[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[Athenian200]

I'm not sure, Athenian, if my answers to your questions will apply to all ESTJs (they're a little broad), but they're excellent questions, and I'll try to answer them as best I can.

Of course. That's all I could have expected.

I think it really depends. I mean, everyone's a little bit of both, but I suppose whether an ESTJ would lean in one direction or another would depend on whether their family/friends/culture was sophisticated or not. I'd say that in this case, nurture is more influential than nature. (You know how we can be with peer pressure...)

That's what I would have thought, actually. I like to think that Js would tend to be more sophisticated than Ps in general, though.

Again, it depends. If their different-ness makes them difficult to deal with (e.g. if they have bad social skills, or they won't stop talking no matter what), then I might not want to be around them. I might be indifferent to them, or respond them with one word answers, or something along those lines. But if they're different in a way that I find to be harmless (e.g. wearing an outrageous costume to a social gathering when costumes weren't expected), then I may even find that different-ness to be charming, and it might draw me to them. You might get an immediate reaction like "Whoa... that's weird", but I get over that fast once it's proven to me that you're actually cool, despite/because of your weirdness.

Wow. It sounds like you're fairly open minded. I wasn't really thinking about being different in terms of having bad social skills or being rude, though. I kind of take those things for granted. My idea of "different" would be something more like... a guy wearing a purple shirt or having long hair, or a girl wearing pants instead of a dress. Or, I suppose, unusual clothing or hair styles in general? I'd never even imagined the possibility of someone wearing a costume when they weren't supposed to (at least not on purpose). Stuff like that really happens? Interesting.

But that answer really only applies in social situations.
In work situations, if the person's different-ness interferes with their ability to work and to get things done efficiently (or if I find it offensive), then I'm not okay with it. Otherwise, you know, diff'rent strokes for diff'rent folks, and so on and so on.

Well, the first one is obvious, again... one goes to work in order to work, and I can't imagine anyone being okay with someone doing something that interfered with their ability to work and get the job done.

The bolded, though... is interesting. What sort of things, aside from their work efficiency and basic social skills, could be offensive to you?

So I guess, if my answers apply to other ESTJs, we can be quite intolerant at first, but we're fairly easily convinced that different people are cool. (It's my personal belief that NFs can be WAY more closed-minded than ESTJs are, because their beliefs are so much more... personal, for lack of a better word.)

Hmm... INFPs can be, anyway. Kidding. Yes, I suppose anyone can be closed-minded.

 

[EJCC]

So you don't want to get married like [most] other girls? And you don't like to talk to other girls?

WHOA there. That was kind of a big leap, dude.
I want to get married. I enjoy talking to girls. (Not all girls do the annoying things I described... and I'm okay at handling complaining/gossip/OMG BOYS OMG (which, again, not all girls do) in small doses.
I just don't want to be like this woman:

 

[EJCC]

Wow. It sounds like you're fairly open minded. I wasn't really thinking about being different in terms of having bad social skills or being rude, though. I kind of take those things for granted. My idea of "different" would be something more like... a guy wearing a purple shirt or having long hair, or a girl wearing pants instead of a dress.

Oh, okay. This depends on the ESTJ, I think. Honestly, it depends on what the ESTJ considers to be "traditional". The idea of what's "traditional" is very subjective. I grew up in a liberal part of the country, with open-minded parents, and I went to schools with open outlooks. I've been to drag shows before, I have friends who dress up in leopard-print onesies because that's their style (she's the one who inspired the costume comment), and I went to a Nine Inch Nails concert... although I brought earplugs But then again, most of my friends do things like this too, so for me, anyways, it IS "traditional". The examples you gave of things that are "different" are things that I find to be completely normal. It's generational, I think... a middle-aged ESTJ might be much more closed-minded, because today's culture isn't the one they were raised with, and a (American) white male ESTJ might be more closed-minded, because, in all honesty, white males have traditionally been on the opposite side of change for much of history, while women and minorities haven't been. (But that's a HUGE generalization, so pardon me... you see my point, I hope.)

The bolded, though... is interesting. What sort of things, aside from their work efficiency and basic social skills, could be offensive to you?

