[ESTJ] Ask an ESTJ!

[miss fortune]

my ESTJ friend's birthday is coming up and there are two things in life she totally loves- cooking or historical fiction novels... I can't decide whether to get her something food related or a novel

any input on which would be more sensible?

(for background, she and her husband even take cooking classes together... and she rides the metro to work and reads while riding)

 

[EJCC]

I'd probably go with both. You could get her a novel (I'd recommend one of the Master and Commander books if she hasn't read them already, and I've heard "Wolf Hall" is amazing) and some cooking-related goodie that she needs. e.g. if you've heard her complaining about not having a good spatula or something.

Of course, I don't know your spending limit or anything...

 

[BlueSprout]

What do ESTJ women make of certain 'feminine' behavioral expectations from more 'traditional' family, friends or romantic partners? For instance, that they be emotionally sensitive, not too loudly opinionated, docile, not overly ambitious, etc. So (I'm thinking specifically of you EJCC ) is it usually 'enough' to knit, cook, etc.? Or are there sometimes more expectations related to your manners and way of approaching people than related to your work, preferred activities and hobbies themselves?

 

[EJCC]

^ I was lucky enough to grow up in an environment that didn't really involve gender roles. My mom did do all the cooking, but that was because my dad worked long hours and couldn't do any himself. Based on school, family, etc, I'm to the point where I hardly think about my gender at all (e.g. sometimes I'll have the thought "Oh right, I'm a girl! I forgot that it actually MATTERS" ). So in terms of hobbies and such, my love of knitting and cooking literally has NOTHING to do with my gender. In fact, a man's clothes were what inspired me to knit.

Specifically, this man's clothes:

When I was in late elementary school/late middle school, I fell in love with Pokemon, and, in turn, fell in love with Ash Ketchum's gloves. This was before fingerless gloves were back in fashion, so there was nowhere to buy them. Therefore, a couple of years later, I started to knit so that I could make fingerless gloves for myself. And I did!

But to answer your question...
1. When people expect women to act a certain way similar to what you mentioned, it makes me SO ANGRY! Especially angry, since I can't REASON with those people, because those beliefs AREN'T RATIONAL, and I don't do well when I try to debate irrational people.
2. There are some gender expectations that I have to deal with. Most of those expectations are from other girls, actually, and those expectations involve me needing to fake Fe at them, i.e. pretending like I'm happy to see them all the time, pretending like I care about their problems, pretending like I'm okay with how incredibly boy-centric their minds are when I couldn't care less about that sort of gossip. I think my ESTJ-ness makes me a bit intimidating to guys my age, which has made it difficult to get dates... but whatever.

You have no idea how thankful I am that I didn't grow up in a decade where women were expected to be any/all of those adjectives you listed. Things are so much better now *sigh*

 

[Tamske]

my ESTJ friend's birthday is coming up and there are two things in life she totally loves- cooking or historical fiction novels... I can't decide whether to get her something food related or a novel
any input on which would be more sensible?
(for background, she and her husband even take cooking classes together... and she rides the metro to work and reads while riding)

Why not a book or cooking voucher? If somebody tried to give me something in my passions (fantasy fiction, physics, writing), it would probably be something I have got already or something I'm not interested in. I'm not morally obligated to be interested in everything that has something to do with physics, even if I *am* a physicist. New Age ravings about quantum mechanics, no thank you. Problem is, if you aren't a physicist (and probably you aren't), it's practically impossible to distinguish between an interesting physics-related gift and something nonsensical.
I guess it would be the same with any other passion you don't share. You don't know the subject well enough to know what is interesting to the other person.
Or would that appear too "impersonal"? If I know the ESTJs well enough, "practical" is more worth than "personal"

About the expectations for females... I'm happy I don't have to live the nightmare BlueSprout described. The only thing that our society needs to learn now is to liberate the men, too. If it's perfectly okay for a girl to be interested in marbles and cars, why wouldn't it be okay for a boy to be interested in fashion?

