[Traditional Enneagram] 4s - Why

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

So I'm very close with a 4, and of course I like him, but we are pretty unalike in a lot of ways.
Also, I just read that 4's are healthy when they are envious and emotionally turbulent? What the FLYING FUCK?
This, unfortunately, sounds exactly like my E4 friend.

Its either a) I'm more assertive than usual and he doesn't piss me off as much
Or b) I'm nice and then he says petty shit that makes me wanna punch him


4s: What the hell. What do you suggest? pls help

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION]
I don't really know you too well, but I noticed you were a 4.
Help?
[MENTION=15318]Nights and Days[/MENTION]

 

[LadyLazarus]

Oh yay!My favorite subject; me!

Where did you read that?
As a sexual 4, I am the "counter-envy" 4, perhaps, that may hold more truth in regards to sp and so 4's.
When I am healthy I become very self-righteous, confident, and equal parts more combative and receptive, I also begin to become more aware/sympathetic towards others.The emotionally turbulent part sounds correct, even when healthy, my emotions fluctuate a lot, which is why I can't stay healthy/unhealthy for very long, I tend to vacillate between integration into 1 and disintegration into 2, however I've never completely disintegrated on my own, only in relationships.

Do you consider your friend to be unhealthy? From what I'm understanding he may be sinking into the unhealthy levels of 4. I've found that no one can pull me out of my unhealthy states but myself, however I've also found talking about it with my loved ones to be comforting in a short term sort of way, when I was extremely unhealthy, especially when it seemed like they where "mirroring" my emotions, so to speak, it drives me crazy when people seem indifferent to my feelings, so I suggest listening and trying to understand his emotions.Make him feel like you're paying attention to what he's saying, be receptive and attentive.

By the way, are you certain he is a 4? What do you think is his biggest fear?

 

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

"The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)
When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), aloof Fours suddenly become over-involved and clinging at Two. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), envious, emotionally turbulent Fours become more objective and principled, like healthy Ones. For more information, click here."

^^ straight from the enneagram institute.

He is 4 as all fuck, lol. He is by far the most emotional of all the people that I hang out with. I could go into detail, but I won't. He's very very 4.

Well, one big difference is that he's a guy. Meaning more testosterone. I also suspect that he his 8w9 as the second part of his tri type.
- basically this means you, but a little more aggressive.


Its really not that I can't handle him, because I can. It's just that I'm becoming an adult and I wanna help/get along with the people around me rather than scare of the people who I dont understand. Also, we have a lot of the same friends, so that not practical anyways.

Plus, he means well, and its not as bad as I might be making it sound. I just wanna opinion


EDIT:
Oh, biggest fear is definitely feeling insignificant...Which is where our problems arise

 

[LadyLazarus]

"The Meaning of the Arrows (in brief)
When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), aloof Fours suddenly become over-involved and clinging at Two. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), envious, emotionally turbulent Fours become more objective and principled, like healthy Ones. For more information, click here."

Actually this is saying that when healthy, 4's, who are envious and emotionally turbulent when average, become principled and etc. like type 1's, not that 4's become envious and emotionally turbulent when they're healthy.

Well, one big difference is that he's a guy. Meaning more testosterone. I also suspect that he his 8w9 as the second part of his tri type.
- basically this means you, but a little more aggressive.

Haha my tritype is know as the assertive 4, and the sexual instinct is quite aggressive in itself, but I'd rather not go on about how "so very aggressive" I am, as I don't usually believe people who outwardly go on about themselves in such a manner in regards to how tough and how bad ass they are, seems like overcompensation/fake to me.
But I digress, I don't think gender has too much to do with level of aggression in an individual, and I've been told most 4's are actually usually gut-fix last.

Its really not that I can't handle him, because I can. It's just that I'm becoming an adult and I wanna help/get along with the people around me rather than scare of the people who I dont understand.

Plus, he means well.


EDIT:
Oh, biggest fear is definitely feeling insignificant...Which is where our problems arise

I see, yes I can understand that, I would just suggest trying to show him that you are receptive and understanding of his feelings, and whatever you do don't ignore him/ seem indifferent to his feelings , it drives types within the reactive triad(4,6,8) crazy.

 

[ndovjtjcaqidthi]

"When moving in their Direction of Disintegration (stress), aloof Fours suddenly become over-involved and clinging at Two. However, when moving in their Direction of Integration (growth), envious, emotionally turbulent Fours become more objective and principled, like healthy Ones. For more information, click here."

