[ENTJ] how do you argue with an ENTJ?

[miss fortune]

I'm in an organization which has an abnormally high percentage of ENTJs, which is vaguely scary! This usually isn't a problem, but some of them have recently stepped over the line on an issue, and I, as the wise old bourbon drinking grandma on the porch of the organization, am expected to set them straight. Not cool.

How on earth does one argue a point with ENTJs? They seem so entirely convinced that they are more logical and correct than I am! I'd really appreciate some insight since I'm kind of dreading confronting them. I can play organization politics and threaten to air long buried skeletons with the best of them, but I'm kind of scared of large groups of people especially ENTJs.

Please help?

 

[Domino]

You'd think I'd know how, being best friends with one for 16 years, but I really have no way to argue with them without it becoming a lawyerly point-by-point ad infinitum. I have to employ the "Twin with The Mighty Defusing Power of the ENFP" on her. Always works. ALWAYS. She reduces their arguments to mere cinders. I still don't know how she does it. lol

You can borrow my Twin. She'll take down your whole office!

 

[cascadeco]

You don't.

Seriously, I'd like to know the answer. In my experience, there's not much 'point' in it. Assuming they've thought out their opinion on a matter and aren't in the gathering-information stages, it's best to silently pretend to agree, or else the discussion will be endless. They'll need to have the last word anyway. Also, they're always right, and heaven forbid you disagree with them.

Maybe I've just experienced a more stubborn one?

I'm not 'intimated' by them per se, but I guess I've learned it's best not to voluntarily state my opinion if it's in opposition to theirs. If they ask my viewpoint, I'd state what it is, but I have no debating/argumentative instincts in me, so I'll always let them have the last word, even if I completely disagree.

 

[Domino]

Maybe I've just experienced a more stubborn one?

NOPE! They're all like that, God love 'em!

 

[substitute]

Very calmly. And in stages. You have to think of it as a sort of war, in a way... just drop the odd bomb and wait for the full extent of its implications to sink in with him before you take him to the next stage. I've often set it as a goal to, over the course of a week, persuade one of my ENTJ's that he's not entirely correct about something.

If you're hoping to have a particular way of putting something that will make him respond straight away with "ah yes, I see you're right, well in that case we'll go with your suggestion", then you might as well bark at the moon. I mean, I can do that with my ENTJ's sometimes, but only because I've built up a lot of trust and worked hard at it for years with them.

Actually I'm not sure how I do it - I only know that I'm always the one sitting on his desk getting him to laugh and joke before he says "You know what? Fuck it, let's do it your way, it's probably better anyway", when everyone else is hiding in the filing cabinet...

Just don't go for an instant confrontation, whatever you do. There's my advice, coming from years of trouble-free (relatively) ENTJ maintenance

edit - oh, and if you can make him think as much as possible of your point is actually his idea, that works too.

 

[Domino]

edit - oh, and if you can make him think as much as possible of your point is actually his idea, that works too.

A clever approach! So noted!

 

[miss fortune]

This is an issue where some ENTJs are trying to kick a member (ENFP) out of the organization for not always doing what they say to do. Unfortunatly, the rules that they've put in place are rediculous and contrary to the national branch of the organizations laws. A lot of other members of the organization feel the same way that I do about the issue but are more afraid of the clique of ENTJs than I am. The vote is on Sunday, and several people have come to me expecting me to be able to stop the ENFP from getting expelled and get rid of the rediculous rule at the same time. Am I doomed to hope to stop these people in one hour?!

 

[miss fortune]

fuck- the damned computer didn't accept my italics even though they were entered in same way I use them on Word. grrrrrr

 

[substitute]

A clever approach! So noted!

It's SO not easy though... even when I know him really well I have to catch him off guard... Ne's a definite advantage.

You know that part in the Simpson's movie where they're trying to persuade Mr Burns of something, and Apu starts trying to persuade him to 'look within his heart to see that the only right thing to do for the benefit of mankind etc etc', and Smithers is standing behind gesturing furiously 'no, no, no!' just before Burns releases the hounds?

Take note of that... lol

 

[substitute]

The vote is on Sunday, and several people have come to me expecting me to be able to stop the ENFP from getting expelled and get rid of the rediculous rule at the same time. Am I doomed to hope to stop these people in one hour?!

In one hour? Yes, most definitely, abandon hope here.

However, if between now and Sunday, you can persuade someone the guy trusts to have a word with him for you, then you might have a glimmer of hope.

 

[miss fortune]

there are several ENTJs (that's what the scary part is!) and I'm really not willing to let my friend get kicked out! Does the possession of devastating information on a couple of them make a difference at all? And how do you get an N to realize that S people aren't idiots?

 

[FDG]

Well first of all you have to understand something: we are not debating for the sake of being right. We get nothing out of having erroneous information, so when we insist it's because we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.

So, the easiest way is:
- Point out how reality is different, if this is the issue
- Point out how the consequences of their behavior/decisions will lead to a course of action that doesn't coincide with what they have predicted

 

[miss fortune]

so having the law on my side helps?

