[Traditional Enneagram] 4s - Why

[Animal]

Also, I just read that 4's are healthy when they are envious and emotionally turbulent? What the FLYING FUCK?

4s: What the hell. What do you suggest? pls help

Why: Because 4s withdraw and don't express our emotions.
If we are expressing ourselves aloud and directly, that is more healthy.
Expressing ourselves includes envy and emotional turbulence.

Unhealthy 4 expresses it in their music or art, or in their diary, but doesn't tell you directly and secretly resents you for failing to figure it out. If you want an example of this mentality I can send you a link to my first music album.

Every song I'm so angry and jilted about him not caring, being with other women, tossing me out.

When I told him I cared about him, after 3 years of non-commitment and putting my feelings ONLY in my songs (which I didn't show anyone back then), he was shocked and told me he had to close off to me because he thought I didn't care. He was also a 4w5 secretly resenting me for the same thing. So we just played games for 3 years and the damage was irreparable. That's unhealthy 4.

Healthy: I tell my partner I'm jealous. I cry. He accepts it. I fall into his arms and laugh and thank him for accepting me. We make love.

 

[Noon]

That's exactly how I feel about them.

It's happened before too, with other 6s.

This is too funny. Not your sadness, Animal, I'm sorry - but the 6s. I honestly have a lot of sympathy for some of the sixing one of my 4s had to put up with. Why were they afraid? Do you know? I wonder if I'd relate.

 

[Zarathustra]

This is too funny. Not your sadness, Animal, I'm sorry - but the 6s. I honestly have a lot of sympathy for some of the sixing one of my 4s had to put up with. Why were they afraid? Do you know? I wonder if I'd relate.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the 4ing this six had to put up with!

 

[Zarathustra]

I feel a lot of sympathy for the 4ing this six had to put up with!

Seriously, tho...

What is it about 6s and 4s?

I honestly feel like we're both moths to each other's flames

 

[chickpea]

 

[Animal]

This is too funny. Not your sadness, Animal, I'm sorry - but the 6s. I honestly have a lot of sympathy for some of the sixing one of my 4s had to put up with. Why were they afraid? Do you know? I wonder if I'd relate.

Afraid of the way I dive into my emotions. I've literally made a 6 dig his nails into his skin just for watching me paint along with music. I'm so emotional.. and expressive.. 6s think away their emotions and don't want to be affected. They're building the very wall that I am breaking. But then, you know.. there's this beautiful wall. And I want to climb it. And bust through it. And I can't stop staring at the intricacies of it.

I feel a lot of sympathy for the 4ing this six had to put up with!

I feel more sorry for the 4'ing myself. ;D
Although I don't know.. my life-long nemesis (and muse) is a 6 and neither one of us has ever managed to destroy the other.

Seriously, tho...

What is it about 6s and 4s?

I honestly feel like we're both moths to each other's flames

I HATE 6's for this reason. Moth to each other's flames and then they get annoyed with me for being the same illogical, emotional me that they loved in the first place!!!!!! But they're so hot while they spew logic in my face… and the logic is so deliciously… logical.

grRrrrrr.

 

[Noon]

I feel a lot of sympathy for the 4ing this six had to put up with!

I honestly feel like we're both moths to each other's flames

It's true.

Afraid of the way I dive into my emotions. ... 6s compartmentalize away from their emotions and don't want to be affected.

This is funny because the reason I keep gravitating towards 4s is actually because they don't compartmentalize their emotions. They meet me halfway always & there's no roundabout fakeness before we get there; no fear about less-than-pretty things. The realness is what's most addictive aside from the things that might be coming from my 4 fix. I notice you're a sexual 4 though. Ha! The 4 I was most 'afraid' of was a sexual 4, and it was (a) when he got pissed off, (b) when he said something to shock or rattle me (that I sometimes took seriously, much to his chagrin ) that fear & testing came in.

Although I don't know.. my life-long nemesis (and muse) is a 6 and neither one of us has ever managed to destroy the other.

I am debating whether or not to take this risk with another 4.

 

[Noon]

On a more serious note though, it can't be coincidental that the people I've learned from and grown through the most have been 4s. The non-fear of not so pretty feelings extends to being the first to show me my own fears are not universally applicable very often. So with 4s we end up creating our own safe space where real healing actually happens. If they're creative it also feeds my own creativity.

Their being moody also makes them more understanding of other peoples' moodiness (even if my eterna-doubt & analysis paralyses might be more foreign).

So it's not just fire and drama and reactivity. Fours are genuinely great, refreshingly sensitive people. Thus my dilemma. Clearly I'm addicted in any case.

 

[Ginkgo]

I seem to have this dilemma where I'm addicted to 4s and afraid of them at the same time. Thread title is situation-appropriate.

That's exactly how I feel about them.