Why did you say that healthy fours are envious and emotionally turbulent? That's not what that quote even says.

And I don't really know what to say.. Need more info.

I would just suggest trying to show him that you are receptive and understanding of his feelings, and whatever you do don't ignore him/ seem indifferent to his feelings , it drives types within the reactive triad(4,6,8) crazy.

Ooh.. Yeah.

 

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

Actually this is saying that when healthy 4's, who are envious and emotionally turbulent when average, become principled and etc. like type 1's, not that 4's become envious and emotionally turbulent when they're healthy.

Lol, sorry, I can't read good.

So yeah, I would say he's some mid to maybe lower level of unhealthy then. Or at least was. I used to live with him and did for 2.5 years.
Right after I moved out, we talked and he was telling me how he had negative thoughts and he didn't like it.

He's doing a little better now, I would think. Not because I left, because I know he liked me living there.

Haha my tritype is know as the assertive 4, and the sexual instinct is quite aggressive in itself, but I'd rather not go on about how so very aggressive I am, as I don't usually believe people who outwardly go on about themselves and how bad ass they are, seems like overcompensation to me.

LMAO, LMAO.




But, yeah good advice and listening has always helped in this situation. I think it'll be fine.

Why did you say that healthy fours are envious and emotionally turbulent? That's not what that quote even says.

I can't read good.

whatever you do don't ignore him/ seem indifferent to his feelings , it drives types within the reactive triad(4,6,8) crazy.

DEF guilty of this in the past. Oops
Im a Ti user, all Fi's get pissed at me at some point lol

 

[BlackCat]

You can't really fix this problem. I've been close to 4s, and they seem to be solely in charge of their feelings, without letting anything but their internal monologue affect it (which could or could not include others, depending on what "page" of emotions that they are on, it seems that at a flip of a hat they can be feeling totally different and have a whole new set of problems from before).

Thing is, 4s are constantly seeking perfection under the surface. They are looking for the ideal person to "complete" them as a person usually, and this stems to other things. They want the perfect everything, which will in their minds "complete" a certain part of their persona. 4s' basic feeling is that they are missing something and can't explain why. So this is why they are thinking this way constantly, because they actually want to be better and feel better but they get stuck I think.

It seems like for 4s to grow as a person, everything has to be going perfectly and their way so that their emotions don't get in the way.

So the TLDR: You will never know why. I only knew any of this because of my research, and had I not known this and not known them so closely as people then I would still be clueless. 4s tend to like a person who isn't bogged down by the feelings and their droopy moods, and enjoy someone who goes with the flow and has their own life but happily involves them in it.

 

[Amargith]

^Once you learn to see the beauty and uniqueness in the flaws that reality holds and therefore discover a new appreciation for such unconventional beauty, it becomes easier to use 'realistic' building blocks which then can be used as a foundation for that perfect vision.

However, that kind of appreciation is an acquired taste and takes serious self-reflection and a lot of negative emotions and re-runs of situations which are imperfect before it is discovered, ime. You have to take the time to grieve and accept that your old vision will never be before you can be open to taking in these new parameters for beauty and make something even more stunning yet durable out of it.

 

[grey_beard]

Oh yay!My favorite subject; me!

Where did you read that?
As a sexual 4, I am the "counter-envy" 4, perhaps, that may hold more truth in regards to sp and so 4's.
When I am healthy I become very self-righteous, confident, and equal parts more combative and receptive, I also begin to become more aware/sympathetic towards others.The emotionally turbulent part sounds correct, even when healthy, my emotions fluctuate a lot, which is why I can't stay healthy/unhealthy for very long, I tend to vacillate between integration into 1 and disintegration into 2, however I've never completely disintegrated on my own, only in relationships.

Do you consider your friend to be unhealthy? From what I'm understanding he may be sinking into the unhealthy levels of 4. I've found that no one can pull me out of my unhealthy states but myself, however I've also found talking about it with my loved ones to be comforting in a short term sort of way, when I was extremely unhealthy, especially when it seemed like they where "mirroring" my emotions, so to speak, it drives me crazy when people seem indifferent to my feelings, so I suggest listening and trying to understand his emotions.Make him feel like you're paying attention to what he's saying, be receptive and attentive.

By the way, are you certain he is a 4? What do you think is his biggest fear?

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION] --

So you're basically saying of a significant other, "They complete me. Wait, no they don't." And your E-type while in a relationship is therefore a 1.5 ?

 

[LadyLazarus]

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION] --

So you're basically saying of a significant other, "They complete me. Wait, no they don't." And your E-type while in a relationship is therefore a 1.5 ?