Well, since I was talking about attire, here's one example (and many may find this closed-minded): I would be offended by a co-worker wearing a shirt into work with a Confederate flag print, because I always associate that with racism and slavery and such things. A more universal example: If I thought a co-worker was acting in a sexist way towards another co-worker of the opposite gender, I would be offended, even if it was simply how the person was raised. That sort of "different", for me, is difficult to excuse.

 

[Athenian200]

Oh, okay. This depends on the ESTJ, I think. Honestly, it depends on what the ESTJ considers to be "traditional". The idea of what's "traditional" is very subjective. I grew up in a liberal part of the country, with open-minded parents, and I went to schools with open outlooks. I've been to drag shows before, I have friends who dress up in leopard-print onesies because that's their style (she's the one who inspired the costume comment), and I went to a Nine Inch Nails concert... although I brought earplugs But then again, most of my friends do things like this too, so for me, anyways, it IS "traditional". The examples you gave of things that are "different" are things that I find to be completely normal. It's generational, I think... a middle-aged ESTJ might be much more closed-minded, because today's culture isn't the one they were raised with, and a (American) white male ESTJ might be more closed-minded, because, in all honesty, white males have traditionally been on the opposite side of change for much of history, while women and minorities haven't been. (But that's a HUGE generalization, so pardon me... you see my point, I hope.)

Ah. Well, it might have something to do with my growing up in the South, too. I guess it just never occurred to me that tradition could be anything other than what the previous generations valued, that we've started to question now.

Well, since I was talking about attire, here's one example (and many may find this closed-minded): I would be offended by a co-worker wearing a shirt into work with a Confederate flag print, because I always associate that with racism and slavery and such things. A more universal example: If I thought a co-worker was acting in a sexist way towards another co-worker of the opposite gender, I would be offended, even if it was simply how the person was raised. That sort of "different", for me, is difficult to excuse.

Oh. Well, I'd be offended by that, too. That kind of behavior is inexcusable to me. It's just that I'd associate what you described (racism/slavery and sexism) with being traditional rather than being different. Which is why I tend to be anxious when someone implies that they value tradition.

 

[PeaceBaby]

Hmm... INFPs can be, anyway. Kidding. Yes, I suppose anyone can be closed-minded.

INFP's, close-minded? An oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ They don't seem as open-minded as INFJs, a lot of the time.

They'll act very casual and accepting of just about everyone else on the outside, but when it comes to their inner ethics many of them are much less forgiving of what they see as moral transgressions in others...there's almost an air of self-righteousness with some of them; they just don't really show it most of the time unless backed into an ethical corner where they have no choice but to respond negatively for fear of violating their values.

 

[PeaceBaby]

A question: is anyone completely forgiving of "moral" transgressions, really? You would be comfortable being cheated on, having something stolen from you, being lied to?

Just about everyone I know would find these types of behaviors unacceptable. Perhaps it is best not to generalize to such an extent.

 

[Athenian200]

I just don't want to be like this woman:

Right, that kind of thinking is the enemy. You nailed it. And one of my goals is to weaken such values and ideas enough that only people who genuinely WANT to be like that will have to be concerned with being like that. Mostly because it doesn't seem right to me for someone who doesn't want to be like that to be expected to change who they are.

It honestly sounds as if you hate tradition as much, or possibly even more, than I do. It's hard to understand how you can see yourself as supporting tradition when you're so clearly opposed to it.

Oh, well... I'm beginning to think MBTI really only defines how we view ourselves in relation to what we've associated with particular words and ideas, and how we see ourselves in contrast to the people around us. The word, "tradition" for instance... can mean totally different things to different people. For instance, since I'm somewhat left-wing/liberal, and grew up in the South... I've pretty much associated tradition with the old, backwards social values liberals fight against. It's gotten associated with words like "injustice" and "arbitrary." It's only really starting to hit me now, that it might not mean that to someone else...

 

[d@v3]

(Not all girls do the annoying things I described...

They don't? Not even the majority of them? That is such very good news for me then!

I just don't want to be like this woman:

LoL! I don't blame you. But I bet the ISFJ/ISTJ girls would! They are just too afraid to admit it!

 

[EJCC]

A question: is anyone completely forgiving of "moral" transgressions, really? You would be comfortable being cheated on, having something stolen from you, being lied to?

