thing with metaphysical causal essence. Its simply an idea that a lot of people all agree on, "hey i identify with ENFJ too!".

--Astrology claims to have causal powers. It claims that a time and space positioning of planets has a causal and metaphysical effect on humans. Its not just a self response inventory. Its metaphysical because its not really measurable in a postriori synthetic sense. We cant perform scientific inductive reasoning because there isn't a way to control the variables in a repeated fashion. We can't infer the existence of a naturalistic causation because the variable control would be such a nightmare (the phenomena are at the level of existence itself, so how will you control the variables?). Its not a priori analytic knowledge either, so it falls under a priori synthetic and therefore metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge is perfectly fine and logical, when it stays as metaphysical knowledge. Metaphysical knowledge can be as real as "2 + 2 = 4" when its only being "true for you". Metaphysical knowledge though isn't really transferable because its so perception dependent, and therefore its not really "provable to others".

example: The astrological system can be as true as "2 + 2 = 4" for tinkerbell, based on the metaphysical perceptions that make it "true for her". I however, can never really share her metaphysical perceptions. I can never share whatever metaphysical perception allows her to know that the Titan moon doesnt have causal effects, while the earth moon does. I can however share whatever descriptions I've mapped out to people who self-identify as ENFJ. Im not claiming my maps are causal, because the map isnt the territory (it isnt metaphysically "real").

So to sum up the issues:
--Both Astrology and "MBTI with metaphysical functions" are perfectly logical and sound, when they remain metaphysical belief systems. When both claims to be physical, and not metaphysical, then they become psudo-science (because they cant ever reach the level of induction that modern science requires).
--MBTI without metaphysical functions, can however reach a level postriori synthetic, because we can measure who self assesses themselves as identifying with "the map" of certain MBTI types (nothing metaphysical is being claimed to be real).

Astrology isn't causal guys, it gives an understanding of resources available to people not outcome, hence people may have the agression to be an axe murderer, but choose to use that agression to promote world peace... ultimately all astrology can say is you have the agression as an oporuntunity in the first place.

Its causal not in the determinist sense that I think you are defending against. I mean its causal in the sense that there is *something* about the planet locations that exerts its effect. Otherwise how would the planets exert any effect? A good example is a DNA gene. DNA doesnt genetically determine what you may do in life, but certain genes may give a higher propensity for events to occur (this is identical to your astrology point ). The DNA however still has a mechanical mechanism that clearly links its effects to the DNA code. The mechanism of transcription/translation of protein units is not deterministic, but its clearly causal.

Under astrology, there must be some sort of causal or mechanism link to the planets and our behavior, even if they don't determine the outcomes.

If the connection between the planets was not obtained by recognition of a mechanism or correlating results (there can only ever be one Janaury 10th 2001), where did all of this astrological knowledge come from? (im sincerely asking )

 

[Jaguar]

Under astrology, there must be some sort of causal or mechanism link to the planets and our behavior, even if they don't determine the outcomes.

Googling for possibilities takes minutes.

Science and astrology: the proof in astrophysics

If you want to argue his theory after reading that, go call him.

 

[lunalum]

Type: INTP

Enneagram: 5w4 (perhaps 4w5)

Sun Sign: Aries

Yep, if you take the INTP description, mix in the Aries characteristics and some of the enneagram 4 and 5 stuff, that's me (along with the secret ingredient of course....)

 

[Nonsensical]

enfp
libra
4w3

 

[ajblaise]

As far as I can see, there's not the slightest correlation so far in the thread.

Can an ISTJ crunch the numbers for me?

 

[Venom]

Googling for possibilities takes minutes.

Science and astrology: the proof in astrophysics

If you want to argue his theory after reading that, go call him.

Astronomer, astrophysicist and respected authority in the field of cosmic magnetism, Dr. Percy Seymour, argues in his most recent book, The Scientific Proof of Astrology: Tuning to the Music of the Planets, that the movement of the Sun, Moon and all the other planets interfere with the Earth's magnetic field. In doing so, the unborn offspring of expectant mothers around the world are exposed to different magnetic fields that toy with the development of their budding brains. In an earlier book, "Astrology: The Evidence of Science", Dr. Seymour put forward the theory of “magneto-astrology", which supposes that human biological clocks keep time with the planets.

Even if his theory were 100% fact, it still wouldn't be the proposed mechanism of astrology. Magnetism affecting brain development still wouldn't create a mechanistic link between other people burglarizing your house and your astral chart (something mentioned earlier in the thread).

Again, I do not support scientism. This isn't about astrology being wrong because its not science. Its more about trying to clothe metaphysics as legitimate science. I don't support psudoscience. I think people are entitled to believe (because it perfectly logical) whatever metaphysics they want as long as they admit that its metaphysics. Otherwise they are peddling psudoscience.

 

[Nyx]

INFJ... I'm not sure about enneagram... I think I'm equally 5 and 4. Gemini.

I think the 5w4 is well suited to a Gemini. I heard somewhere there was a correlation between INTPs and Geminis....


EDIT: I think this a load of WAFFLE

 

[simulatedworld]

Googling for possibilities takes minutes.

Science and astrology: the proof in astrophysics

If you want to argue his theory after reading that, go call him.

Seth Shostak, a leading American astronomer, was also scathing, describing Seymour's theory as "nonsensical". He pointed out that even though large planets like Jupiter had magnetic and gravitational fields far greater than the Earth's, they were massively diluted by distance. "Jupiter's magnetic field is about a trillion times weaker than the Earth's," he said. "You would experience a far stronger field from your lights and washing machine."

Even if his theory were 100% fact, it still wouldn't be the proposed mechanism of astrology. Magnetism affecting brain development still wouldn't create a mechanistic link between other people burglarizing your house and your astral chart (something mentioned earlier in the thread).

