[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[miss fortune]

so now you make it sound like I'm not awesome and special?

 

[CzeCze]

so now you make it sound like I'm not awesome and special?

I don't know if BlueWing is going to respond so here's

Oooh, so now I'm curious.

How'd you do it??

 

[miss fortune]

I quit- which pissed off the powers that be (Nationals) who rained fire and brimstone down on the evil ENTJs! (figuratively of course!)

They also felt really bad after that, so I guess somewhere deep down in there ENTJs do have hearts!

 

[CzeCze]

Oh mang, isn't that kind of 'hand of god' intervention the BEST! Did the ENTJ's squirm? Were they publicly castigated? Am I immature for getting immense gleeful pleasure in the public humilation of my enemies? I smile like this IRL when this happens --> But only on the inside. Because I am a L-A-D-Y. Hahahaha.

Are all your fences mended? And is the ENFP still going to quit?

 

[miss fortune]

the enfp is in- I'm out (I had to quit to get someone from nationals to listen)- and the national board is making the fraternity quit some of the sadistic hazing methods that they were using and closing down the room where they all hang out on campus and gossip, so I guess that some good came out of that!

They were apparently squirming VERY uncomfortably because one of the high national officers showed up to enforce civility! (vengance can be awesome!)

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

The problem with ENTJ's is that they try to run a plan, organization or strategy, and they have probably mobilized all forces for their cause. They have probably gathered a herd of people that obey them, and they can argument by the force of their followers. So with an organizational issue, I would base my argument on the basis of practicalities that I could do. I would have to use the values/practicalities/persons of the organization/strategy against itself, and to make the ENTJ see that it is incoherent/inefficient/incapable in a way that I could exploit it/improve it.

Even ENTJ logical structures are more like organizations than pure thought, so I would make a similar kind of approach.

 

[wildcat]

The problem with ENTJ's is that they try to run a plan, organization or strategy, and they have probably mobilized all forces for their cause. They have probably gathered a herd of people that obey them, and they can argument by the force of their followers. So with an organizational issue, I would base my argument on the basis of practicalities that I could do. I would have to use the values/practicalities/persons of the organization/strategy against itself, and to make the ENTJ see that it is incoherent/inefficient/incapable in a way that I could exploit it/improve it.

Even ENTJ logical structures are more like organizations than pure thought, so I would make a similar kind of approach.

Incomprehensible gibberish.

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Incomprehensible gibberish.

You sort it out, tiger

 

[FDG]

Yes, ENTJs, as all TJs tend to, have a compulsive advice giving syndrome.

Thus, when they bark orders at you, they think they are rendering you a service.

On practical basis, I would agree with you, you'd be giving them your views because you think this may help them. However, now I am thinking about ENTJs who argue about complex ideas. In history of philosophy, NTJs were notorious for forcing their views on others. They did not regret being a bit myopic until they went back to introspect, only there the Introverted Intuition suggested to them that they should be a bit more charitable to the views of others. But as far as Te is concerned--what we have is a standard that is ostensible to ALL. Whoever, meets the standard is right, whoever does not, is wrong. The ENTJ takes it upon himself to move those who are in the 'wrong' towards the 'right'. For this reason we can also draw a parallel to ENFJs in comparison to INFPs. INFPs do not believe in forcing values on their children, as they make values for their own sake, for the sake of their inner world. Yet ENFJs tend to believe in very gently persuading their children to embrace their beliefs.

This isnt a remark about any ENTJ person(s), but rather a remark about how the unconscious faculty of Extroverted thinking tends to function. Moreover, this is not specific to ENTJs, but rather to the property of Extroverted Judgments (TJ/FJ), which is prominent, however, in ENTJs. As their first function is a TJ (Te).

If you meant intellectually and in the realm of ideas, then I agree with you.

I am not thinking about ENTJs on practical basis, but ENTJs who discuss complex ideas. There they will pursue the task tenaciously until their 'opponent' agrees with them, or they are proved 'wrong' in a very ostensible fashion. Last time I argued with the ENTJ in person that I've cited earlier, I had to perform reductio ad absurdum on many of his salient clauses.

What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality.