Edit: I'm laughing now because of your motto, EJCC. Can I have some Te too? Mine is exhausted already

 

[EJCC]

Why not a book or cooking voucher? If somebody tried to give me something in my passions (fantasy fiction, physics, writing), it would probably be something I have got already or something I'm not interested in. I'm not morally obligated to be interested in everything that has something to do with physics, even if I *am* a physicist. New Age ravings about quantum mechanics, no thank you. Problem is, if you aren't a physicist (and probably you aren't), it's practically impossible to distinguish between an interesting physics-related gift and something nonsensical.
I guess it would be the same with any other passion you don't share. You don't know the subject well enough to know what is interesting to the other person.
Or would that appear too "impersonal"? If I know the ESTJs well enough, "practical" is more worth than "personal"

I think that a gift certificate to a favorite bookstore or favorite electronics/appliances/cooking-utensils store (whatever you call dem things) might be just as good as, or better than, what I previously described. Even if it's more impersonal, it still shows you know them well, and that you thought about it before you bought it.

About the expectations for females... I'm happy I don't have to live the nightmare BlueSprout described. The only thing that our society needs to learn now is to liberate the men, too. If it's perfectly okay for a girl to be interested in marbles and cars, why wouldn't it be okay for a boy to be interested in fashion?

+1

Edit: I'm laughing now because of your motto, EJCC. Can I have some Te too? Mine is exhausted already

Here you go!

 

[Tamske]

Thanks!
That was a really strong cup of Te, it helped me through the spelling and grammar check of my novel

 

[ChildoftheProphets]

Improving Relations

Hello, I'm new to the forums, and once I realized that this thread had nearly 700 more pages after the first 14, I decided to stop reading, and just get straight to the asking (so I apologize if this has come up before):

I'm an INFP who has one or two ESTJs in my life whom I don't get along with, and apparently this is a somewhat common problem for people of our types.

What can I do to strengthen my relationships with them?

The first is my grandfather, who also happens to have a poor relationship with my dad, an ISTP. The second is my best friend's step-dad, whose house I actually lived in for about two years after high school.

Both of these SJs exhaust me with their proclivity to talk for literally hours on end sometimes, and they have slowly driven me away from them by their tendency to belittle me and/or other people who do not agree with them on any and all issues.

I'm in my early twenties right now and I am taking time off from school to develop myself in some nontraditional ways, which both of them do not approve of. I used to try to explain my actions and decisions as respectfuly, logically, and diplomatically as possible, but as time went on I realized that such efforts were futile, insofar as my logic and actions continue to fall short of their expectations and elicit their unwelcome suggestions.

I know they both want the best for me and both want me to be successful, and I understand that their sarcastic humor is not meant to drive me away, but before I can return to the path they want me to take, I need to keep walking on my own for awhile.

I just feel bad that my freedom has temporarily come at the cost of our relationships.

 

[Riva]

Off topic.

ESTJs simple but practical nature is truly admirable. Practical, get it done, simple, no delays....

 

[ChildoftheProphets]

Curzon, would you agree that Miles O'Brien was an ESTJ? Uncomplicated?

Nice avatar by the way. You obviously have very good taste. ; )

 

[EJCC]

Childoftheprophets:

Thank you for this question. It's been a long time since someone asked a question on this thread that I really really needed to think about. I think I understand both sides of this issue enough to give you some okay advice.

It sounds like the main issue is that they're nagging at you all the time about your time off school. The other issues you mentioned (i.e. talking a lot, criticizing your every move) may just be who they are... and either way, I'd rather just start with the issue at hand.