Just about everyone I know would find these types of behaviors unacceptable. Perhaps it is best not to generalize to such an extent.[/QUOTE]
Nah, I think it's okay... everybody has issues with things like that, to an extent, but maybe SJs more than others.
...Hard question! I guess... I can be forgiving, but I'd need time, and I'd need need something in return - not a material thing, but they'd need to be sorry for what they did... or at least, I'd need a good reason (closure=good). One of my friends betrayed me a while back, and I found out later that her emotional state was pretty fragile at the time because her dad was in bad shape - a few months after she hurt me, he committed suicide. Gradually, as time went on, my dislike was replaced by pity, and finally I was completely over it.
If it was something like stealing, I'd need, again, time to get over it, as well as proof from multiple sources that they wouldn't steal from me again. If they did end up stealing from me again, it would be MUCH harder to win my trust back.

Right, that kind of thinking is the enemy. You nailed it. And one of my goals is to weaken such values and ideas enough that only people who genuinely WANT to be like that will have to be concerned with being like that. Mostly because it doesn't seem right to me for someone who doesn't want to be like that to be expected to change who they are.

Couldn't have said it better myself I'm not sure if I'm active enough about it to say that fixing that is one of my personal goals (gender roles and such are not always on my mind), but when I see that sort of bias, I step in. I can't just let them say that, you know?
I can see why it would be more on your mind, though. In the south, compared to where I live, sexism is a huge problem.

It honestly sounds as if you hate tradition as much, or possibly even more, than I do. It's hard to understand how you can see yourself as supporting tradition when you're so clearly opposed to it.

HOLD UP THERE!!! I never said that. I have immense respect for tradition. It's sexism, racism and all other similar bias that I can't stand. The thing is that so many traditions are deeply rooted in inexcusable bias that I just can't stick up for them.
My mother used to live in the south, and her parents were VERY racist. They would tell her not to try on hats, because if a black person had tried it on, it would have lice in it. Thankfully, she became a worldly woman, and learned that her parents had it wrong on that subject. Every time I visit my grandparents, I get weird remarks about black people (like Tiger Woods), and it's awful to deal with ('cause, speaking of tradition, I've been brought up to speak respectfully to my elders, which means that when they say something reprehensible, I can't respond... which isn't exactly fun for someone like me). So you can trust me, Athenian, when I say that I've seen examples of tradition hurting society. Let me tell YOU: if the choice is between fighting for justice or fighting for tradition, I'm choosing justice!!!!
</rant>

Oh, well... I'm beginning to think MBTI really only defines how we view ourselves in relation to what we've associated with particular words and ideas, and how we see ourselves in contrast to the people around us. The word, "tradition" for instance... can mean totally different things to different people. For instance, since I'm somewhat left-wing/liberal, and grew up in the South... I've pretty much associated tradition with the old, backwards social values liberals fight against. It's gotten associated with words like "injustice" and "arbitrary." It's only really starting to hit me now, that it might not mean that to someone else...

I completely and utterly see where you're coming from. In your situation, there is no doubt in my mind that I'd feel the same way. I am so thankful that there is such a thing as a "new tradition"... or else we'd be screwed.

Thank you SO much for this, Athenian! This has been one of the best discussions I've had on this site. We're on the same page! Excellent!

 

[runvardh]

Wow, do those actually, really exist anymore? Most women I end up getting close to tend to be the kind that I have to scare out of the kitchen with the spatula or worry about her starving when I end up working a night shift. One girl taught me that I still am the only one who actually knows how to do my laundry (I lost good shirts in that load, damn it! :steam. I've also dated a few girls who are worse than me when it comes to messes and then they have the gall to order me to clean it up because they can't stand the mess. Right now, I'd be happy with someone who at least made it easier for me to make sure shit's done.

 

[EJCC]

Wow, do those actually, really exist anymore? Most women I end up getting close to tend to be the kind that I have to scare out of the kitchen with the spatula or worry about her starving when I end up working a night shift. One girl taught me that I still am the only one who actually knows how to do my laundry (I lost good shirts in that load, damn it! :steam. I've also dated a few girls who are worse than me when it comes to messes and then they have the gall to order me to clean it up because they can't stand the mess. Right now, I'd be happy with someone who at least made it easier for me to make sure shit's done.

Well... hm. I wish more guys were like this. It would certainly make me less concerned. I mean, I love to cook, and I knit and I sew a little bit, and I tend to obsessively clean and enjoy that, so I'm always concerned that I'm going to be reduced to that once I get married. Becoming the stereotypical American wife is the stuff of my nightmares.