) feels a slight glimmer of hope!)

 

[FDG]

so having the law on my side helps?

) feels a slight glimmer of hope!)

Well I don't know what the issue is, it sounds more complicated than I may have thought. Bear in mind that if the individuals are unhealthy, no advice will be enough.

 

[substitute]

there are several ENTJs (that's what the scary part is!) and I'm really not willing to let my friend get kicked out! Does the possession of devastating information on a couple of them make a difference at all? And how do you get an N to realize that S people aren't idiots?

Hey! I don't think S people are idiots!!

I don't know... it depends on your relationship with any/all of them. Do they know you particularly well? Do they trust you? Have you earned some merit in their eyes for reliable, hard work of a high standard? Looking from their POV, do you think they'd value you and your opinions?

If not, then you're lost here... though it can be built up for future occasions. Blackmail won't work really... they'll just fire you as well and 'come out' of their own accord with whatever the secret was, being sure to spin it not only in their favour, but mentioning how you were going to 'twist' it to blackmail them. Always backfires, that one.

Is there a way you could put it to them that it's in their interest not to fire this person? Or the company's interest?

we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.

Yes... I see this in my lot. I laughed affectionately when I read that

So, the easiest way is:
- Point out how reality is different, if this is the issue
- Point out how the consequences of their behavior/decisions will lead to a course of action that doesn't coincide with what they have predicted

This tends to be my function in the lives of the ENTJ's I know. It does work, but you have to do it calmly and using evidence and examples. Point out that when they were drawing their conclusions about the nature of reality, there were a few bits of crucial information that they neglected to take into account. You shouldn't have to go far to find plenty of examples

(no offence, dear ones... lol)

edit - if possible, spin it to look like it's someone else's fault that they missed that information - that the people who were supposed to give it to them witheld it from them - this will help them to save face, something quite important.

 

[cascadeco]

Well first of all you have to understand something: we are not debating for the sake of being right. We get nothing out of having erroneous information, so when we insist it's because we genuinely believe that the world is the way we see it, and that other opinions are "wrong" simply because they don't represent accurately reality.

This is what is funny to me. I had a fallout with an ENTJ because she refused to acknowledge that someone else (me) could have a different view of reality that was equally valid. In other words, I felt I was open to her views, but she was not open to mine in the slightest, and there was no room in her little worldview for my perspective.

 

[miss fortune]

The group is a professional fraternity and I'm one of the last of the "old guard" of members. I've always beleived that we should treat pledges as human beings, which means that since I was initiated I've helped pledged study, got them out of trouble with actives, fed them home cooked meals and such- this group of ENTJs all were recipients of my help. Unfortunatly, most of them seem to have forgotten that they needed some help to get where they are now and are acting exactly like the actives they needed protection from. I'm still the one who's nice to pledges and advocates for them, which puts me at odds with the people who I helped get to where they are.

The pledge in question (the ENFP) is a friend of mine and is a lot more competent than most of the ENTJs were as pledges, but she occasionally talks back and doesn't always stick to status quo. When the ENTJs (there's a clique of 3 of them) decided to try and force her to do something that is blatently against national fraternity law, she refused, and now they're trying to get her expelled for being disrespectful.

Since I have some influence in the organization and am the only one who knows fraternity law I'm supposed to convince them to drop it.

Hope this clarifies things a bit!

 

[substitute]

Yes that does make a big difference. It means you are in a good position to add to what you say, following the advice of FDG there, that since you've known them you've helped them a lot of times but you've never asked for anything, so you'd like them to consider this for you. Only say that after you've given the explanation, clearly and calmly, of the bigger picture and how their recent decisions could potentially harm the organization if they become too habitual and ingrained.

You could point out the information they've missed as perhaps the good stuff your friend does, that benefits everyone, and how they'd all be losing out on a great asset if they didn't give her another chance. Say she's just new and needs time to learn how to go through the proper channels to get things done.

But if they do agree to it, you've also got to let your friend know that they've got to try and rein in the impulsiveness a bit, cos you won't be able to rescue her a second time.

I still think you'll have to find a suitable scapegoat for them though, to blame for why they didn't realise the damage they were doing. Pride is big up there on ENTJ's vice list, and finding a scapegoat to take the blame (even if it's you - "I should've told you this before and I'm sorry I didn't, but I'm telling you now and it's still not too late...") for their lack of regard for other info is the ENTJ equivalent of couching something in soft/nice/gentle tones that reassure them that you still like them, for the ENFJ.

 

[miss fortune]

thanks!

 

[Domino]

It's SO not easy though... even when I know him really well I have to catch him off guard... Ne's a definite advantage.

You know that part in the Simpson's movie where they're trying to persuade Mr Burns of something, and Apu starts trying to persuade him to 'look within his heart to see that the only right thing to do for the benefit of mankind etc etc', and Smithers is standing behind gesturing furiously 'no, no, no!' just before Burns releases the hounds?

Take note of that... lol

LOL!!! *steeples fingers* Excellent.