I have an ENTP friend who's made some unique life decisions since I've known her, and I used to talk to her about them in a similar way to what you're describing with the two ESTJs in your life. I was doing that (and I think the two ESTJs are doing what they're doing for the same reason) because I cared about her and wanted what's best for her, because the uniqueness of her life path worried me, because it seemed random and not like it would lead directly to a good career/life, and because if I were her and in the same place, I would be terrified. However, my ENTP friend made a point of emphasizing the fact that this was what she wanted to do, and she had everything under control, and, most importantly, nothing I could say could change her mind. That completely convinced me, and since then I have not spoken a word to her about it.

I suggest that you do something similar to what my ENTP friend did, i.e. something like "I know you only want what's best for me, but this is the path that I have chosen, and my mind and my heart are set, and as much as I appreciate your advising, I have made my decision." As much as ESTJs are inclined towards bossing people around, and asking them to do things their way all the time, most of them know a pointless endeavor when they see it. (We don't like things that are pointless or inefficient, after all.) So hopefully, after something like that, they would respect your wishes.

Curzon:
OH yeah. Practicality party!

 

[Riva]

Curzon, would you agree that Miles O'Brien was an ESTJ? Uncomplicated?

Miles O'Brien is a ISTP. Not an ISTJ or ESTJ. He is one of the more silent ISTPs. There are many types of ISTPs as in all other personality types. There are extroverted ISTPs too. But Miles is definitely one of the introverted ones.

Odo is DS9 is a ISTJ. There are similarities between ISTPs and ISTJs (I know you meant ESTJ). But only in appearance. Odo if you recall work and perform his duties because those are his duties. Responsibilities are something ISTJs don't neglect.

Where as Miles has a different approach to work. He works (works hard when he has to) only because that is the most practical and logical thing to do. Not because he is asked to do it or because those are his responsibilities.

ISTJ - Practical and responsible
ISTP - Practical and 'do it if it only makes sense'.

----

It should also be noted that ISTPs shadow functions are Te, Si, Ne, Fi. Which are the main functions of ESTJs. Apparently any type could sink in to their shadow functions and work as if those are their primary functions if they want to. So an ISTP could work as a ESTJ if they want to (theoretically).

Nice avatar by the way. You obviously have very good taste. ; )

Everyone keeps on saying Curzon you have such a nice avatar and good looks.

 

[ChildoftheProphets]

@EJCC:

Thank you very much for your advice, and I'm glad I could give you something to think about! Lol, between that and the new ESTJ board member, I'd imagine this is a big weekend for you!

I guess I need to make it clearer to the naggers in my life that my path is not open for continuous discussion and that I've allowed my patience to be misinterpreted as an invitation for debate.

Still, I don't won't hurt anyone's feelings, but perhaps some level of upset is unavoidable. People can't be expected to agree on everything . . . .

Also, on a somewhat related note, I think my SJ difficulties really started in high school after I lost faith in a lot of people and things I previously trusted in. What little affinity with Guardians I had suddenly disappeared altogether.

Embracing my Guardian side and becoming a more dedicted person now will help me a lot when I go back to school later, if that makes any sense . . . .

 

[ChildoftheProphets]

@Curzon:

Ha, I figured O'Brien didn't quite fit that description, but I said "ESTJ" anyway so I could shoehorn DS9 into this ESTJ thread!

Lol, maybe we should start our own DS9 personality discussion; that might be pretty fun, as there was a lot of personality on that show!

 

[branflakes]

If an ESTJ is talking too much (about himself) and not stopping or giving the other side a chance to speak, what should you tell him to shut him up?

 

[EJCC]

@EJCC:
...
I guess I need to make it clearer to the naggers in my life that my path is not open for continuous discussion and that I've allowed my patience to be misinterpreted as an invitation for debate.

Still, I don't won't hurt anyone's feelings, but perhaps some level of upset is unavoidable. People can't be expected to agree on everything . . . .

If you approach it right, and if the ESTJs are rational/not too touchy, then no one's feelings will be hurt. If their feelings do get hurt, it's 90% likely that it won't be your fault, anyways.

Also, on a somewhat related note, I think my SJ difficulties really started in high school after I lost faith in a lot of people and things I previously trusted in. What little affinity with Guardians I had suddenly disappeared altogether.