 

[Amargith]

Tbh, the anxiety and paranoia of a 6 is a turn-off - and something I cannot deal with long-term. I get that they don't mistrust me coz of who I am but coz they doubt their own judgement, but there's only so many times i'll prove to someone that I'm trustworthy before I'm exhausted and walk away. I don't particularly feel like staying where I'm (periodically) not wanted. I'll stick to the anger of an 8, or the shame of a 3.

And from their side, I'm sure they don't know how to deal with the emotional turbulence and moodiness that I need to go through to be able to function. I try to hide that from friends and family and isolate myself when it gets too bad, but my partner...well, I have to be able to be myself at home (and vice versa). Iow, someone who is not stressed by me being sullen or temperamental would be great.

 

[Evo]

Tbh, the anxiety and paranoia of a 6 is a turn-off - and something I cannot deal with long-term. I get that they don't mistrust me coz of who I am but coz they doubt their own judgement, but there's only so many times i'll prove to someone that I'm trustworthy before I'm exhausted and walk away. I don't particularly feel like staying where I'm (periodically) not wanted. I'll stick to the anger of an 8, or the shame of a 3.

And from their side, I'm sure they don't know how to deal with the emotional turbulence and moodiness that I need to go through to be able to function. I try to hide that from friends and family and isolate myself when it gets too bad, but my partner...well, I have to be able to be myself at home (and vice versa). Iow, someone who is not stressed by me being sullen or temperamental would be great.

Hmm. When I was with my ex who was a 4, I never really questioned his trustworthiness. I don't really do that with any of the 4's in my life actually One of the reason's I really like 4's.

Maybe you're talking about like the consistent unconscious testing that we do? Or the push-pull thing that may happen?

(I kinda enjoy a little push - pull.... )

(Can I ask what your INTJ's enneatype is, I forget if I've seen you talk about it before?)

 

[Amargith]

Hmm. When I was with my ex who was a 4, I never really questioned his trustworthiness. I don't really do that with any of the 4's in my life actually One of the reason's I really like 4's.

Maybe you're talking about like the consistent unconscious testing that we do? Or the push-pull thing that may happen?

(I kinda enjoy a little push - pull.... )

(Can I ask what your INTJ's enneatype is, I forget if I've seen you talk about it before?)

He's a 3w4

I find it's mostly 6s that are riddled with self-doubt that I run into with this issue. A 6 friend of mine constantly questions her own judgement - feeling that others have been able to somehow blindsight her. I can usually reassure her quite easily in the moment, but when she gets on her own, she'll start fretting again and suddenly you find that the emotional gap between the two of you is huge again.

I know she'd be there for me if I needed her - and I'm there for her. But the paranoia most definitely puts a damper on our friendship and trust in one another. Coz how can I ever truly earn her trust if she won't trust herself to judge my trustworthiness? And how can I ever truly trust her when she locks me out in self-defence emotionally each time?

 

[Zarathustra]

Hmm. When I was with my ex who was a 4, I never really questioned his trustworthiness. I don't really do that with any of the 4's in my life actually One of the reason's I really like 4's.

Maybe you're talking about like the consistent unconscious testing that we do? Or the push-pull thing that may happen?

(I kinda enjoy a little push - pull.... )

(Can I ask what your INTJ's enneatype is, I forget if I've seen you talk about it before?)

Yeah, I was thinking about replying to Amar's post, too, cuz there were some things in there I don't think were quite accurate...

 

[Zarathustra]

He's a 3w4

I find it's mostly 6s that are riddled with self-doubt that I run into with this issue. A 6 friend of mine constantly questions her own judgement - feeling that others have been able to somehow blindsight her. I can usually reassure her quite easily in the moment, but when she gets on her own, she'll start fretting again and suddenly you find that the emotional gap between the two of you is huge again.

I know she'd be there for me if I needed her - and I'm there for her. But the paranoia most definitely puts a damper on our friendship and trust in one another. Coz how can I ever truly earn her trust if she won't trust herself to judge my trustworthiness? And how can I ever truly trust her when she locks me out in self-defence emotionally each time?

Awwww

That's where the inaccuracy is coming from

Basing your notion of all of us on this one 6 you've experienced

I'm not saying I don't ever second guess myself, but... do I seem like someone who doesn't trust his own judgment?

I'll respond to your post above, but that was one of the key points where I was like, "Ummm... not really..."

 

[Amargith]

Awwww

That's where the inaccuracy is coming from

Basing your notion of all of us on this one 6 you've experienced

I'm not saying I don't ever second guess myself, but... do I seem like someone who doesn't trust his own judgment?

I'll respond to your post above, but that was one of the key points where I was like, "Ummm... not really..."

She was an example of a pattern I've picked up on. Granted, she is the more extreme example, and I used her to clarify my point more easily for that reason.