 

[simulatedworld]

^ Do you like ENTPs and/or long walks on the beach?

 

[EJCC]

^ Do you like ENTPs and/or long walks on the beach?

Hm...
I'm not sure what I think of ENTPs. They always argue with me, and sometimes I take that personally. And the unhealthy ones put me off big time. But they're cool, I think.
I'm not sure if I like long walks on the beach. I think I enjoy long walks in the woods more... or long hikes in the mountains, with the occasional break near a river to go wading But I like long walks on the beach more if I'm chatting with someone while I walk.
Oh, you reminded me of this comic.

 

[Fidelia]

Runvardh -

I notice you're from Alberta. I'm also from the Prairies. I wonder if some of the talk about cooking/domestic skills etc is centred in what geographic area we all respectively come from. I know there are very few women my age that know how to cook anymore/host a gathering/sew etc and that many of the guys my age end up taking care of their girlfriends they are living with (who flatly refuse to learn how to do any of those things). I've found that the Newfoundlanders I am acquainted with largely occupy much more traditional male and female roles and perhaps that has something to do with the kind of work men there have and the fact that they often are working away. When I went there, I really felt like I was stepping back to the 60s or something - more like when my parents were first married.

 

[simulatedworld]

I liked a certain ESTJ girl at one point because she was really sharp but in different ways, so we'd constantly be grasping just short of each other's thought patterns and one-upping each other. It was cute.

She also loved to cook and was very concerned with appearances and so on...we certainly had some vehement disagreements but...I do kind of miss her.

ENTPs will show you how to apply your drive to succeed in a more unorthodox way. You might like them if you find a patient one

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Well, I like silly people outside of work (or when I need a distraction from work), but when they can't stop being silly in a work situation or some other one where they need to be serious, THAT bugs me. So, I don't like relentlessly silly people, which is why I used INTPs as an example of good-silly; they can be serious much of the time, but other times they're as silly as silly can be

The ESTJ I know once told me, "You make me feel like a kid again"...I took that as a really great compliment. By the way, ESTJ can definitely be provoked into silly behavior But when I think about it, this was one on one. Never in front of others.

 

[EJCC]

The ESTJ I know once told me, "You make me feel like a kid again"...I took that as a really great compliment. By the way, ESTJ can definitely be provoked into silly behavior But when I think about it, this was one on one. Never in front of others.

Cute!! And excellent use of the ninja smiley
However, with me anyways, I can be very silly in large groups... as long as they aren't total strangers who might be creeped out by my behavior. (Once, when I was in sixth grade, I was being incredibly loud and silly with some friends of mine, and a teacher asked me if I was drunk. )

 

[ChocolateMoose123]

Thanks!

Speaking of drinking...The ESTJ I know does these things if we go out:

1) He's the one feeding everyone shots, but doesn't drink more than one or two during the night. Sits back and watches US all make fools of ourselves.

2) When we first started dating, did #1 but then on the ride home started "interviewing" me on what I liked about him. Basically, tried to get info from me. I'm actually laughing as I wrote that...:shakes head: always in control!

This may just be this ESTJ, but I'm wondering if you can relate at all.

Oh, and someone asked before, INTPatricia I think, about how a male ESTJ may act when interested. I can only speak for myself and my past situation. I made the first contact to talk to him. If you talk to him as a friend - you'll get a friend. I had to put it out there first and flirt with him. Once I did that, we had this really great back and forth flirty bantering and the rest was history. He pursued me after that.

 

[Fidelia]

Wow! I've witnessed both #1 and 2 as well! I think I talked to my ESTJ first, but he initiated everything after that. He insisted on coming over to my house to fix something that I had asked his advice about (without that intention) and decided that the method of payment he would like would be for me to make him supper sometime (I gave him $20 in a card to make sure it was clear I hadn't been asking for his expertise with romantic intent). He took the bull by the horns and threw me a birthday party (we were many new people in a new place in September) although he didn't know me and he invited a bunch of people and baked a cake (although he doesn't like desserts or make them usually). When the dinner invite didn't come soon enough, he invited me for dinner and went all out with displays of his cooking, telling me several days ahead of time what was on the menu (he always likes to know what the menu will be for awhile so he can happily anticipate it, even if it's only sandwiches).