I never claimed to make sense. Especially not when it comes to my emotions. I was of course recalling my overall experience not trying to match up to a description, that defeats the purpose of all this.

 

[grey_beard]

I never claimed to make sense. I was of course recalling my overall experience not trying to match up to a description, that defeats the purpose of all this.

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION] -- conventional forum-thread-type apologies : I knew you weren't trying to match to a description, only, they don't make a /sarcasm> font so I did the best I could with the emoticon.

 

[LadyLazarus]

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION] -- conventional forum-thread-type apologies : I knew you weren't trying to match to a description, only, they don't make a /sarcasm> font so I did the best I could with the emoticon.

Haha it's fine, sorry; triple reactive you know?

 

[Firebird 8118]

So I'm very close with a 4, and of course I like him, but we are pretty unalike in a lot of ways.

THIS, right HERE, is exactly what I think about my friendship with a 4.

 

[OrangeAppled]

Oh yay!My favorite subject; me!

Where did you read that?
As a sexual 4, I am the "counter-envy" 4, perhaps, that may hold more truth in regards to sp and so 4's.
When I am healthy I become very self-righteous, confident, and equal parts more combative and receptive, I also begin to become more aware/sympathetic towards others.The emotionally turbulent part sounds correct, even when healthy, my emotions fluctuate a lot, which is why I can't stay healthy/unhealthy for very long, I tend to vacillate between integration into 1 and disintegration into 2, however I've never completely disintegrated on my own, only in relationships.

This is rather "average 4". I think when average or "high average" many feel "healthy" (a better term may be "developed") because they function pretty well in life. The vast, vast majority of people are at "average" levels (hence the term), so they may also compare themselves to the norm & think it's "healthy".

Anyway, I am probably an "average 4" and can relate to this. There is a struggle here to not slip into a tighter grip of the ego fix, but to integrate more. It's like you have enough awareness now to you can pull yourself up, but also that you can fall.

I'll feel a pull between
- healthy confidence/self-esteem vs elitism & counter-envy (making yourself enviable, counter-envy, envy denial)
- principled behaviors/attitudes vs self-righteousness & then indulgence ("I deserve it; I was good, and I did not get paid")
- honoring emotions as valid as they occur then moving on vs amplifying emotional states & using them as an identity
- receptive vs combative (good one there!)
- self-absorbed & self-pitying vs curious about others & empathetic


An awareness of envy & inner turbulence can be a step towards transcending them (which is not an "easy" process). I don't know if it would surface more as you become aware though. Perhaps if the 4 is working past shame, they will allow it to rear its head, as if it cannot be tamed until accepted. I can relate to that.... As a 4, you have to accept warts & imperfections don't make you unlovable or separate from the rest of humanity, and some of that can involve exposing those warts & imperfections because otherwise you hide out from life & hold people at arm's length. So maybe when healthier, the 4 friend is less withdrawn & depressive, but then the envy & melodrama are exposed.

 

[Sunny Ghost]

So I'm very close with a 4, and of course I like him, but we are pretty unalike in a lot of ways.
Also, I just read that 4's are healthy when they are envious and emotionally turbulent? What the FLYING FUCK?
This, unfortunately, sounds exactly like my E4 friend.

Its either a) I'm more assertive than usual and he doesn't piss me off as much
Or b) I'm nice and then he says petty shit that makes me wanna punch him


4s: What the hell. What do you suggest? pls help

[MENTION=20868]LadyLazarus[/MENTION]
I don't really know you too well, but I noticed you were a 4.
Help?
[MENTION=15318]Nights and Days[/MENTION]

Where'd you read that?? Doesn't sound healthy to me.

 

[Typh0n]

Also, I just read that 4's are healthy when they are envious and emotionally turbulent? What the FLYING FUCK?

Theyre not. Envious and turbulent are signs the four is unhealthy.

 

[TheCheeseBurgerKing]

Theyre not. Envious and turbulent are signs the four is unhealthy.

Yeah my b that was already sorted out earlier in the thread. I dont like 4s though.

 

[Noon]

I seem to have this dilemma where I'm addicted to 4s and afraid of them at the same time. Thread title is situation-appropriate.

 

[Zarathustra]

I seem to have this dilemma where I'm addicted to 4s and afraid of them at the same time.

That's exactly how I feel about them.

 

[Animal]

That's exactly how I feel about them.

My 6 friend is afraid of me and it makes me sad.
It's happened before too, with other 6s.