 

[Zarathustra]

She was an example of a pattern I've picked up on. Granted, she is the more extreme example, and I used her to clarify my point more easily for that reason.

Fair enough

I didn't think you necessarily did so so simply

But, you know, I will more one-sidedly make my point in order to make my point

 

[Amargith]

Fair enough

I didn't think you necessarily did so so simply

But, you know, I will more one-sidedly make my point in order to make my point

I'd expect nothing less

 

[Noon]

For what it's worth, I trusted the sx 4 in general - again because of the emotional realness; it's things that look too polished that I don't trust. My testing was in part because his tempers were so much stronger than mine that I was more affected.

My reactions surrounding anger are my 9 rather than my 6.

I wouldn't have been set against him in general though no matter how 'badly' he behaved, because what my 6 does do beyond a certain point is declare an "us against the world" stubborn loyalty. A lot of our [resolved] conflicts ultimately resulted in stronger loyalty. There's an unbelievable sense of security in the knowing that we will get everything out and probably go through the motions during resolution but at the end of the day will still be perfectly fine.

Besides that, I'd rather not hold negative feelings towards loved ones if I can help it.

 

[Evo]

He's a 3w4

I find it's mostly 6s that are riddled with self-doubt that I run into with this issue. A 6 friend of mine constantly questions her own judgement - feeling that others have been able to somehow blindsight her. I can usually reassure her quite easily in the moment, but when she gets on her own, she'll start fretting again and suddenly you find that the emotional gap between the two of you is huge again.

I know she'd be there for me if I needed her - and I'm there for her. But the paranoia most definitely puts a damper on our friendship and trust in one another. Coz how can I ever truly earn her trust if she won't trust herself to judge my trustworthiness? And how can I ever truly trust her when she locks me out in self-defence emotionally each time?

Ehhh, I'm def riddled with self doubt...even though, I don't like to admit that (dammit. ) And I don't consciously know I'm doing it most of the time either. So really, if I didn't know anything about enneagram, I would not really know what someone means by self doubting. I come off as confident, even overly confident irl. But now I know what self doubt looks like for me. So I try to be more aware of it. That's the only way I can even really grasp the fact that I am, cause I have been denying it my whole life.

Anyways, the underlying meaning I got from your post is that you're situation has to do with being emotionally open. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

But either way...I don't relate to your friend's description, simply cause I'm not that open emotionally. To anyone. So there's no......gap to rebuild...as you put it. Which really means I keep everyone at an arms length away, equally. At least to their face. I have no way of expressing emotions properly face to face.

I also would not like that ...what you described about your friend, that is. And that's because I like for there to be times where I don't see someone for 6 months...and I then we can pick right back up like nothing happened. I dislike when ppl are not flexible in that way. If I had to guess, the friend is not 6w7 are they? Cause the 7 is what keeps me opened up like that.

And just to clarify, I would say I put about 90% of myself (meaning trusting them, opening up to them, etc.) into a relationship. Right at the beginning when I meet them. And they either lose that trust over time...or it stays right up there at 90%. But no one gets that 10%. It is sacred. I have not met anyone that I could do that with (I don't even think I can trust myself with it lol). However, with that being said, hypothetically, if you were one of those ppl I could do that with....I can totally understand her having to rebuild the bridge of that gap every time. Because for me, I know it would break me to have that 10% crushed.

And going by my very brief interactions with you, I'm sure you're one of those people that could bring that out in others. But I can see how that could be a bit of a burden to have to do for someone with stronger preference of Fi, or even and sx dom like yourself.

My ISFJ friend always talks about how he has to take down his friend's(INTP) walls if they haven't talked in a while. It's a process. And just from hearing about his interactions....I know I would not want to do that every time I met up with someone. I would be exhausted.

(May I ask what your friend's MBTI is?)

Yeah, I was thinking about replying to Amar's post, too, cuz there were some things in there I don't think were quite accurate...

Yea, I needed an example. I don't know if I interpreted her example the same way you did though. I don't necessarily think her perception is inaccurate. / Not sure yet.

 

[Amargith]

Ehhh, I'm def riddled with self doubt...even though, I don't like to admit that (dammit. ) And I don't consciously know I'm doing it most of the time either. So really, if I didn't know anything about enneagram, I would not really know what someone means by self doubting. I come off as confident, even overly confident irl. But now I know what self doubt looks like for me. So I try to be more aware of it. That's the only way I can even really grasp the fact that I am, cause I have been denying it my whole life.

Anyways, the underlying meaning I got from your post is that you're situation has to do with being emotionally open. Please correct me if I'm wrong though.

But either way...I don't relate to your friend's description, simply cause I'm not that open emotionally. To anyone. So there's no......gap to rebuild...as you put it. Which really means I keep everyone at an arms length away, equally. At least to their face. I have no way of expressing emotions properly face to face.