Thank you!

 

[Jaguar]

Seth Shostak, a leading American astronomer, was also scathing, describing Seymour's theory as "nonsensical".

Do you think you posted something I haven't already read before?
You have to be quicker on the draw than that, Sim.

 

[tinkerbell]

Under astrology, there must be some sort of causal or mechanism link to the planets and our behavior, even if they don't determine the outcomes.

If the connection between the planets was not obtained by recognition of a mechanism or correlating results (there can only ever be one Janaury 10th 2001), where did all of this astrological knowledge come from? (im sincerely asking )

Hi

I think I get your distrinction.

It's kind of like you being very strong or being very beautiful.....

Any person can learn to be strong, they can press weights - take steriods etc... but the natrualyl born strong don't need to work at it.... Hence being said to be natrually strong is a resource you have.

Beauty is probably better (again a non bueatiful person can have cosmetic surgery etc).... The natrual beauty has it already.

Astrology basicaly is a snap shot of your resoruces... it doesn't cause strongess of beauty, just gives you a mechanisim for saying this child is likely to develop these resources.

I guess when it coems to how astrology works, there may be more around the causal factors, but that is really beyond exploration and proven. I've done some pre-epoch work before now, conception charts and they have an an interesting interplay with the native.

In a conception share the moon is where the ntal charts ascendant is, and vice versa (sorry this may get too technical).... so actually fact the moment of fertilisation is important and does relate to when the person is born.... this of course theory rather than verifable.

As for where did it come from... eons ago....

Wiki says 3rd millennium BC.... long while BC.... Originally it was star gazing perdominantly to predict farming outcome... the moon was largely instrumental. As civilisation took off, the astrological interpretation of other planets grew, it's been passed down generation via word of mouth.

The first book in the UK that I'm aware of was 1346 or there about - William Lilly's Christain astrology

Historically the celestial bodies that were used:
Sun
Moon
Merucy
Venus
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn

Were the only planets... It predicted the weather focast, good times to start wars, predicted famines etc etc.....

Each planet has a meaning, which is then helped or hindered by how it relates.

Mars = agression - you could have mars in a good sign to get things done (Mars used as energy), but if Saturn (inhibitor) is making a harsh aspect it it, Saturn will hinder Mars' expression... so instead of getting things done, the native will experience lots of blocks to get things done, which can be exhausting, or create agressive outcome, or a need to develop a lot of coping mechnaisims.

Hence each planet has interpretations. It's these interpretations that make Astrology (interpretation of planetary movement), different from astrology - mapping out the movement of the stars.

Hence it's real origin was probably global use as a weather monitor in the first place, natures natrual calender in seassonal countries, and direction setter to sailors and fishermen.

From early civilisation, it has been incororated into what is now knonw as science, it was part of astronomy, it si part of the hypocratic oath I beleive - sits in the terratory of not conducting surgery when the atrological conditions are bad (basically the native would bleed out).... Only relatively recently did the sciences split... and to be honest with you they are largely the same...

Take human behaviour:
* Psycology
* Behavioural ecconomics
* Ecconometircs
* Statistics
* Operations research
* Market Research
* Social Research

Are all different but they can all look at human behaviour and suggest ways to change it..... They are not in practice all that different they just add a different perspective. All of these disciplines are not perfect, humans are complex, their behaviours highly complex...

Does this help? Ask questions as much as you like, I might run dry of answers but I'll do my best to help. I do genuinely beleive you are interested - rather than screaming unproven and not contributing much to the discussion....

 

[tinkerbell]

As far as I can see, there's not the slightest correlation so far in the thread.

Can an ISTJ crunch the numbers for me?

but that is even true to MBTI and Engramme

The issue is that these are all ways to segment people, unless they build on previous system then they will have perhaps limited alignment but not enough to be useful.

 

[tinkerbell]

BC anothr thought

Astrology isn't science or psyudo one... but it is an analytics discipline,

The anlytics is abotu combining 10 variables (the planets), in 12 signs, making any number of different aspects... so you have the factual data of Saturn Saquaring Mars, but also the interpretation of how the native may use that as a resource... as said above

Saturn suare Mars may indicate times in life where others block progress, or times when energy becomes very low, or when you loose the rag occationally because someone has held you back, or it could be physical... anemia.... all of these are possibilitites... but not all at once, a person may at one point in their life go through a few years when they are using this combination badly and they are just angry with everyone.... other times they are lively enegaged and driven to achieve.

hopefully that will clarify science through art.... it's not made up stuff, it's inerpreting data to a set criteria and then intellegently applied

 

[ajblaise]

but that is even true to MBTI and Engramme

The issue is that these are all ways to segment people, unless they build on previous system then they will have perhaps limited alignment but not enough to be useful.

Well, MBTI and Enneagram segment people based on the main aspects of personality.

Astrology uses celestial configurations billions of miles away to explain human affairs and personality, which is literally the hugest gap in logic ever. Right? You might as well be rolling a dice to assign personality characteristics.

 

[tinkerbell]

Well, MBTI and Enneagram segment people based on the main aspects of personality.

Astrology uses celestial configurations billions of miles away to explain human affairs and personality, which is literally the hugest gap in logic ever. Right? You might as well be rolling a dice to assign personality characteristics.

Actually MBTI and Enneagram segment based on peoples own understadning of themselves, not on their personalities....

IF we were to survey them and a group of their friend we would say they ahd been segmented based on their personalitites.

No astrology segments based on time palce and date of birth.. rather than self reporting.

Do you know that with market/social research you can take a childs post code and identified the overall style of their life... AKA high performing to crimial beahviours..... sad really, and thats just a post code