However, it is clear that EJs need an established hierarchy in order to cooperate, as otherwise they just would not know what role to hop into. The most adept leader will take it upon himself to establish hierarchy, that is likely going to be an ENTJ. I think there highly likely will be a power struggle if the two ENTJs who initially wanted to cooperate to get a task done, cannot decide which one of them is to establish the hierarchy. Moreover, the ENTJ who rescinds will resent the ENTJ leader and unless he is rendered 2nd in command, he likely will feel enough resentment to become resolute to subvert the primary guy. Not that he woud be content with being just 2nd in command, but there he may just be able to put up with it for long enough to get the project out of the way, next time he'd direct all of his energy to the one end and goal to becoming the 'primary guy', especially if that other ENTJ is also going to be involved again.

We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.

 

[hotmale]

If you meant intellectually and in the realm of ideas, then I agree with you.



What else? I actually enjoy being proved wrong if I really am, so that I can incorporate the real truth into my model of reality.

Agreed, I have also noted these characteristics in ENTJs. I think there is an overlapping of certain values, when someone acts out of insubordination. Since ENTJs regard loyalty as very important, when someone attempting to (perhaps inadvertently) damage the overall goals of the organization, then I can see the ENTJ cutting that individual out without a second glance.

In the way that this also personal relationships, I think this is the reason why ENTJs have no problem leaving a troubled relationship.

We may call to our aid the concept of absolute and comparative advantage in this case. A task is to be done, and if both parties are sufficiently healthy, they will readily recognize which one of the two is the fastest at its execution. If a project involves more than one task, division of labor will assure maximum efficiency, either by absolute (i.e. each party is better at one specific thing than the other) or by comparative (i.e. one party is better at everything, but he is better off at investing time into what he's the best at). Power struggles are present only when one of the subject is unwilling to concede that the other has a superior specific set of skills.

Yes, which is why ENTJs make great leaders- because they are not competitive with their staff. There is no need to think in the ENTJ's mindset that he/she is the best at absolutely everything- and since ENTJs can easily recognize a person's skillsets from the onset, it's easier to integrate them rather than attempt subterfuge. The only conflict I can see is if two ENTJs are sexually attracted to each other, and attempt to compete by trying to impress/outdo the other, but usually those are probably more the playful sort, not fight to the death type interaction.

Just my observations here!

 

[Maha Raj]

just don't mess with ENTJs because....they are more logical and correct than you are! i just love to have an ENTJ as a brother...

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

Bah, ENTJ's too may need their plans put together. Go, improve them, show their errors. Dominate ENTJ's, establish your command and then leave them wonder what hit them, while stopping to care about their supposed power against you. Make them doubt themselves. Show that they are uninformed. Show that suboptimal results follow from their premises. Then if they suggest an ineffective solution, beat it down with giving your (working) solution in the same breath. Then leave the sense of feeling that you are not interested of this domination thing, you just want to bring processes to the good conclusions, and you'll resent any domineering behaviour. Be determined, even a bit harsh, but respectful in all that, and you find arguing with an ENTJ quite productive. This is more educational for the ENTJ if you seem to desire less of an ego boost than the ENTJ.

If you can't improve their work, show good procedures or you are afraid of them, you can forget about arguing with them.

If you want to establish a long relationship with them (friend, acquintance, business, etc), don't show the desire to beat them down totally; instead, maintain enough common ground that they believe to have some control over you. In reality, we have control over others, and ENTJ feel ok to have clearly defined controls over one another, if they feel the lack of freedom is justified by the profits gained from the relationship. It helps if the lack of freedom is the usual standard for the kind of relationship. Don't expect anything extra.

this is just been a big, fat IMHO speak.

 

[SolitaryWalker]

just don't mess with ENTJs because....they are more logical and correct than you are! i just love to have an ENTJ as a brother...

Older brother?

 

[FDG]

Bah, ENTJ's too may need their plans put together. Go, improve them, show their errors. Dominate ENTJ's, establish your command and then leave them wonder what hit them, while stopping to care about their supposed power against you. Make them doubt themselves. Show that they are uninformed. Show that suboptimal results follow from their premises.

I just want to say, that when somebody does that I don't feel dominated. I generally even ask directly other people for more information since it's the fastest way to get it, rather than waiting for them to trumple upon me.

Then if they suggest an ineffective solution, beat it down with giving your (working) solution in the same breath.

Why do you have to beat it down? Why not just suggesting and pointing out the flaws? What would be the difference?