Embracing my Guardian side and becoming a more dedicted person now will help me a lot when I go back to school later, if that makes any sense . . . .

It makes sense. But what matters is that the path you're taking is best for you. The Guardian method doesn't work for everyone. Don't force something on you that doesn't make sense for the way you want to develop your skills, or just approach life, or whatever.

EDIT:

If an ESTJ is talking too much (about himself) and not stopping or giving the other side a chance to speak, what should you tell him to shut him up?

I'd just cut in with whatever you want to say, when you want to say it. I doubt that they'd take it personally. However, they probably WOULD take it personally if you were direct with them about it. If it's a debate situation, and they're shutting you down, I'd just be forceful and say "Excuse me, would you give me an opportunity to respond?" And then they will, if they respect you at all.

 

[JAVO]

In a moment of complete silliness, I accidentally gnawed on an ESTJ's arm. What should I do?

 

[ChildoftheProphets]

Thanks EJCC; I'll keep all that in mind.

And I think when I said I have to be more of a Guardian, be more dedicated, I meant in defense of my own goals, beliefs, and identity, not in response to other people's preferences.

Lol, if I actually am in supreme command of what I'm doing, and doing it resolutely, people won't be worrying so much about me doing it in the first place!

 

[BlueFlame]

What were you like growing up?
I'm becoming fairly certain I'm raising an ESTJ little girl, and I'm wondering what another one was like
One of my best friends is an ESTJ as well, so I'm looking at commonalities and all that good stuff!

 

[EJCC]

Thanks EJCC; I'll keep all that in mind.

No problem!

In a moment of complete silliness, I accidentally gnawed on an ESTJ's arm. What should I do?

That is so adorable! Did the ESTJ react well? Was it awkward? 'Cause if it wasn't awkward, then you don't need to do anything

What were you like growing up?
I'm becoming fairly certain I'm raising an ESTJ little girl, and I'm wondering what another one was like
One of my best friends is an ESTJ as well, so I'm looking at commonalities and all that good stuff!

Hm... Not sure if all of these apply, but here are some of the characteristics I had as a child:
- Most of the time, either in a generally friendly/genial mood or really really hyper (i.e. not whiny, not cranky, but a very happy kid overall)
- Not exactly "tomboyish" per se, but interested in guy-dominated hobbies, and friends with more guys than girls
- A "good kid"; never got in trouble, was never "grounded", always did well in school, generally didn't challenge authority unless the authority was being "unfair", or unless the authority wasn't as knowledgeable on a particular subject*
- Kind of a know-it-all
- Assertive, blunt, and pretty arrogant
- Occasionally very creative (within limits)
- VERY loyal to friends, and even more so to family (had a sense of duty even at a young age)
- Afraid of new things, and unwilling to step out of comfort zone
- Tendency to take things personally
- Lots and lots of Enneagram 1 characteristics (especially the need to make excuses for every single thing done wrong)
- Easily embarrassed (e.g. "Crap! I should NOT have said that. SUCH a mistake!")
- Prone towards outbursts of anger (sometimes involving hitting people**, but most of the time not)
- Not so good at saying goodbyes, or apologizing to people
- Tendency to accidentally offend people
- Mature; often better at interacting with adults than with other kids*** and very good at sucking up to teachers (not intentionally sucking up to them, but being nice to them and getting on their good side, and as a result being a bit of a teachers pet and not as well-liked by fellow students for that exact reason).

Etc. Can't think of anything else at the moment, but that should be good for starters

*If a teacher spelled something incorrectly on the board, I would, on occasion, run up to the front while they weren't looking and correct their spelling. OR I would just raise my hand and correct them that way.
**If I were a boy, I'm certain that I would have beat kids up if I were mad at them. If I weren't raised by such a nice family, I'm sure I would have been a bully.
***Adults were more likely to get my sense of humor