I also would not like that ...what you described about your friend, that is. And that's because I like for there to be times where I don't see someone for 6 months...and I then we can pick right back up like nothing happened. I dislike when ppl are not flexible in that way. If I had to guess, the friend is not 6w7 are they? Cause the 7 is what keeps me opened up like that.

And just to clarify, I would say I put about 90% of myself (meaning trusting them, opening up to them, etc.) into a relationship. Right at the beginning when I meet them. And they either lose that trust over time...or it stays right up there at 90%. But no one gets that 10%. It is sacred. I have not met anyone that I could do that with (I don't even think I can trust myself with it lol). However, with that being said, hypothetically, if you were one of those ppl I could do that with....I can totally understand her having to rebuild the bridge of that gap every time. Because for me, I know it would break me to have that 10% crushed.

And going by my very brief interactions with you, I'm sure you're one of those people that could bring that out in others. But I can see how that could be a bit of a burden to have to do for someone with stronger preference of Fi, or even and sx dom like yourself.

My ISFJ friend always talks about how he has to take down his friend's(INTP) walls if they haven't talked in a while. It's a process. And just from hearing about his interactions....I know I would not want to do that every time I met up with someone. I would be exhausted.

(May I ask what your friend's MBTI is?)



Yea, I needed an example. I don't know if I interpreted her example the same way you did though. I don't necessarily think her perception is inaccurate. / Not sure yet.

My problem is that I require emotional closeness and work hard to establish that. While I have no problem creating the random moment here and there with acquaintances and friends, people who I hold dear I need a permanent state with to feel safe - to truly be myself. And having someone who non-stop reverts to the 'keeping them at arms-length' position is incredibly taxing for me. It basically means you're nonstop wiggling on my inner/outer circle line which drastically influences the amount of info you're entitled to. Compare it to non-stop having to open and close the castle gate - it gets exhausting as beyond the walls I'll stay in full battle armour and inside, I usually take off my armour.

6's seem to be focused on uncovering any inconsistencies that could in their mind hide unveiled truth. I get it, it is what makes you so great at anticipating danger and guarding against betrayal. But that means you're non-stop putting the topic/issue/problem before our relationship. *We* are never the priority. And that to me is the antithesis of trust. It also means that when I've been lulled into being comfortable around you and letting my guard down, it feels as if you're suddenly dragging me into the police station to be questioned by the KGB and dragged in front of a judge and jury. It's like having a friend that wears a wire around you - for me. And I...I just don't respond well to that. With friends, it wrecks the bond. People who do this to me when they don't even know me that well, I experience as just utterly disrespectful and arrogant as they apparently feel entitled to answers from me to soothe their own anxiety while questioning me in the most hostile way. It's like the inquisition all over again.

Anyways, call me elitist, but I feel that if you've vetted me and you have been my friend for a while, you owe me the benefit of the doubt - even and *especially* when you cannot see where Im coming from or why I would say such a thing. And (this is an Fi demand) that you actually have some grasp on who I am.That you'll know that the perception you're getting right now is in direct opposition with the person you know me to be - which *should* imho initially carry more weight than your snap shot of a perception. And often, I find, that that is not the case. Anxiety kicks in and the interrogation starts. Note that I said 'interrogation'. Genuine curiosity, genuine awareness of the fact that they don't have to answer your questions ( you don't even have to state this, it will just show in how you ask the question) and a desire to understand is very much appreciated as that leads again to feeling loved and understood.

I show my love by attempting to understand someone, to truly get where they're coming from and what is important to them in life. And yes, at the highest levels of friendship - and especially in my mate for life - I crave that someone does at least somewhat do the same for me. When you each time call me in for questioning, without the benefit of the doubt (You actually are pretty good about the benefit of the doubt, btw ),without taking two minutes to ask yourself how the situation likely makes sense to me, how it could not be what you perceive it to be, and how you can actually be fairly certain that that is what i meant due to who I am...it breaks my heart - and make me feel unloved. It effectively makes me question if Ive invested more in you than you in me. And it also annoys the crap out of me to find that you call me in for questioning every time on the same pattern (Ne-dom elitism?) that I've explained a hundred times to you now, just because *to you*, it still doesn't make sense. It's exhausting to non-stop have the burden of proof put upon you and have your loyalty questioned like that. And I experience it as extremely disrespectful - though I'm aware none of this is likely to be meant this way.

But yeah, that makes me grant you your wish - keeping you at arm's length and appreciating your friendship from a distance.

The friend used in the example is an ISFJ who struggles with the balance between trusting her tertiary Ti and overly relying on it as well as overvaluing the mastery of it, which riddles her with anxiety. She subsequently feels both in awe and at risk of being played when around NTPs.