Be determined, even a bit harsh, but respectful in all that, and you find arguing with an ENTJ quite productive. This is more educational for the ENTJ if you seem to desire less of an ego boost than the ENTJ.

Being harsh doesn't truly work for me, just as it doesn't work for the majority of people. Anything spoken to me in a commanding tone is registered as wrong.

I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.

 

[alcea rosea]

You don't.

Seriously, I'd like to know the answer. In my experience, there's not much 'point' in it.

I agree. I haven't succeeded to make any kind of point when disagreeing with an ENTJ...

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I just want to say, that when somebody does that I don't feel dominated. I generally even ask directly other people for more information since it's the fastest way to get it, rather than waiting for them to trumple upon me.

I didn't mean that ENTJ would feel being dominated by having their errors pointed out. That would have to be done with other ways, if at all. In the best arguments, there would be no such domination game going on. More on this in later responses, below.

Why do you have to beat it down? Why not just suggesting and pointing out the flaws? What would be the difference?

I just used an exaggaration to express the same idea. I'd say it would be useless to waste time by kicking a dead horse. On the contrary, I'd suggest for the person arguing a point with an ENTJ to immediately (and confidently) to suggest their own solutions after the errors in the previous solution have been pointed out.

Being harsh doesn't truly work for me, just as it doesn't work for the majority of people. Anything spoken to me in a commanding tone is registered as wrong.

I won't comment on the last part, because it's frankly disgusting to think relationships with other people as a place where control issues ensue.

A matter of language and tone, and a point of view. Another person's war is other person's conversation. My intent was to see the issue from the POV of a gentler soul, and exaggarate it a bit.

I see ENTJ as someone prone to using scare tactics. It's good if you don't recognize this from yourself. If they are appeals to consequences, scaring the other with the law in an inappropriate situation, if it's the use of body language, tone of voice, anything.. well, those can also be handled by being unimpressed, calm and just handling the issues raised. The other option would be to give them back the same treatment. Of course there will have to be some substance to back it all up. It also demands careful balance to match the other person's force and not to go overboard. One has to keep cool if the things get hot.

Nobody will get ENTJ's appreciation by being too hostile in a given situation, too harsh, etc.. but using some of that force can work as a reminder to how unpleasant things can go. With balanced participants, people notice where they've gotten themselves into, and back off a bit and continue the conversation in a calmer tone.

I recommend to match ENTJ's level of hostility. If there's none, don't do it. If there's some, match it. What I mean by hostility is something along the line of assertivity and aggression, being demanding, (seemingly) inconsiderate, A-type person, confrontative, goal-driven, etc. All of these behaviours can be justified in a situation. Usually people don't use the full power of the law to their advantage, or will be hesitating to consider all the negotiable items. I'd advise against such less-than-100%-effort in an argument with ENTJ.

All normal rules for reasonable behaviour still apply.

Again, if you don't participate in unneeded power struggles, use scaring tactics etc, congratulations. I don't believe you to do so. Indeed, your forum presence has earned you a reputation as a most reasonable and well-informed person.

 

[Maha Raj]

yes, older brother...

 

[Ghost of the dead horse]

I agree. I haven't succeeded to make any kind of point when disagreeing with an ENTJ...

It's hard for an F.

 

[Maha Raj]

ENTJs are perfectionist... Unlike an ENTP, they wouldn't start a job unless they are fully confident, that they have everything to complete that job. So the arguing is same. When they are arguing they have the conclusion ready in their head. Only thing they do is to bring you down to that conclusion. Only time you win with ENTJ is when you (may be coincidently) have the same conclusion as they have.

ENTJs love to learn... so you can use this technique... find out what they know... guess what they might have in their head as a conclusion. Agree to that conclusion first. Then invite them to argue about a new topic they don't know. They will sit there listening... shoot all your knowledge make them thing u r smart... then conclude it with your own conclusion.

They may go research and come back and fight with you with their own conclusion... but if that's research is going to take a long time, they wouldn't waste their time... so they simply let u win...

ENTPs are also perfectionist by they don't "finish" the job. They don't have any fucking conclusions... or u could say they have millions of conclusions... and they will prove to you that ur conclusion is also possible and go on and on explaining how it is possible... and start inverting new things that can be possible and ...go on blah blah blah...

 

[runvardh]

It's hard for an F.

That's why I don't argue, I let them fail without me. I'll impart my wisdom when they come crawling back begging for my input.